i have little input and knowledge on the matchup but i don't see how mewtwo beats zelda anyway, you need to present a more convincing argument with some data or theorizing first
all i've seen the past few pages (and probably most of the thread) concerning the matchup is a stagnant discussion with people calling each other out and trying to use the logic of "you're wrong so this is right" without anybody actually putting down some hard, direct argument to their ideas
if you really want mewtwo to have the advantage on this chart, i suggest you prove how much you care by making a long *** ****ing post about the matchup and seeing what other people think about it cause we can't read your mind bro.
p.s. even if that was the entire argument...mewtwo IS fat, zelda DOES kick him, shadow balls ARE slow and sometimes ineffective, and that ain't falco
I have done this MU write up probably about 4 times now. I have answered with MU details several times. I was just avoiding doing it again.
I even went as far as placing the entire M2 vs Zelda debate into this group.
http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2232
not to mention....M2 has the advantage on the chart. It was changed a long time ago. The other mewtwo players agreed pretty unanimously that m2 had the advantage lol, as did umbreon who at one time main mewtwo and zelda at a high level. none of the top zeldas had anything to say on the matter.
Kao, you've stated that M2 does better on platforms, but never explicitly why.
M2 has excellent vertical range. Uptilt, dj-c Uair both are good at keep pressure on the bottom of ppls shields while they are on a platform. M2s nair is amazing shield pressure from below and really good at shield poking. If u do it correctly you can even follow up your nairdirectly into a falling uair. Both uptilt, and uair beat zeldas dair. Point being that from above she cant really defend herself and thats why its a bad position for her to be in. Compare that to falcos dair or falcons stomp. M2 doesnt really have an adv on them from below for that reason.
Zelda being slow and floaty and having alot of startup frames on her teleport will have a bit of trouble getting down without taking damage. If she jumps oos she is still above m2 and there is a solid chance she will get hit with a uair.
around 160% uair is a kill move on spacies. so its respectable vs floaties when u sweet spot it. you will want to avoid being knocked up into the air where u are at a disadvantage due to being floaty and being completely out ranged from below.
You've also never stated how m2 gets inside, what he does ONCE he gets inside to combo her
You attack as zelda is landing. Commonly zelda players sh double bair. When the 2nd bair comes out you WD in with a d tilt, ftilt, grab. Its possibly to use djc fair, or nair but they are risky options and wont always go in your favor. At higher percents u can use a ftilt to trick DI because with bad DI and sweet spot its gonna send zelda at a low angle and it hits pretty hard. The reason this works is because the proper DI for dtilt is either CC or DI away. Both of those are bad DI for the ftilt. If u DI the dtilt poorly you get fair>uair. if u DI the Di correctly u get fair>uair or nair>attempted followup.
CC dtilt isnt too great for zelda because she doesnt have the grab range or the grab speed to beat spaced dtilt spam. M2 has IASA frames on his dtilt and can shield b4 I lightning kick comes out.
I know m2 can out cc sheik in a tilt war so Im making an assumption that his dtilt would beat zeldas cc dtilt. Im pretty sure it has more range anyway.
To reiterate, M2 uses his same standard combos that he uses on everyone else. WD dtilt>fair, WD grab>dtilt, fair. WD dtilt>nair> sb, WD grab>dtilt>nair>sb If zelda is CC you can ftilt to knock her down and tech chase(she will miss that tech anyway so u just follow up with djc fair or dtilt into fair.)
The sb at the end of the combo isnt guaranteed but it works decently. Also when I say grab its an assumed dthrow. and lets not forget that getting that grab turns into upthrow kills. FD as early as 92 and as late as 101 if they are fresh.
how shadowballs help (seriously, please explain this to me) and what she can do to counter them and as a result what m2 can do to counter that etc. etc.
Shadow balls are not an unstoppable force of plasma matter. They are just there to help control space. Zelda isnt a fox, falco, or a captain falcon kinda character....so running around them and jumping over them isnt really an option.
Mewtwo is basically just waiting for zelda's reaction to the shadow ball. her options are as follows:
-powershield
-nayrus love
-sidestep,roll, Dj over
-shield
-get hit
A decent option. Doesnt hurt m2 as much because powershielded projectiles have 1/2ed damage and knock back. but it would be the best option for zelda. Its not easy tho, shadowballs do not travel the same path, they oscillate and the speed varies. You cant reliably powershield them as well as a falco laser.
too much cool down. in that case m2 can just teleport and grab the ending of naryrus love. Its a terrible counter to spammed projectiles. M2 doesnt throw them from far range because he cant follow them from such a distance. always mid to close. aka a dash+WD away.
Rolling doesnt solve the problem. it just gives u worse stage position.(if u roll away). the Shadowball is still gonna hit u lol and ur closer to the edge. U might be able to roll inside and **** m2 up if he isnt expecting it. but you should be able to nair or grab on reaction. Double jumping puts u well above m2 and u will get uair or nair almost for sure. Hopping up to a platform puts you in the same position I previously described.
sometimes its just a good idea to shield them. If I approach with d tilt then there is a chance u wont take any damage and we will just reset positions. If I approach with grab then u just got grabbed. It is possible for m2 to use dtilts and djc fair on zeldas shield without worrying about getting shield grabbed due to her slow grab.
if you get hit, then I can just grab or dtilt. Its would I would have been doing anyway so its not like I have to react to anything.
M2 can get inside without using sbs but they just give m2 a little more control over the situation.
Mana, you're ******** if you think that Din's Fire pressure actually exists at all. Tho I do agree that Zelda probably wins, and its in large part to her only needing to hit m2 like 4 or 5 times.
He is just messin around. Im pretty sure he doesnt actually believe it.
also, in general Zelda does solidly vs. Floaties, and since m2 is easily one of the worst floaties in the game, I'm curious as to how he somehow wins this matchup.
M2 is just ground based. his approach is WD into dtilt spam. zelda ***** most floaties when they attempt to jump at her for an attack. He happens to have a consistent combo game that starts from the ground and goes up vs floaty characters. his grab also is a kill move and combos into fair/uair which can kill.
I cant really answer this question as well because I dont know the specifics of say luigi vs zelda or samus vs zelda. M2 jus has a ground game, usable combos, kill moves out of grab and a decent grab/speed range.
Zelda doesnt really have an solid approach. M2 isnt limited by the stage underneath him. If zelda pushes him to the edge he can just teleport back to the center to regain stage control or use a dj bair and rise above zelda. some of the things that zelda has going for her dont completely apply in this MU. like m2 will rarely approach her from the air. His ground based attack is pretty safe vs zelda since he shouldnt get shield grabbed and he has enough time to shield a kick oos.
Ive actually answered all of these questions b4. more than once. I hope this helps a little if not then maybe I didnt a bad job trying to explain it. But Im not claiming there is a **** taking place. Only that on the very simplest of levels. M2 can avoid getting kicked, while still dealing damage to zelda and subsequently getting a kill. Its only a slight advantage. Zelda makes it close because she does only have to hit m2 a few times for a stock. But she honestly will not have an easy time getting those kicks off when the MU is played correctly. M2 controls the tempo of the MU and can regain stage control at will.
