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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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t3h Icy

Smash Master
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This chart is now outdated. Refer to this thread for the new match-up chart project.

After how well the chart for SSB went, I've been leading the project of one for Melee now. Differing from the SSB Match-Up Chart, this one has numbers. I held off on making one for Melee though as there was another one in the works, but it died and was incomplete, so I've been continuing it with my own style. However, while we do have a completed version of the chart using an advantage system for determining match-ups, the more precise version using numbers is very incomplete. I recommend using the advantage chart as the main reference.

Advantage System Chart

(Note: The order for this chart is not based on tiers, but rather the weighted values of the chart itself, so character placements may be out of place such as Sheik being second for example)



For the numerical version, the left side's character represents the character board, while the top represents the opponent. In other words, Fox on the horizontal and Falco on the vertical is the Fox board's opinion on Falco, whereas Falco on the horizontal and Fox on the vertical is the Falco board's opinion on Fox. Chances are, there are mixed opinions about the same characters.



These charts are based on the New MBR Ruleset and that Wobbling is banned.

My opinions on match-ups are of equal value as anyone else and are factored in with them. These charts iare based on the community's opinion and not mine alone.

Discussion Threads (Numerical Chart)

Bowser
Captain Falcon
Doc
DK
Falco
Fox
Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff
Kirby (Different thread)
Link
Luigi
Mario
Marth
Mewtwo
Ness
Peach
Pichu
Pikachu
Roy
Samus
Sheik
Yoshi
Young Link
Zelda

Worldjem7's Chart Contributors

(It was used as a base for this chart when it was first created)

Idea, Kirbykaze, knihT, Miggz, Phanna, RaynEX, Skler, Taj278, Unknown522, Worldjem7

Advantage System Chart Contributors

-ACE-, -Darc-, `DNS`, *P*L*U*R*, 1048576, Alphicans, Armada, AXE 09, BBQ°, Binx, Blistering Speed, Bloshi, Blue Yoshi, Bob Money, BunBun, ChivalRuse, Codi, Cosmo!, Crimson)S(hadow, Dark Hart, Dark Sonic, Divinokage, DJ Nintendo, Dogysamich, Dr Peepee, ETWIST51294, Europhoria, everlasting yayuhzz, Fletch , Fly_Amanita, Gustav Wind, HugS™, john!, JPOBS, h!tboxexplo!ter, HomeMadeWaffles, Hungrybox, I.B, Idea, ihavespaceballs, KAOSTAR, Kira-, knihT, KirbyKaze, kupo15, Kyu Puff, Laijan, Lovage, Mad J, Magus420, Mahone, MaNgO, MarsFool!, Merkuri, MEXICAN, Mind Trick, Ministry, Mogwai, n1000, N64, Niko45 , Nintendude1189, NJzFinest, otg, P. O. F., Pakman, PEEF!, Pink Reaper, pockyD, QERB, Reneblade, rhan, Ripple, Scar, Shiri, Shroomed, Silent Wolf, Skler, SleepyK, Sveet, t3h Icy, Taj278, TheCrimsonBlur, TheManaLord, TheZhuKeeper, TresChikon, unknown522, V3ctorMan, vgmastaricky, Victra, Vulcan55, Wingz35, x After Dawn x, xbombr, XIF

Update History

December 1st:
Initial Chart
December 1st: Changed the colours, added character avatars
December 3rd: Doc = Samus, Falco >>> Ness, Falco > Sheik, Fox > Sheik, Fox >>> Yoshi, Samus > ICs
December 3rd: Re-ordered the chart, added data tables
December 12th: Doc = Luigi, Doc > Y.Link, DK = Yoshi, Falco >>> DK, Falco >>> Mewtwo, Falco >> Roy, Falcon = ICs, Falcon > Luigi, Falcon = Peach, Fox > Jigglypuff, Fox >> Roy, Ganon > DK, Ganon = Mario, Ganon = Pikachu, G&W = Yoshi, Jigglypuff >> Mario, Kirby = Pichu, Mario > Link, Mario >>> Pichu, Marth >>> Ness, Marth > Samus
December 13th: Revived the look of the chart
December 16th: Falco >>> Link, Falco >>> Yoshi, Falcon >>> Bowser, Falcon >>> Link, Falcon >>> Ness, Falcon >>> Pichu, Fox >>> Link, Ganon = Doc, ICs >> Yoshi, Link >>> Bowser, Marth >> Link, Pikachu = Link
December 21st: Doc = Mario, Doc > Zelda, Falco = ICs, Falco > Mario, Falcon > Doc, Falcon > Mario, Falcon >>> Mewtwo, Falcon > Samus, G&W = Roy, ICs >> DK, ICs > Pikachu, ICs >>> Roy, Jigglypuff = Doc, Jigglypuff >>> Ness, Jigglypuff = Peach, Kirby = Bowser, Luigi > DK, Marth >> DK, Marth >>> G&W, Peach >>> Kirby, Pikachu > Y.Link, Samus >>> Roy, Samus >>> Yoshi, Sheik >>> Link, Sheik > Mario, Y.Link >> Zelda
December 23rd: Christmas Edition Chart
December 27th: Back to the regular colours
January 1st, 2010: Doc > G&W, Doc >>> Kirby, Doc > Mewtwo, Doc > Ness, Falco > Luigi, Falcon > DK, Fox > ICs, Marth > ICs, Marth >> Yoshi, Peach = Doc, Peach = Mario, Pikachu > Yoshi, Samus > DK, Sheik > Doc, Sheik >> Kirby
January 31st: Falco >> DK, Falco >>> Y.Link, G&W > Kirby, Ganon > Mario, Jigglypuff = Falcon, Jigglypuff >> Kirby, Jigglypuff = Sheik, Peach = Samus, Peach > Mario, Sheik >>> Kirby
February 28th: Bowser = Yoshi, Doc > DK, Doc > Pikachu, Fox = Samus, Ganon > Samus, Y.Link > Link, Marth = Jigglypuff, Sheik >>> Pikachu
March 6th: Changed the look of the chart significantly
March 6th: Falco = Samus, Jigglypuff >> Yoshi, Mario > Mewtwo, Pikachu > Mewtwo
March 28th: Changed the look of the chart
March 28th: Fox >>> G&W Sheik >>> Zelda
April 19th: Falco = Jigglypuff, Falco >> Luigi, Falco >> Pikachu, Falco = Sheik
April 23rd: Jigglypuff >> DK, Jigglypuff > Doc, Jigglypuff > Falcon
May 3rd: Falco >> Falcon, Fox >> Falcon, Jigglypuff > Marth, Sheik > Falcon
May 8th: Falcon > Peach, Jigglypuff > Peach, Peach > Doc
May 14th: Fox >> Ganon, Ganon > Doc, Ganon > Luigi, Ganon > Link, Ganon > Young Link, Ganon > Zelda, Peach > Zelda
May 18th: DK = Luigi, Ganon >> ICs, ICs > DK, ICs > G&W, ICs = Link, ICs > Mario, ICs > Mewtwo, ICs = Puff, ICs > Sheik
May 25th: DK > Samus, Jigglypuff > Samus, Samus >> Yoshi, Samus = Zelda, Sheik > Samus
May 29th: DK = Doc, DK > Luigi, Doc = Jigglypuff, Doc = Zelda, Link > Samus, Samus > Mario
May 31st: Mario = Zelda
June 3rd: DK = Link, DK > Yoshi, Kirby > Bowser, Kirby = Link, Kirby = Mewtwo, Kirby > Roy, Luigi > Link, Mewtwo > DK
June 13th: Luigi > Mewtwo, Mewtwo > Kirby, Mewtwo = Yoshi, Mr.G&W > Mewtwo, Samus > Mewtwo
July 12th: Change the look of the chart significantly
July 12th: Mewtwo > Zelda, Mr.G&W >> Kirby, Peach > Kirby, Zelda > Mr.G&W
July 12th: Beginning converting to numbers
July 12th: Fox 50:50 Marth, Fox 55:45 Sheik
July 15th: Falco 50:50 Fox, Falco 50:50 Jigglypuff
July 17th: Falco 50:50 Marth, Falco 55:45 Sheik, Fox 55:45 Jigglypuff, Sheik 60:40 Marth
July 21st: Falco 65:35 Falcon, Fox 65:35 Falcon, Jigglypuff 55:45 Marth, Jigglypuff 60:40 Sheik
July 27th: Falcon 55:45 Marth, Falcon 60:40 Peach, Fox 65:35 Peach, Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon, Jigglypuff 55:45 Peach, Marth 60:40 Peach, Peach 55:45 Falco, Sheik 60:40 Falcon, Sheik 55:45 Peach
September 17th: Revamped everything
September 19th: Falco 50:50 Fox, Falco 50:50 Jigglypuff, Falcon 60:40 Doc, Fox 50:50 Falco, Fox 55:45 Sheik, Fox 50:50 Marth, Fox 60:40 Peach, Marth 50:50 Fox, Samus 40:60 Ganondorf, Samus 40:60 Sheik, Yoshi 10:90 Sheik, Zelda 40:60 Jigglypuff, Zelda 60:40 ICs
September 20th: Falcon 60:40 Ganon, Falcon 60:40 Samus, Doc 35:65 Marth, Doc 35:65 Sheik, Kirby 50:50 Bowser, Kirby 30:70 DK, Kirby 35:65 Doc, Kirby 30:70 Falco, Kirby 45:55 Falcon, Kirby 0:100 Fox, Kirby 35:65 Ganon, Kirby 40:60 ICs, Kirby 35:65 Jigglypuff, Kirby 45:55 Link, Kirby 25:75 Luigi, Kirby 30:70 Mario, Kirby 35:65 Marth, Kirby 35:65 Mewtwo, Kirby 30:70 Mr. G&W, Kirby 45:55 Ness, Kirby 40:60 Peach, Kirby 65:35 Pichu, Kirby 40:60 Pikachu, Kirby 55:45 Roy, Kirby 40:60 Samus, Kirby 35:65 Sheik, Kirby 50:50 Yoshi, Kirby 35:65 Y.Link, Kirby 45:55 Zelda, Luigi 40:60 Fox, Luigi 30:70 Sheik, Roy 10:90 ICs, Roy 20:80 Sheik
September 22nd:Doc 40:60 Falcon, Fox 60:40 Falcon, Fox 60:40 Pikachu, Fox 55:45 Samus, ICs 50:50 Falco, ICs 45:55 Fox, ICs 35:65 Ganon, ICs 30:70 Peach, Jigglypuff 50:50 Falco, Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon, Jigglypuff 40:60 Fox, Jigglypuff 55:45 Peach, Marth 50:50 Falcon, Marth 60:40 Mario, Marth 60:40 Peach, Marth 40:60 Sheik, Peach 30:70 Fox, Roy 30:70 Peach, Y.Link 80:20 Bowser, Y.Link 40:60 Falcon, Y.Link 35:65 Sheik
September 22nd: Minor visual changes
September 23rd: Pikachu 35:65 Falco, Pikachu 35:65 Fox, Pikachu 40:60 Marth, Pikachu 35:65 Peach, Y.Link 45:55 Doc, Y.Link 70:30 Kirby, Y.Link 45:55 Luigi, Y.Link 50:50 Mario, Y.Link 60:40 Roy, Y.Link 45:55 Samus
October 1st: DK 50:50 Doc, DK 40:60 ICs, DK 55:45 Link, Zelda 50:50 Doc, Zelda 30:70 Falcon, Zelda 25:75 Fox, Zelda 40:60 Ganon, Zelda 30:70 Marth, Zelda 45:55 Mewtwo, Zelda 40:60 Peach, Zelda 65:35 Pichu, Zelda 70:30 Roy, Zelda 10:90 Sheik
October 7th: Ganon 55:45 Doc, Ganon 40:60 Falco, Ganon 40:60 Falcon, Ganon 35:65 Fox, Ganon 60:40 Luigi, Ganon 58:42 Mario, Ganon 45:55 Marth, Ganon 40:60 Peach, Ganon 35:65 Sheik, Jigglypuff 60:40 DK, Jigglypuff 60:40 Ganon, Jigglypuff 60:40 Link, Jigglypuff 60:40 Mario, Jigglypuff 80:20 Ness, Jigglypuff 80:20 Pichu, Jigglypuff 60:40 Pikachu, Jigglypuff 70:30 Roy, Mario 40:60 Fox, Marth 65:35 DK, Marth 60:40 Doc, Marth 55:45 Falco, Marth 55:45 Ganon, Marth 55:45 ICs, Marth 60:40 Luigi, Marth 70:30 Mewtwo, Marth 70:30 Roy, Marth 65:35 Young Link, Marth 70:30 Zelda, Mr. G&W 50:50 DK, Mr. G&W 30:70 Falco, Mr. G&W 45:55 Falcon, Mr. G&W 30:70 Fox, Mr. G&W 40:60 Marth, Mr. G&W 20:80 Sheik, Peach 75:25 ICs, Pikachu 45:55 Falcon, Pikachu 50:50 Ganon, Pikachu 30:70 ICs, Pikachu 35:65 Jigglypuff, Pikachu 20:80 Sheik
October 14th: Falcon 40:60 Sheik, Mario 45:55 Falco, Mario 45:55 Falcon, Mario 40:60 Ganon, Mario 35:65 Peach, Mewtwo 40:60 Falco, Mewtwo 25:75 Jigglypuff, Mewtwo 35:65 Marth, Mewtwo 30:70 Peach, Mewtwo 40:60 Sheik
October 14th: Put the older advantage chart up as a completed reference
October 15th: New visuals for the older chart
 

Lovage

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i dont think colors fit melee as well as ssb

for instance i wouldn't consider fox vs. sheik "even" or sheik vs. marth a "slight advantage"

numbers are where its at
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
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Well, these are from the last chart, so post anything you think is wrong and I'll fix it.

i dont think colors fit melee as well as ssb

for instance i wouldn't consider fox vs. sheik "even" or sheik vs. marth a "slight advantage"

numbers are where its at
Mmm, I've had a lot of people say that the advantage system would work better, but we'll see how this turns out.
 

x After Dawn x

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Messages
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All of these "changes" refer to the first character I mention in the sentence

Assuming 0-1, 2-3, 4, 5, 6, 7-8, 9-10

Fox vs Sheik should be switched to Slight Advantage
Falco vs Sheik should be switched to Slight Advantage
Falco vs Peach should be switched to Slight Disadvantage
Falcon vs Luigi should be switched to Slight Advantage
Falco vs Jiggs should be switched to Disadvantage (maybe...)

That's all I can think up of now. I'll post arguments / reasoning why later when I have time.

IMO the advantage-to-number system should be altered to fit more accurate double digit numbers. Anything beyond 75-25 should be a large advantage; 8-2 is not a normal advantage.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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I like this chart. Only thing I'd like to see is a different color for advantage; its way too close to even's color.

hopefully after dawn sets you straight on some of the wrong matchups, i'll post my own list later.
 

Vulcan55

Smash Lord
Joined
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Even, S.Adv, and Adv. are all very similar color-wise.
Maybe make SA the Adv. color, make Adv. the LA color, and make LA more purpley.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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IMO the advantage-to-number system should be altered to fit more accurate double digit numbers. Anything beyond 75-25 should be a large advantage; 8-2 is not a normal advantage.
Just to get a base of the chart, this was made off of the last chart, so I don't have to bring out my own opinion into the match-ups, but I intend that the number system not be used. It was only used for the base.

Even, S.Adv, and Adv. are all very similar color-wise.
Maybe make SA the Adv. color, make Adv. the LA color, and make LA more purpley.
I'll change the light blue colour in the first update.

Debating:

Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik
Falco = Sheik to Falco > Sheik
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
 

x After Dawn x

Smash Master
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agreed with vulcan.

also, this is just my opinion but, even should be anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45 (really a 5 % difference doesn't mean much in high competitive play...), 60-40 to 70-30 should be a disadvantage, and 75-25 to 95-5 should be a huge disadvantage. then again, that's assuming there's only 2 kinds of disadvantages...if you put 3 kinds of disadvantages, you could always do 50-50 even, 55-45 to 60-40 slight advantage, 65-35 to 75-25 bigger advantage, 80-20 to 95-5 a monstrous advantage. or something. not saying this should be a number chart, but the colors should at least be based loosely on the colors. thoughts?

teh icy: I can dig up some posts where even pakman said that falcon only has a slight advantage over luigi. some people even think luigi is even with falcon.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
I probably don't want to be involved in this, but for what it's worth these are my opinion on Falco.

Falco = Falco
Falco > Fox
Falco > Sheik
Falco = Marth
Falco =/< Jiggs (I think it's even but that it's a lot harder for Falco to play it because his mistakes are so costly and his victories so small, so in Bo5 sets, Jiggs has an edge and maybe even in Bo3s since they take so long)
Falco = Peach
Falco >> Falcon
Falco > ICs
Falco >> Ganon
Falco >> Doc
Falco > Samus
Falco >> Mario
Falco >> Luigi
Falco >>> DK
Falco >> Pikachu
Falco >>> Link
Falco >> Y. Link
Falco >> Zelda
Falco >> Roy
Falco >>> G&W
Falco >>> Yoshi
Falco >>> Ness
Falco >>> Bowser
Falco >>> Mewtwo
Falco >>> Pichu
Falco >>> Kirby

I'll probably catch some **** for that lower tier stuff, but if you just play campy, Falco molests the mid/low/bottom tier

also, this is just my opinion but, even should be anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45 (really a 5 % difference doesn't mean much in high competitive play...), 60-40 to 70-30 should be a disadvantage, and 75-25 to 95-5 should be a huge disadvantage. then again, that's assuming there's only 2 kinds of disadvantages...if you put 3 kinds of disadvantages, you could always do 50-50 even, 55-45 to 60-40 slight advantage, 65-35 to 75-25 bigger advantage, 80-20 to 95-5 a monstrous advantage. or something. not saying this should be a number chart, but the colors should at least be based loosely on the colors. thoughts?
The numbers are meaningless, please don't bring them up cause seriously, wtf is a "5% difference"?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I think Fox has an "advantage" over Ganon instead of a "slight advantage" (same as sheik)

I'd also argue that Ganon has a slight advantage over DK
 

Lovage

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i agree on falco having a good matchup against fox. but for this purpose i would just give it the "even" cuz in my eyes it's like a....52:48 matchup or some **** lol
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I'll help out with GaW's matchups (my opinion):

Fox >> GaW
Marth >>> GaW
Sheik >>> GaW
Falco >> GaW
Peach >>> GaW
Falcon = GaW

Fox, Falco, and Falcon are very easy to combo once a combo is started. Falcon is dead easy to edgeguard.

Falcon vs GaW is at worst very slight advantage Falcon... though I would probably say it's closer to even than anything.
 

otg

Smash Master
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Just some stuff for Doc (all IMO):

Doc =< Fox
Doc < Falco
Doc << Marth
Doc << Sheik
Doc << Falcon
Doc >= Jiggs
Doc =< Peach
Doc >= Icies
Doc =< Ganon
Doc = Samus
Doc >= Mario
Doc <= Luigi
Doc = DK
Doc >> Pikachu
Doc > Link
Doc > Y. Link
Doc = Zelda
Doc >> Roy
Doc = GaW
Doc >> Yoshi
Doc >> Ness
Doc >> Bowser
Doc >> Mewtwo
Doc >>> Pichu
Doc >>> Kirby

You might notice I did a few like =< or >= because the matchup could be considered even or a slight advantage for whoever the arrow is pointing towards. These are all IMO, but it is educated. I'm not 100% on some of the low tiers, but they are all pretty accurate. I think in the last matchup chart Dogy had a list of all the matchups in his opinion... I'll try and find that since he is probably better with matchup knowledge then myself.
 

JPOBS

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so wait, all this chart shows is the exact same thing the other matchup chart shows, except with colors?

:/
oh...

why are people posting their opinions on matchups, theres an entire other thread where many matchups have been thorughly investigated, and still going...

now we have two threads for the same topic...cool. :/
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
so wait, all this chart shows is the exact same thing the other matchup chart shows, except with colors?

:/
oh...

why are people posting their opinions on matchups, theres an entire other thread where many matchups have been thorughly investigated, and still going...

now we have two threads for the same topic...cool. :/
Accept in the other topic people woudl go in there and provide legitimate information and backup there points, and then the OP or someone would come in and be like "no, thats wrong" without ANY justification for it and that would be the end of it. None of the mid/low tier matchups were accurately determined and explored. It just turned into "oh Ness is bad, eveyrone above him has the advantage" even tho that is NOT the case at all. It died for these reasons.

Also numbers are completely arbitrary and ********. Someone please explain the difference to me between a 75-25 matchup and a 80-20 matchup? Let's assume (hypothetically) that a matchup chart has Fox v. Roy is like 75-25. Wtf does that even mean? If the two players are evenly matched and both know how to fight the matchup, roy should NEVER WIN. Where the **** does the 25 come from then? Frankly, matchup numbers only mean stuff to the person who proposes them, the general gist of >>, >, =, <, << is better. I also believe that you should remove the UBER advantage (>>>) from the chart.
 

JPOBS

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Accept in the other topic people woudl go in there and provide legitimate information and backup there points, and then the OP or someone would come in and be like "no, thats wrong" without ANY justification for it and that would be the end of it. None of the mid/low tier matchups were accurately determined and explored. It just turned into "oh Ness is bad, eveyrone above him has the advantage" even tho that is NOT the case at all.
and what exactly is going to be different about this one?

having a new chart that's appealing to the eyes doesnt suddenly increase the knowledge we have of the low tier matchups. the biggest problem with Melee (and by extension a matchup chart) is that no one seriously plays anyone below Samus anymore.

And even if they did there would be like 1 or two people max with any input on how the ness vs bowser matchup plays and so how the hell are we supposed to make a better hcart just by adding colors?

Having a chart with colors doesnt address the bigger problem with match up discussion in general.

edit; im all for removing numbers but people were missing the bigger problem that we just dont know how low tiers play at top levels so its safer to assume they get *****. its obvious that 75-25 and 80-20 are both just bad matchups, but when people argue "whats the difference between those two" they are missing the point entirely to begin with.
 

t3h Icy

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Messages
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Some Agreement:
Falco = Sheik to Falco > Sheik

Debating:
Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon
Falco > Doc to Falco >> Doc
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco > Pikachu to Falco >> Pikachu
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falco >> G&W to Falco >>> G&W
Falco >> Ness to Falco >>> Ness
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo
Fox > Ganon to Fox >> Ganon
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Marth >> G&W to Marth >>> G&W
Peach >> G&W to Peach >>> G&W
Falcon >> G&W to Falcon = G&W
Doc > Samus to Doc = Samus
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Doc >> Zelda to Doc = Zelda
Doc >> G&W to Doc = G&W
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby

Thanks for the opinions! That's a lot more than I expected, but a lot need sorting and discussing.

so wait, all this chart shows is the exact same thing the other matchup chart shows, except with colors?

:/
oh...

why are people posting their opinions on matchups, theres an entire other thread where many matchups have been thorughly investigated, and still going...

now we have two threads for the same topic...cool. :/
The other topic is dead, and this is going to change. Also I'm active and can keep up with posts, opinions, etc.

colors are ****ing ******** use numbers *******
The last attempt didn't work well, so I'm trying this. We'll see what happens. Like I said in the original post, changing things don't take too long, so no need to rage about it.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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and what exactly is going to be different about this one?

having a new chart that's appealing to the eyes doesnt suddenly increase the knowledge we have of the low tier matchups. the biggest problem with Melee (and by extension a matchup chart) is that no one seriously plays anyone below Samus anymore.

And even if they did there would be like 1 or two people max with any input on how the ness vs bowser matchup plays and so how the hell are we supposed to make a better hcart just by adding colors?

Having a chart with colors doesnt address the bigger problem with match up discussion in general.
It'll be different because I'll take all opinions into account, and if there are differing opinions, I'll let the discussion conclude before changing anything. Also, I'm going to update often. I already changed the colours so it's easier to see differences.

The idea isn't to change from numbers to colours and suddenly it's better, I'm just restarting this topic and I'm just doing it in my own style.
 

Nintendude

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Messages
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San Francisco
I think that 55-45 matchups should be interpreted as "even" on this chart. 55-45 matchups can easily swing to dead even if not the other way around depending on the stage and playstyles.

Here's a complete list of ICs matchups. I'm pretty confident in my opinions here and I have lots of experience to back it up.

I left out ones that are already on the chart.

ICs < Marth
ICs < Sheik (either = or <, leaning towards <)
ICs = Falco (either = or <, leaning towards = )
ICs = Falcon
ICs < Jiggly
ICs = Samus
ICs = Ganon
ICs >> DK
ICs = Mario
ICs > Pikachu
ICs > Ness
ICs >> Yoshi
ICs >> Pichu
 

Nintendude

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Location
San Francisco
I hope this is readable...

Debating:
Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik disagree
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco agree
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi agree
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon disagree
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon agree
Falco > Doc to Falco >> Doc disagree
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK agree
Falco > Pikachu to Falco >> Pikachu agree
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy agree
Falco >> G&W to Falco >>> G&W not sure
Falco >> Ness to Falco >>> Ness agree
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi disagree
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo disagree
Fox > Ganon to Fox >> Ganon not sure
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK agree
Marth >> G&W to Marth >>> G&W disagree
Peach >> G&W to Peach >>> G&W disagree
Falcon >> G&W to Falcon = G&W disagree
Doc > Samus to Doc = Samus agree
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link agree
Doc >> Zelda to Doc = Zelda disagree (Doc > Zelda)
Doc >> G&W to Doc = G&W disagree (Doc > G&W)
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby disagree
Icy, I suggest you be more lenient initially when it comes to making changes. Otherwise your "Debating" list is gonna get overwhelmingly big.

Also don't let all the haters get to you. There are plenty of people who think this is a great idea. It's just that the haters are a lot more vocal >_>
 

TheManaLord

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sorry i'm colorblind and i can't deviate any of the **** at all when it's all gradual fade like that it's impossible for me to read

and it's hard to discuss

"that matchup is so blue"
"no way its def purple"

****s just whack! everyone talks about matchups quantitatively and color values don't compute properly =(



i'm just hatin' bc i like discussing matchups and i can't lol
 

t3h Icy

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Messages
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Icy, I suggest you be more lenient initially when it comes to making changes. Otherwise your "Debating" list is gonna get overwhelmingly big.

Also don't let all the haters get to you. There are plenty of people who think this is a great idea. It's just that the haters are a lot more vocal >_>
Yeah I was a little afraid of a huge list of debating stuff, but we'll see how it goes. Also, lol when I started the SSB one I got a whole load of people against me, but I slowly won them over when it was fixed, so no worries. =)

sorry i'm colorblind and i can't deviate any of the **** at all when it's all gradual fade like that it's impossible for me to read

and it's hard to discuss

"that matchup is so blue"
"no way its def purple"

****s just whack! everyone talks about matchups quantitatively and color values don't compute properly =(



i'm just hatin' bc i like discussing matchups and i can't lol
Matches are based on greater than, less than, equal signs, not colours, rofl. The colours are just a visual representation, but I didn't consider colourblindness being an issue. What colours can't you see? I'll try and fix it for you.
 

Nintendude

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pockyD

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wow

after reading the first post, i thought using colors (even though it makes it really hard to interpret) would make people stop using the absurdly stupid "80-20" or "55-45" things, but it seems like they insist on bringing it up even when it's not part of the chart in question
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
A better list of Doc's matchups from Dogy, who is way more expierenced vs. the low tiers than pretty much anyone (maybe except DJ or spikes).

Here

If you use the system of 45-55 being even, 40/35-60/65 as advantage and 30/70+ as large advantage then there you go.

Also let it be known that I disagree with some of his matchups (like vs. Pika/bowser/kirby/pichu), and that this convo was also back in May, so who knows how he feels now. There is some justification for certain matchups that might be questionable in there as well (v. Spacies/Mario/Luigi/Icies).
 

Nintendude

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Are we assuming Wobbling is legal for this chart? I think it makes a big difference for matchups like Doc and Samus where their grab game is heavily nerfed if Wobbling is banned (since their only good combos otherwise are throws into charged smashes and edge chaingrabs).

For Jiggly vs. Spacies I think it's Fox > Jiggly and Jiggly > Falco
 

x After Dawn x

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Pretty sure Wobbling is considered banned. The only tourneys I can think of that still accept it are some smaller west coast tourneys, but I think even the bigger ones (like Mango Juice) ban it.

Also, Puff does **** Falco. The last chart didn't show that because it only considered neutrals. Puff has KJ64, Mute City, Brinstar, Dream Land, and then somewhat BF and FD. Falco has...Yoshi's Story and PS. =/ Puff bans YS and all Falco has left is PS, and maybe Green Greens if it isn't banned as a counterpick in the tourney ruleset.
 

t3h Icy

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Messages
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Some Agreement:
Doc > Samus to Doc = Samus
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco = Sheik to Falco > Sheik
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco > Pikachu to Falco >> Pikachu
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falco >> Ness to Falco >>> Ness
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

Debating:
Doc >> Bowser to Doc > Bowser
Doc >> G&W to Doc = G&W
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Ness to Doc = Ness
Doc >> Pikachu to Doc = Pikachu
Doc >> Zelda to Doc = Zelda
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco >> G&W to Falco >>> G&W
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi
Falcon >> G&W to Falcon = G&W
Falcon > ICs to Falcon = ICs
Fox > Doc to Fox = Doc
Fox > Ganon to Fox >> Ganon
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik
Ganon > Doc to Ganon = Doc
Ganon > ICs to Ganon = ICs
ICs >> Mario to ICs = Mario
ICs >> Ness to ICs > Ness
ICs >> Pikachu to ICs > Pikachu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Doc to Doc > Jigglypuff
Marth >> G&W to Marth >>> G&W
Marth >> ICs to Marth > ICs
Peach >> G&W to Peach >>> G&W
Sheik = ICs to Sheik > ICs

Drowning here. =P

If you need icons, you can grab the ones from here:
http://allisbrawl.com/stadium/highscores.aspx?g=2&m=1
Good idea. I suppose that would be helpful considering this is over 4X larger.

Wobbling is also considered banned.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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no way in H*** is pichu 0<100 fox and falco (their favor). sorry man but just no way. it's not just because pichu can grab **** them pretty good and edge gaurd too. It's the fact pichu isn't slow, has grab set ups, hard to edgegaurd, and he isn't camped all that bad.

Pichu can do more than nair and edge gaurd he has really good movement I would say at least the 5th best in the game. This makes pichu even harder to hit. He can run up and SHFFL upair or autocancel and that sets up more upairs grabs or what ever you want and most of the time they double jump praying to get out and they end up at the mercy of pichu till he chooses to stike. marth, ice climbers, gannondorf and sheik are the only ones that should be called 0-100. Other than that you have no clue what your talking about.
 

x After Dawn x

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Messages
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Location
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Why was Falco > Pikachu changed to Falco >> Pikachu? I just wanna know considering I play a good Pikachu player all the time and Pikachu really doesn't feel like it gets ***** that hard.

Also, I can't really comment on Falco >> Ganon considering that I can pretty much beat any Ganon player here and they're not at top level; but I do know that Linguini said that Falco vs Ganon was even, if not, 55-45 in Falco's favor "at most."
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,277
Location
Syracuse, New York
wow

after reading the first post, i thought using colors (even though it makes it really hard to interpret) would make people stop using the absurdly stupid "80-20" or "55-45" things, but it seems like they insist on bringing it up even when it's not part of the chart in question
because colors are just as dumb if not dumber.
 

N64

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Messages
2,158
Location
Stalking Skler
A better list of Doc's matchups from Dogy, who is way more expierenced vs. the low tiers than pretty much anyone (maybe except DJ or spikes).

Here

If you use the system of 45-55 being even, 40/35-60/65 as advantage and 30/70+ as large advantage then there you go.

Also let it be known that I disagree with some of his matchups (like vs. Pika/bowser/kirby/pichu), and that this convo was also back in May, so who knows how he feels now. There is some justification for certain matchups that might be questionable in there as well (v. Spacies/Mario/Luigi/Icies).
After playing dogy over the summer, pretty sure he'd agree Doc >> Pika. The rest i have no idea : )
 
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