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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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KAOSTAR

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Well I had my original numbers and after some discussion this is what we came up with. The problem is that its hard to argue with results.

Its also hard to argue about anything when you haven't spent countless hours playing and studying these MUs.

The most radical changes were sheik and falco. The marth MU is a lil outdated, last time a chart was completed and stamped marth vs m2 was 10-0. and I would argue that playing vs peach is harder than falco sheik and ganon and marth. she punishes too hard from any mistake you make. If you take a gamble, they dont typically pay off big but the risk is high. her priority makes even approaching risky.

sheik really does lose most of what makes her the low tier slayer vs m2. fair doesnt gimp, it must kill off the side, no cg, no tech chases, no long auto combos, approach isnt entirely safe, and edgegauarding isnt a strong point in the MU.

Yoshi might be kinda good actually lol. GW meh, I just think m2 players would win because of the ****** factor. GW has decent kill moves and can mini combo into them.

na mean?
 

Cactuarz

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100% agree with the m2 G&W matchup. It's boring and stage dependent... less annoying than pika though. I wanna play ya sometime kaostar, come to a portland tourney sometime that i'm going.
 

KirbyKaze

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and I would argue that playing vs peach is harder than falco sheik and ganon and marth. she punishes too hard from any mistake you make. If you take a gamble, they dont typically pay off big but the risk is high. her priority makes even approaching risky.
What the hell is Peach doing that makes the punishment ridiculous?

Peach has no combo game vs Mewtwo beyond low percent bullcrap like turnip --> nair --> dash attack. Or Fair --> dash attack. Everything dries up at medium percent (and obviously higher percent). The only thing that works into mid percent is non-DIed D-tilt. As an added bonus she's slow as hell so she has massive issues punishing Mewtwo's teleports and generally catching his aerial mobility. DI away and Peach can do extremely little.

Her edgeguarding is also significantly worse than Sheik's vs Mewtwo because of the aforementioned difficulties punishing teleports because of how slow she is.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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KK, i would think peach would have an easier time edgeguarding M2 than sheik. I dont have much experience playing it, but wouldn't a floating bair be enough? cover the edge in case m2 doesn't sweetspot for whatever reason, and then depending on what he did to recover you'll probably FC then respace and either edge trap (m2 doesn't really have any safe offense from the ledge vs peach except maybe sideb pull if she gets too close) or move in to punish an onstage upb or respace if you wont get there in time.

What would sheik's method of edge guarding be? Grab edge? Unless mewtwo goes up a lot or lands right on the edge, i cant see sheik making it to mewtwo after an upb. But otherwise, you'd be on stage shffling fairs or bairs and tilting.

Basically, I think they are pretty comparable in terms of edgeguarding, though dissimilar.
 

KAOSTAR

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Overall I think M2 is more limited vs Peach than Sheik

What the hell is Peach doing that makes the punishment ridiculous?

Peach has no combo game vs Mewtwo beyond low percent bullcrap like turnip --> nair --> dash attack. Or Fair --> dash attack. Everything dries up at medium percent (and obviously higher percent). The only thing that works into mid percent is non-DIed D-tilt. As an added bonus she's slow as hell so she has massive issues punishing Mewtwo's teleports and generally catching his aerial mobility. DI away and Peach can do extremely little.

Her edgeguarding is also significantly worse than Sheik's vs Mewtwo because of the aforementioned difficulties punishing teleports because of how slow she is.
I just hate trading with peach. Maybe I was overstepping a bit or even just wrong by saying her "punishment" game lol. But peach is mad gay. Her hitboxes and M2's hurtboxes mix just too well.

You just have to be stupid careful the entire match. You can't compete with any aerials and those mixed with off brand DI from a throw can get u ****ed up from either a Fthrow kill or some bs followup that shouldnt work. Any miscalculation that you make will generally get you punished. So maybe peach doesn't punish "hard" but she is consistent.

This stems from the fact that M2 doesn't really have options vs peach. He can't actually outcamp peach, maybe with some ridiculous precision of turnip catching and reciprocating while simultaneously dishing out baby shadowballs he could overwhelm her. But in general the projectile games are approximately equal. Of course that is before you factor in all the random skill peach pulls from the ground. Because peach can float, the standard WD>Dtilt is rendered useless(obviously unless she is grounded) and while she is airborn the only legitimate approach that you have is a single baby shadowball; believe it or not, not even the shadowball is guaranteed. Your goal is to force her to drop her float and use M2's standard approach but even then its not completely safe. It wouldn't shock me to see m2 get his tail CC Dsmash. What makes it worse is the nature of the input typically gets M2 in trouble making him take extra damage. Being just a tad late on a platform tech chase can get u Dsmashed for up to 60 percent when you attempt a standard nair from below.

In a similar fashion that m2 changes the way sheik normally plays, Peach kinda does the same for m2.

By the edge, fair can kill M2 starting in the neighborhood of 105%. Usmash/Uair can also lead to an early death for m2.

I guess in terms of punishment, Sheik and Peach probably wont instantly get a stock from a single M2 mistake but peach tends to be able to punish M2 more consistently simply because she has sooo much priority and can throw out just about anything.

Peach is definitely harder to fight than Sheik. M2 also loses his tech chasing, ability to approach with Dtilt and subsequently the ability to CC and come out successful. M2s edgeguarding vs peach is one of his weakest. It is risky enough that Id rather save percent and stay onstage most of the time. Furthermore, M2 cannot punish peach very hard at all. For the most part its high risk low reward. M2's punishes vs Peach are typically half a nair and sometimes a grab or a dtilt[maybe a fair after] and they all do relatively low damage. Because Peach has no lag aerials into jab or downsmash, attacking oos isnt usually an option. Most of this is false vs sheik so naturally Id find the MU a little easier.

[COLLAPSE=Edgeguarding]To be quite honest, for some reason M2's tend to save their double jump even vs Peach when its unnecessary. What I really mean is that I find myself doing it and Taj vs Armada you can see him using his Dj and teleporting to the ledge. Watching Iori vs BladeWise you see Iori take the top platform just about every single time. That probably was alot easier just because it was Dream Land tho.

If M2 uses his traditional recovery methods I would say that Peach and Sheik are about equal in terms of being able to apply pressure on a recovering M2. Sheik is better and more active by the ledge while Peach is able to apply her presence and zone M2 a little bit better while he is rising from low to mid.

For the most part, all of Peach's move send you high. Sheik can send you low if you hold down. Sheik usually puts M2 in a worse position. But Recovering low isnt generally a problem, but Sheik can use needles to make it difficult.

What should happen, at least vs Peach, is M2 should simply DI up and in and Dj straight above the stage. When Peach gets close he should just cross up or teleport away and roll if necessary.

I think the mindset that keeps this from happening is that M2 players tend to like to keep that control, save as many options as possibly. I absolutely hate floating above the stage like that. Thats why off stage I tend to charge my shadowball as I recover and go for the ledge alot. M2 is a pimp like that aka I should probably stop lol.

Sheik is faster so she can catch a floating M2 alot easier. Peach can throw turnips where she thinks u will land and still cover another spot. Its not amazing but if you throw the right thing and guess right M2 can have a very bad day.

At the end of the day, Sheik is more likely to catch M2 slippin and M2 should just recover high vs Peach alot more.[/COLLAPSE]
 

KirbyKaze

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KK, i would think peach would have an easier time edgeguarding M2 than sheik. I dont have much experience playing it, but wouldn't a floating bair be enough?
If Mewtwo has to recover low perhaps but since Peach doesn't have a single move in her moveset that sends him at a lowish trajectory and Mewtwo has that beastly double jump, I don't see how that could happen often. If ever.

Mewtwo can be very non-committal with this sort of thing because of his fabulous aerial mobility, btw.

cover the edge in case m2 doesn't sweetspot for whatever reason, and then depending on what he did to recover you'll probably FC then respace and either edge trap (m2 doesn't really have any safe offense from the ledge vs peach except maybe sideb pull if she gets too close) or move in to punish an onstage upb or respace if you wont get there in time.
I'd think Mewtwo would stall the edge for a while and eventually either get up (either stationary get up or some form of ledgehop waveland - yes I am aware he's not invincible for long if at all but the point is to get onstage in place quickly) or teleport to the middle. Peach might be able to spam moves with no lag but she's still Peach and she's still slow. She can't cover both at any given moment. Teleport covers too much distance and doesn't have enough lag.

And again this is all occurring against a recovery that Mewtwo will rarely if ever have to make vs Peach because of the nature of all her moves. They have a high trajectory if DIed.

What would sheik's method of edge guarding be? Grab edge? Unless mewtwo goes up a lot or lands right on the edge, i cant see sheik making it to mewtwo after an upb. But otherwise, you'd be on stage shffling fairs or bairs and tilting.

Basically, I think they are pretty comparable in terms of edgeguarding, though dissimilar.
I tend to think needles shooting faster and going further (and straight if she chooses) can rack damage on Mewtwo recovering from far away. She also sets up more profitable edgeguard situations (IMO) because her Fair puts him at a relatively cheesy angle. I think she transitions from the edge to the stage well because of her ledgedash, and may be able to sneak a jab --> Fair or tilt if he recovers with teleport. Basically I think she has a better chance of putting damage on a recovering Mewtwo, even if she won't kill him.

I suppose I spoke out of turn though. I don't know that for fact. Sheik's edgeguarding on Mewtwo may very well suck just like Peach's.
 

john!

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mewtwo almost always can recover from above and has a hard time recovering from below

peach can't send him below, sheik can

further, sheik can keep up with his teleports and peach can't

mewtwo can di everything up and peach can't gimp him 4 times out of 5... :(

basically a tl;dr version of kk's excellent analysis
 

KirbyKaze

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You just have to be stupid careful the entire match. You can't compete with any aerials and those mixed with off brand DI from a throw can get u ****ed up from either a Fthrow kill or some bs followup that shouldnt work. Any miscalculation that you make will generally get you punished. So maybe peach doesn't punish "hard" but she is consistent.
I'm fairly sure miscalculations will get you punished vs a lot more than just Peach. I'm also not sure how you could possibly DI Peach's F-throw poorly because Peach's has a terrible throw mixup game. It's also very, very easy to DI versus her because of how obvious her combo moves and not-combo moves are, especially when you're not a fast faller or pseudo-fast faller (Sheik, Ganon, some others).

This stems from the fact that M2 doesn't really have options vs peach. He can't actually outcamp peach, maybe with some ridiculous precision of turnip catching and reciprocating while simultaneously dishing out baby shadowballs he could overwhelm her. But in general the projectile games are approximately equal. Of course that is before you factor in all the random skill peach pulls from the ground. Because peach can float, the standard WD>Dtilt is rendered useless(obviously unless she is grounded) and while she is airborn the only legitimate approach that you have is a single baby shadowball; believe it or not, not even the shadowball is guaranteed. Your goal is to force her to drop her float and use M2's standard approach but even then its not completely safe. It wouldn't shock me to see m2 get his tail CC Dsmash. What makes it worse is the nature of the input typically gets M2 in trouble making him take extra damage. Being just a tad late on a platform tech chase can get u Dsmashed for up to 60 percent when you attempt a standard nair from below.
In the same vein of thinking though, it is extremely difficult for Peach to catch Mewtwo. Taj spends a lot of the game vs Armada just shadow balling into teleports and resetting the spacing. Though Peach certainly ***** when she gets in, it takes some serious effort to trap a smart Mewtwo.

Same goes for Iori vs Bladewise if you wanna use an example that isn't best players of the characters or whatever.

Standard WD D-tilt can be rendered "useless" by a whole manner of camping strategies, particularly ones that revolve around the platforms. Since Mewtwo has to have alternative options to get around that crap, he must therefore also have something that works against floats. I have certainly seen Taj stuff Fairs with Nairs and he also seems pretty good at simply making Peach miss because at the end of the day if she's floating relatively high with a Fair or Bair (since we're talking about "priority" moves), it's not hard to teleport through her or move back when she starts coming down. CC grab works well against her weak aerials.

In a similar fashion that m2 changes the way sheik normally plays, Peach kinda does the same for m2.
Samus alters the way a lot of characters play but it doesn't necessarily mean they're disadvantaged against her. Different does not necessarily mean worse it just means "different".

By the edge, fair can kill M2 starting in the neighborhood of 105%. Usmash/Uair can also lead to an early death for m2.
Regarding the Fair, I'm just going to say DI better. Unless you're only playing Yoshi's Story and Pokemon Stadium that percent is ridiculous. No way should that happen on FD, Dreamland, or Battlefield. I'm not sure about FoD.

The next two are true but they're also ludicrously hard for Peach to hit. The former significantly more than the latter. You might as well say that Sheik's tipped U-smash can lead to an early death. You're probably more likely to hit that. Mewtwo should not be above Peach and she really does have no way to set up either move in her entire moveset unless something miraculous happens just because of how she is as a character.

I guess in terms of punishment, Sheik and Peach probably wont instantly get a stock from a single M2 mistake but peach tends to be able to punish M2 more consistently simply because she has sooo much priority and can throw out just about anything.
I'd say Sheik and Peach have very comparable priority. I'd also argue that Sheik's priority moves tend to be faster, which is very useful.

You could say that Peach's are more versatile, I suppose, since she can float them at a variety of heights.

Punishing consistently? That's sort of ill-defined but I'll admit she probably hits him more readily if Mewtwo engages her in combat. But since he spends the bulk of the matchup trying to avoid that...

*shrug*

It's a long game.

Peach is definitely harder to fight than Sheik. M2 also loses his tech chasing, ability to approach with Dtilt and subsequently the ability to CC and come out successful. M2s edgeguarding vs peach is one of his weakest. It is risky enough that Id rather save percent and stay onstage most of the time. Furthermore, M2 cannot punish peach very hard at all. For the most part its high risk low reward. M2's punishes vs Peach are typically half a nair and sometimes a grab or a dtilt[maybe a fair after] and they all do relatively low damage. Because Peach has no lag aerials into jab or downsmash, attacking oos isnt usually an option. Most of this is false vs sheik so naturally Id find the MU a little easier.
Thing is though, you ignore a huge amount of the things Peach can't do to Mewtwo. She can't edgeguard him very effectively. She can't combo him very effectively. She has huge issues catching him and pinning him down. She dies fairly early from U-throw comparably to most characters and her slow movement makes it difficult for her to toss moves out vs his significantly better movement. Particularly if she's playing such a heavy float aerial game, which seems to be what you're getting at.

As for shield pressure: Peach's jabs can definitely be punished. D-smash can also be punished out of shield by a lot of characters if the shield holds but I can imagine that being an issue for Mewtwo. And I'm not sure how he goes about punishing it anyway so I'll grant you that.

However, I don't agree with how easily you disregard all of Sheik's shield pressure. If Sheik doesn't tilt poorly and spaces her aerials I assure you that it is extremely difficult to punish them. There are all sorts of very fun frame traps in Sheik's moveset with low aerials.

I also assure you that simply lobbing out D-tilts isn't easy vs Sheik even if she does lack the means to levitate. Sheik has an excellent shield game, crouch cancel game, platform game, and some very nice SH aerials.
 

rhan

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It's still sad to know that the one legit thing in this community got given up on.. >_>
 

Fortress | Sveet

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lmao this thread was 80% trolls. There was no real discussion. Nobody ever accepted another person's opinion. The chart is "finished" at least for now. I doubt matchups will change anytime soon
 

KirbyKaze

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The course of the SSBM matchup chart has completed.

Now a new one will be created.

And be ruined.

As usual.

And then another...

It is the never-ending cycle.
 

idea

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honestly though, despite the majority of the discussions, i think it went pretty well. it's just too bad all the posts weren't by like taj or n64.
 

rhan

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Eventually the community will give up on those too. Cuz the Smash community sucks.
 

t3h Icy

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People whine and whine and when presented an opportunity to help and fix stuff, they either go into ******** troll mode or are too lazy to do anything. I'd love to continue this, but the community is too dumb to function enough for this to happen.

On the plus side, I don't have to worry about avoiding receiving infractions. =D
 
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