Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Niko45]

Still, you're taking the 'expert' opinion of an above average player who doesn't have an 'expert' from the other side to even compete with.

Your analysis is one sided and not entirely credible.

I just used his example and his logic, and I agree that it's not credible.

 

[Radiowar]

And techniques used to apply inferior tools? I mean, are we supposed to just look at things "on paper" and say "well peach has this and Samus has that, so peach wins"

ok so i've been following this thread for awhile - this might just be a noob question - but is there any reason why a discussion of character match-ups should be anything BUT what happens "on paper"? shouldn't it be about, all things equal, what options either character has against the other, and the ability of either character to counter or simply shut down the other's options? seems like talking about an individual player's ability or knowledge of a match-up should be left out of it.

trying to come up with a theoretical representation that encompasses all practical (i.e. random) outcomes, especially among higher tiered characters, seems unnecessarily difficult at best. they seem to end up in an "even" or "slight advantage" match-up, which seems more of a reflection of the outcomes at a professional level of play (see: any top level pros going even in matches, or playing specifically from experience against a certain player) than the actual character-to-character match-up. isn't that what the tier list is for?

anyway i don't mean to derail the discussion at hand - just a question.

 

[TheManaLord]

It's what's supposed to happen when the characters are faced against one another. Another reason why the charts format doesn't really work or give any solid info.

 

[Winston]

ok so i've been following this thread for awhile - this might just be a noob question - but is there any reason why a discussion of character match-ups should be anything BUT what happens "on paper"? shouldn't it be about, all things equal, what options either character has against the other, and the ability of either character to counter or simply shut down the other's options? seems like talking about an individual player's ability or knowledge of a match-up should be left out of it.

trying to come up with a theoretical representation that encompasses all practical (i.e. random) outcomes, especially among higher tiered characters, seems unnecessarily difficult at best. they seem to end up in an "even" or "slight advantage" match-up, which seems more of a reflection of the outcomes at a professional level of play (see: any top level pros going even in matches, or playing specifically from experience against a certain player) than the actual character-to-character match-up. isn't that what the tier list is for?

anyway i don't mean to derail the discussion at hand - just a question.

Well if you look at the context Hugs posted in, he uses the phrase "on paper" to mean a kind of naive "character A's move X beats character B's move Y" kind of analysis. I think everyone here is comfortable with the idea that we're working with theory.

 

[Radiowar]

Well if you look at the context Hugs posted in, he uses the phrase "on paper" to mean a kind of naive "character A's move X beats character B's move Y" kind of analysis. I think everyone here is comfortable with the idea that we're working with theory.

yeah that quote might have been a bad example. really i was thinking more about the falcon discussion the went down a few pages back, where a lot of people started talking about the abilities of the players, and whether or not they knew the match-up. basically, situational things, things that i don't understand how a chart like this can account for.

 

[JPOBS]

i dont really understand hugs' rebuttle in the discussion with redsparrow.

he basically said peach has better tools to work with, and samus is largely inferior, but samus using her tools right in specific situations makes the matchup even. But peach using her tools right doesnt affect the matchup in her favor at all.

i dont really see how that works. i dont even have an opinion on the matchup, but just from the outside I dont see the arguement for even.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wobbles has in the past openly stated he thinks Marth is stupidly gay against Ice Climbers and an extremely uphill battle.

I'm not sure what he thinks now, but Wobbles is very good too.

It seems like you could make an argument for the matchup either way (slight or solid advantages). It also seems like it would be hard to draw an accurate result from the competing perspectives too, given how few competent Ice Climber players exist and the decline of competent Marths that also know how to play the matchup well.

 

[Merkuri]

i dont really understand hugs' rebuttle in the discussion with redsparrow.

he basically said peach has better tools to work with, and samus is largely inferior, but samus using her tools right in specific situations makes the matchup even. But peach using her tools right doesnt affect the matchup in her favor at all.

i dont really see how that works. i dont even have an opinion on the matchup, but just from the outside I dont see the arguement for even.

I could be wrong but I think Hugs was saying that even though Peach has better moves than Samus, in that particular match up, Samus' tools are more applicable than Peach's are.

 

[idea]

Ok, I get your crouch canceling point, which for the for the most part is true. However you seem to be under the impression that Peach has to be in the air for Jigs to uptilt rest her, she doesn't Jigs can uptlilt rest Peach on the ground just like she can to Marth, Ganon, etc.

didn't see this earlier...thread moves pretty fast.

kind of the opposite, actually. only when peach is near jiggs' early/lower uptilt hitbox can she get rested from it. the upper part doesn't work because it has less hitstun and hits peach farther away.

but i worded it oddly...what i meant was that jiggs can catch peach out of _the start_ of her jump. there's no reason for peach to just lower her shield, instead of jumping out of it. when you jump behind peach and uptilt, and it works, it's because the peach tried to jump out of their shield to get away.

uptilting peach in other ways is probably even more situational. i can't think of a reasonable way for jiggs to end up right next to peach without already having been hit by something. i just don't see how you'd have the time.

i'm bored of talking about uptilt >_<

 

[Mahone]

puff > peach, but not because of uptilt rest.

whenever you are down against peach u can just rest her rolls

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Most people would say Sheik does fine against Puff. Yet Amsah is adamant about that match-up being close to impossible. You just have to be so much better than your opponent to compensate for the conspicuous disadvantages you have. That's reason enough for me to bemoan the match-up.

amsah is adamant about a lot of unique views. in statistics we would call him an outlier
e.g peach/armada is impossible to beat. counter example: pound 4

Can you prove this, demonstrate this, etc.

no i meant she can grab a puff that has been crouching a while, but if thats what u meant i would just link to the post where it was mention in the sheik thread

 

[idea]

puff > peach, but not because of uptilt rest.

whenever you are down against peach u can just rest her rolls

lol yeah i love doing that

also, against marth, if you roll into him just as he fsmashes, there's around an 8 frame window in which you can rest him before he can move.

 

[KirbyKaze]

no i meant she can grab a puff that has been crouching a while, but if thats what u meant i would just link to the post where it was mention in the sheik thread

I know she can grab Puff if she's been ducking for too long but that's easy to avoid as Puff. You just don't duck for that long in one sitting.

 

[Alphicans]

amsah is adamant about a lot of unique views. in statistics we would call him an outlier
e.g peach/armada is impossible to beat. counter example: pound 4

Pound 4 was the NA version not pal. The dthrow -> aerial really helps.

 

[john!]

Pound 4 was the NA version not pal. The dthrow -> aerial really helps.

IIRC he thinks the matchup is even or slightly in Peach's favor in NTSC, and strong Peach's favor in PAL. But he's also fully aware that playing Armada has biased his thinking a bit.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no he thinks its even in ntsc and slightly peach's favor in pal

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Pound 4 was the NA version not pal. The dthrow -> aerial really helps.

i am aware. its ntsc to be specific. im just pointing out a markedly different outlook on matchups.

no he thinks its even in ntsc and slightly peach's favor in pal

he went on for maybe 10 pages or so about how its more... 'impossible' he would prob say peach >> sheik in PAL

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea, Amsah thinks Peach has more than a small advantage in PAL.

 

[Armada]

t3h Icy send me a message about this thread so will give you guys what i say about Peachs matchups (NSC ofc).

Peach-Falco 50-50
Peach-Fox 30-70
Peach- Shiek 40-60
Peach-Marth 40-60
Peach-IC 75-25
Peach- Puff 45-55
Peach-CF 35-65
Peach- Ganon 55-45
Peach- DK 60-40

I know this thread have like+/- but i think you guys can translate my words better than i can

This is the only matchups i have play enough. I have play against Samus but the only really good Samus i have play against is Hugs (and IVP a few times) and we only play 3 friendlis.

 

[john!]

CF worse than Sheik and Marth? Hmm maybe...

I agree that Fox is the worst though, borderline >> imo... thanks for the input.

 

[SleepyK]

that chart looks pretty ok, imo.
i dunno about cf though.

 

[t3h Icy]

Thanks Armada. <3

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

t3h Icy send me a message about this thread so will give you guys what i say about Peachs matchups (NSC ofc).

Peach- Shiek 40-60

VICTORY!
so can we make it sheik > peach for good now?

 

[unknown522]

Yea, Amsah thinks Peach has more than a small advantage in PAL.

yeah, From what I last heard from him he thinks it's like 95-5 in PAL and 80-20 in NTSC in peach's favor.

t3h Icy send me a message about this thread so will give you guys what i say about Peachs matchups (NSC ofc).

Peach-Falco 50-50
Peach-Fox 30-70
Peach- Shiek 40-60
Peach-Marth 40-60
Peach-IC 75-25
Peach- Puff 45-55
Peach-CF 35-65
Peach- Ganon 55-45
Peach- DK 60-40

I know this thread have like+/- but i think you guys can translate my words better than i can

This is the only matchups i have play enough. I have play against Samus but the only really good Samus i have play against is Hugs (and IVP a few times) and we only play 3 friendlis.

wow, Armada posted. I agree with most of his numbers.

Anyways, IMO:
peach v fox: 35-65
peach v marth: 30-70

 

[t3h Icy]

Falcon > Peach
Jigglypuff > Peach

Fox >> Peach?
Peach > Doc?

VICTORY!
so can we make it sheik > peach for good now?

It already is. ?_?

 

[Armada]

t3h Icy: No problem =).

 

[Nintendude]

Jigglypuff vs. Peach is pretty even imo. Again, I think that "45-55" matchups are very ambiguous in terms of whether or not the advantage is actually there due to variability in playstyles.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Jigglypuff vs. Peach is pretty even imo. Again, I think that "45-55" matchups are very ambiguous in terms of whether or not the advantage is actually there due to variability in playstyles.

I think that the fact that it's quite hard to punish a missed rest as peach that plays the deciding role in this matchup being slightly in puff's favour. It's a small psychological edge.

 

[MaNg0]

peach 30

fox 70


.....


guess i should have never played u in those friendlies..

LOOOOOOOL


<3

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Mango coming with the fire

 

[Bones0]

peach 30

fox 70


.....


guess i should have never played u in those friendlies..

LOOOOOOOL


<3

As soon as I saw Peach-Fox 30-70 I flashbacked to you drillshining him in the friendlies. XD

 

[otg]

Peach > Doc, it's probably around 55:45, but I would say that peach has a big enough advnatage to warrant a > instead of =.

 

[Animal]

idk HMW almost beat armada lolol HMW<3

 

[KAOSTAR]

But he still lost. So peach>doc lol

of course had he won it would be doc>peach.


thats how matchups work

 

[otg]

idk HMW almost beat armada lolol HMW<3

And I'm pretty sure armada has like 0 Doc experience. Plus in one of their friendlies waffles gets like 2 or 3 stocked, so you know clearly Peach >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doc.

Yep, theory fighter is awesome.

 

[Composeur]

peach 30

fox 70


.....


guess i should have never played u in those friendlies..

LOOOOOOOL


<3

How serious were those friendlies? I assumed you were both being at least a little less cautious than you would have in tournament matches, but obviously I don't really know that.

 

[KAOSTAR]

LMAO **** ridin Obama.

I just saw that **** like a day or 2 ago, that episode was hella funny.

 

[john!]

How serious were those friendlies? I assumed you were both being at least a little less cautious than you would have in tournament matches, but obviously I don't really know that.

pretty **** serious imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlkaDMiIpys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB1-6sHfDcg

mango plays fox the right way vs. peach... drill baby drill

 

[Composeur]

I've seen them all plenty of times. They're some of the best matches on YT, imo. I was just wondering if they were maybe being a little reckless. Then again, they're both insanely fast, so maybe not. ^^

 

[JPOBS]

its obvious mango was being pretty liberal/nonchalant with his edgeguards at least.

but all things considered, generally speaking, when you play friendlies with opponents you never get to play (i.e. they live in another region/country), you instinctively try pretty hard cuz you wont have much chance to play them in the future and you wanna test your skill, even if they are "just" friendlies.