Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[TheManaLord]

If falcon is << to fox and falco should ganon be also

 

[otg]

If falcon is << to fox and falco should ganon be also

Ganon should be <<, as well as Falcon.

 

[NJzFinest]

Ganon is either slight advantage over Link or even.

Ganon vs YLink is definitely even. Ganon is way to fat and slow to not get camped hardcore.

Also, people usually say Peach and Marth have slight advantages over Ganon. CFalcon is definitely <<.

 

[MarsFool!]

lol ylink cant kill anything, camp all he wants ganon only has to hit him twice

I dont know how you think ganon link is even but please inform us, i dont see how not being to leave the ground is going to help link players...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually yl's nair is deceptively fast and has good enough range. YL can also gimp ganon pretty well with nairs and dsmashes alone, but dtilt and bair help a lot too. I actually think the matchup is very slightly favoring ganon, but not enough to be >.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

No, we can't.

lol the only time u post in this thread...
well shed some light on us amsah =)

I'd argue peach Zelda even. But just peach > zelda is fine I guess.

yea f$#% that low tier!
i think many of the low tiers are misrepresented =/. not that i care tho

 

[NJzFinest]

lol ylink cant kill anything, camp all he wants ganon only has to hit him twice

Eventhough YLink sucks at KOing, he still at least gets people off the edge.... and Ganon's recovery + YLink's decent edgeguarding = enough.
Hitting him twice doesn't kill him unless it's two neutral Bs or up tilts with no DI. Hitting him also requires... hitting him lol, which isn't going to be easy when he's constantly running away throwing ****.

I dont know how you think ganon link is even but please inform us, i dont see how not being to leave the ground is going to help link players...

Are you sure we're talking about Ganon?
Exactly how does Ganon keep Link in the air?

 

[Merkuri]

Hey t3h Icy what happened to Peach > Zelda. No one was against and a bunch of people were for it. Why did you simply ignore it?

lol ylink cant kill anything, camp all he wants ganon only has to hit him twice

I dont know how you think ganon link is even but please inform us, i dont see how not being to leave the ground is going to help link players...

I'm not sure if Ganon vs Link and Young Link is even but it sure as hell isn't Ganon >> Link/Young Link. Honestly this was just some stupid generalization made because the links are low tiers. If the links go in the match with the intention to camp hardcore then Ganon is ****ed. Ganon has awful mobility and he has no projectile. he's camp bait. Especially since Ganons predictability always jumping camping them it's that much easier because more times than not you know where they are going to be. I don't know where you get the idea Ylink can't kill Ganon, his Dsmash does exactly that(which his projectiles combo into) and it's a great edge guarding tool against him, jumping off the stage nairing is good for edge guarding as well. Link has enough strong moves to kill Ganon as well and both characters have much easier time edge guarding Ganon than Ganon has for edge guarding them.

I think Ganon > Link(this match up may even be Ganon = Link) and Ganon > Young Link.

 

[Dark Hart]

Peach Zelda is definitely maaaaad close. I'd like to say it's even, but Peach > Zelda is arguable as well.

 

[Dark Hart]

Oh btw Fox >> Ganon

Waveshine anyone?

 

[VGmasta]

I think Ganondorf has a slight advantage over Dr. Mario.
Popular belief has been: Doc = Ganon
My belief stands as: Doc < Ganon

Ganondorf DOMINATES Doc in the aerial game. And Ganon's tilts outrange Doc and either knock Doc away to hell (f-tilt) or pop him up (d-tilt) into the air where Ganon dominates. This makes it extremely tough for Doc to approach Ganon.

All Doc can really do to Ganon is piss him off and HOPE that Ganon will mess up spacing by trying to camp/bait him with pills, and wavedashing in and out to try and throw off Ganon's timing/spacing. Other than that, Doc has NO other way of actually getting in on Ganon.

Both Ganon and Doc have edgeguarding on each other. Ganon should lose a stock as long as he's below the ledge and all he has left is the Up-B. But if Ganon is recovering high, he has a decent chance in making it back to the stage because of the aerials he can defend himself with.

Doc loses a stock for being anywhere near the stage while he's trying to recover (which is awful since he needs to actually be near the ledge to actually have any chance in making it back).

I think the match-up is 60-40 Ganon's favor.

 

[t3h Icy]

Hey t3h Icy what happened to Peach > Zelda. No one was against and a bunch of people were for it. Why did you simply ignore it?

Because nobody has said why besides lolkicks.

 

[Merkuri]

I think Ganondorf has a slight advantage over Dr. Mario.
Popular belief has been: Doc = Ganon
My belief stands as: Doc < Ganon

Ganondorf DOMINATES Doc in the aerial game. And Ganon's tilts outrange Doc and either knock Doc away to hell (f-tilt) or pop him up (d-tilt) into the air where Ganon dominates. This makes it extremely tough for Doc to approach Ganon.

All Doc can really do to Ganon is piss him off and HOPE that Ganon will mess up spacing by trying to camp/bait him with pills, and wavedashing in and out to try and throw off Ganon's timing/spacing. Other than that, Doc has NO other way of actually getting in on Ganon.

Both Ganon and Doc have edgeguarding on each other. Ganon should lose a stock as long as he's below the ledge and all he has left is the Up-B. But if Ganon is recovering high, he has a decent chance in making it back to the stage because of the aerials he can defend himself with.

Doc loses a stock for being anywhere near the stage while he's trying to recover (which is awful since he needs to actually be near the ledge to actually have any chance in making it back).

I think the match-up is 60-40 Ganon's favor.

Agreed whole heartedly.

Also I feel as if Ganon >> Luigi is too much. I certainly don't see why Mario does better in the match up. Luigi's slow falling speed gives him the edge on Mario being as Ganon can combo him less and falling faster doesn't help Mario to attack Ganon. Luigi's BETTER aerials are good when fighting Ganon as it gives him a decent approach which Mario doesn't have. Wavedashing in to Ftilt, smashes and grab while all are not completely reliable methods of approaching Ganon it's still better than anything Mario has to approach, and Luigi can wave dash out to quickly escape from Ganon which is something the Mario brothers often finding themselves needed to do. Lastly I argue that Luigi's B is better for attacking Ganon simply because it can hit Ganon in the air hence making it more versatile, unlike Doc's pills Mario's fireball moves too quickly and bounces too low to be of much use in this match up.

I think it should be Ganon > Luigi. And I think Ganon >> Mario may be a bit more accurate(I'm ok with Mario the way it is though)

 

[TheManaLord]

All Zelda does is kick. that's what defines her matchups. how good is kick against said character = that matchup.

 

[Merkuri]

Because nobody has said why besides lolkicks.

I think I gave a pretty good description in my post. Peach can't exploit Zelda's weakness because like Zelda she lacks mobility. And the kicks are the main reason why the it's hardly in Peach's favor, due to her lack of mobility and defensive/counter-offensive options she has hard time dealing with the kicks. And since either character can reliably edge guard the other Peach has a hard time killing Zelda due to her great recovery while kicks kill Peach pretty well. Lastly neither character has any combos on each other, and this match up is slightly in peach's favor because her better move set will give the edge on Zelda while they're trading hits(building up percentage, not koing)

 

[Divinokage]

Oh btw Fox >> Ganon

Waveshine anyone?

I agree with Fox >> Ganon but Waveshine does not work on Ganon, sorry. You can SDI out of it easily. It's just Fox mobility and recovery options is generally too much for Ganon. Fox can do so many things it's ridiculous rofl. Enough said! Though i personally dont mind the matchup, it's not hopeless.

However, I do not agree with Falco >> Ganon.. it's probably Falco > Ganon only. Now obviously if Ganon is off stage he should die. If Falco is off stage then, he might have some options but not as good as Fox's recovery which does make a big difference. If Falco tries to Forward B above the ledge then, you can time a jab into downair to kill him lol. if he goes above the jab then you can time an aerial. Sweetspotting the ledge with Up B, can be countered with a upair off stage depending where he's at.. I mean Falco cannot be too far away from the ledge to do that, or else its too obvious to do Up B towards the ledge or he'll just fail, because he's failco lol.

Anyways on stage, I mean Falco's shine can be SDI out of as well. It's easier to do with Ganon than Falcon to prevent Falco from further completing his combos. Now with the laser game, if Falco decides to approach with lasers, Ganon can WD back into jab, to prevent a downair from happening or anything else. Also Upair OOS is amazing in this matchup as well. Ganon just needs a few hits and Falco is pretty much gone with one mistake. lol.

 

[VGmasta]

Also I feel as if Ganon >> Luigi is too much. I certainly don't see why Mario does better in the match up. Luigi's slow falling speed gives him the edge on Mario being as Ganon can combo him less and falling faster doesn't help Mario to attack Ganon. Luigi's BETTER aerials are good when fighting Ganon as it gives him a decent approach which Mario doesn't have. Wavedashing in to Ftilt, smashes and grab while all are not completely reliable methods of approaching Ganon it's still better than anything Mario has to approach, and Luigi can wave dash out to quickly escape from Ganon which is something the Mario brothers often finding themselves needed to do. Lastly I argue that Luigi's B is better for attacking Ganon simply because it can hit Ganon in the air hence making it more versatile, unlike Doc's pills Mario's fireball moves too quickly and bounces too low to be of much use in this match up.

I think it should be Ganon > Luigi. And I think Ganon >> Mario may be a bit more accurate(I'm ok with Mario the way it is though)

Even though Mario lacks kill-ability vs. Ganon, I doubt Luigi does BETTER than Mario in the matchup. I'm not sure if Luigi's slower falling speed helps him in the Ganon matchup any better than if he had Mario's falling speed. I guess it would depend on how good/reliable Luigi's aerials are in the matchup. I'd have to get RockCrock and Linguini to give their take on Blea Gelo's Luigi on this one. But I'd think that the slower you fall, the more likely you'll be able to get hit. So unless Luigi's d-air ***** against Ganon's up-air, Luigi will still get comboed.

And Mario does have a better projectile than Luigi. Mario's fireball doesn't bounce like Doc's pill, so you won't see Mario do standing fireballs that much since Ganon can easily hop over those. Ganon can also just up-air at Mario whenever he predicts Mario to go into the air with or without a fireball. And Mario's fireball even helps him recover better than Doc's pills because of the slower and longer fall of the fireball. Ganon has to react to the fireball when Mario is relatively further from the ledge than Doc. Doc's pills only fall as far as Ganon's up-air/f-air range right by the ledge where Doc needs to get to.

But Luigi's fireball slowly goes like nowhere and doesn't seem as useful. And I'm pretty sure Luigi's recovery option is pretty bad vs Ganon. Luigi's only got like one recovery gimmick that Doc or Mario don't have: the misfire which is highly unreliable because it's random as hell and it gets punished unless you completely fly pass Ganon or actually land hit.

If Ganon > Luigi, I'm not sure how Ganon >> Mario.

I think Ganon > Mario.

The only edge I see Luigi having in the matchup is if he can force Ganon to do down-B or Up-B on the stage and punish the lag time with his (Luigi's) Up-B uppercut. Again, I could be wrong about some stuff, I don't know exactly how much priority Luigi's airs have on Ganon's arsenal. But that would pretty much decide whether or not he holds even with Mario vs. Ganon.

EDITED FOR TYPOS

 

[JPOBS]

I agree with Fox >> Ganon but Waveshine does not work on Ganon, sorry. You can SDI out of it easily.

explain please?

 

[giuocob]

The only edge I see Luigi having in the matchup is if he can force Ganon to do down-B or Up-B on the stage and punish the lag time with his (Luigi's) Up-B uppercut. Again, I could be wrong about some stuff, I don't know exactly how much priority Luigi's airs have on Ganon's arsenal. But that would pretty much decide whether or not he holds even with Mario vs. Ganon.

Luigi's aerials have got mad priority, but it's definitely not worth trying to clash with him in the air. Luigi's F-air will trade with Ganon's but that means that Ganon will get sent a good way back while Luigi dies. Uair should usually **** Luigi's Dair. So I don't think that should help Luigi too much.

There are other factors that give Luigi options in this matchup that Mario doesn't have. The big one is that Ganon off the stage and reasonably far away is an instant kill. Luigi's an amazing edgeguarder, and CF and Ganondorf are two of the easiest characters for him in this category. If he recovers high, he gets Baired out and has to try again; if he goes low, he gets Daired and dies. Also, he has much better options than Mario for getting Ganon off the edge. He can do Bthrow, SH Dair, Dsmash -> Fair, Dthrow -> Dsmash -> Fair, etc, any of which should lead to death at 80% or lower.

I don't know much about Mario's matchups, but Luigi has far too many options to make this Ganon >> Luigi.

Ganon > Luigi sounds sufficient.

 

[Blackshadow]

Ganon has awful mobility

I don't think you've played a good Ganon before. Ganon + platforms = good mobility. The only stage Ganon has trouble quickly moving around on is FD, and that's what we have a ban for.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Ganons mobility is aight. he isnt like bowser or anything. but he isnt fox or falcon.

You can use the platforms and WVLNDs to close some distances pretty quickly, he has some decent bursts of speed that he can def use but alot of characters can beat this with simple wavedashing or a decent dash(dance)

he just isnt very quick, except that **** *** jab and ftilt

 

[Divinokage]

explain please?

everytime fox shines you, you smash your joystick and cstick downwards away... If the first wont work the 2nd will for sure.

I agree with Ganon > Luigi, I mean I fought Ka-master in 31 MMs, and the score was 17-14 for me lol. And at Pound 4, I still won but still close.

 

[KAOSTAR]

everytime fox shines you, you smash your joystick and cstick downwards away... If the first wont work the 2nd will for sure.

I agree with Ganon > Luigi, I mean I beat Ka-master in 30 MMs, and the score was 17-14 for me lol. And at Pound 4, I still won but still close.

You beat him in 30 MMs?

17-14 =31 lol? and you BEAT him in 30?
actually + but u kno

 

[Divinokage]

You beat him in 30 MMs?

17-14 =31 lol? and you BEAT him in 30?
actually + but u kno

whoops.. I mean 17 mms on 31.. lol..

 

[JPOBS]

everytime fox shines you, you smash your joystick and cstick downwards away... If the first wont work the 2nd will for sure.

.

and this is garunteed to break fox's waveshine no matter how well he does it?

 

[Divinokage]

and this is garunteed to break fox's waveshine no matter how well he does it?

I'm very close to 100% sure because I need to actually do it in game.

 

[Animal]

yup, hence why noone does it anymore lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

whoops.. I mean 17 mms on 31.. lol..

still impressive, his weegy is really smart. Ganon prob has an easier time gettin those killshots.

wats ur best stage vs weege, yoshis?

 

[Fletch]

I know this doesn't make or break the Fox/Ganon matchup, but this is too awesome to not post.

You could also try fastfalling right as you slip off the edge. If you time it right you can get the edge no matter how close to the edge you were on the last shine. Even though you're still stunned you can use air control, FF, and grab the edge after getting shined off the platform. Hold towards Fox on the last shine then as you're about to leave the ground quickly flick down&towards or down to FF then back to holding towards to get some air control towards the edge and to allow an edge grab so you don't FF past it.

If you FF too late or don't let go of down fast enough expect to die though since you'll go pretty far down before you can jump. You're allowed to FF a bit late and still get it when you're not directly at the tip of the edge when you get shined since you slip off at a slower speed.

If there's a bit of space between you and the edge on the last one (like a little less than a body width), you can just hold towards Fox/the stage and you'll grab it though you probably want to FF ledgegrab anyway so they don't catch you in time.

 

[bladeofapollo]

I agree with Fox >> Ganon but Waveshine does not work on Ganon, sorry.

I believe that Waveshining doesn't work, but what about Drill-shining? I know it's contingent on the Fox doing it right the whole time, but can't he drill-shine Ganon back and forth across a stage? I know Ganon can grab the edge quickly after a waveshine, but what happens if he never gets the chance?

 

[Divinokage]

I believe that Waveshining doesn't work, but what about Drill-shining? I know it's contingent on the Fox doing it right the whole time, but can't he drill-shine Ganon back and forth across a stage? I know Ganon can grab the edge quickly after a waveshine, but what happens if he never gets the chance?

You can SDI the downair behind Fox or away from Fox. Of course drill shining works on stages like stadium stuck in a corner but.. other than that I don't think it works.

Kaostar: Ya small stages definitely advantages Ganon. But the whole thing about Luigi having good aerials.. his aerials and mobility are just not as good as Ganons so.. Luigi needs to get in from the ground but I still can do my own Ftilt, downtilts and jab to prevent that from happening.. Zoning Luigi is easy. Luigi has to get Ganon offstage somehow. =P I think Ganon >> Luigi.

 

[TheManaLord]

Drillshining is still good but ganon goes decently far from shine so when he SDI's he is far enough away to get out of combos and ****. I can totally see how ganon < fox. Ganon has a hard time getting hits on fox like falcon does, but his hits count more when he gets them, you certainly need a lot less hits and less reading as ganon. Falcon and ganon both get ***** but bc of ganons ability to sdi further from shine he has better defensive options, and he has a **** jab and better recovery.

 

[Animal]

lmao noobs see you guys are still back in 07. SDI lets you get outta all the stuff that worked back then. Heck, it even works on jab resets and fox's up throw upair

 

[Divinokage]

lmao noobs see you guys are still back in 07. SDI lets you get outta all the stuff that worked back then. Heck, it even works on jab resets and fox's up throw upair

Yup pretty much.. There are things some people don't know but I mean that is understandable as well.. not everyone has experienced what the top level is like. =P

 

[TheLake]

I think I gave a pretty good description in my post. Peach can't exploit Zelda's weakness because like Zelda she lacks mobility. And the kicks are the main reason why the it's hardly in Peach's favor, due to her lack of mobility and defensive/counter-offensive options she has hard time dealing with the kicks. And since either character can reliably edge guard the other Peach has a hard time killing Zelda due to her great recovery while kicks kill Peach pretty well. Lastly neither character has any combos on each other, and this match up is slightly in peach's favor because her better move set will give the edge on Zelda while they're trading hits(building up percentage, not koing)

Aww you think zelda recovery is amazing? Your officially awsome :D

But horribly

Horribly wrong

One of the biggest reasons why this matchup is NOT even is because of the recovery factor.

Zeldas forte is her aerial range. She beats all of peachs moves in terms for range. This includes jiggs as well.

But the reason why zelda loses in these matchups is because of her inability to get back to the stage safetly.

Once jiggz and peach are off the stage the only thing you can do is commit to a kick or stand and wait.

Jiggz and peach however can simply hold the ledge wait till you get back on and massacre you with a rest, down smash, etc. Actually your also ridiculously vulnerable while recovering too. Even if you aim for a high platform or somthing all the peach has to do is float out and either bait you towards the ledge (where she has time to grab) or smack you in the face with a drill or ANY of her aerials. Same with jiggz. Peach can also just lob some veggies in your direction and nullify your precious recovery anyways.

We dont have to talk about the ground game vs ground game crap. I already told you zelda out ranges them both. She isnt bothered heavily by turnips because of her neutral b (and you can just catch them lolz) and if they get inside of you then your gonna get hurt anyways but that shouldnt happen cause your zelda and all you do is kick (err..wait a tic...)

So basicly fighting those two is like playing a zelda ditto. It would be even but they can viably recover against you while you can barely recover against them.

Peach and jiggz > Zelda


oh and ganons fair like crushes zeldas Fair

its like DKS bair

laaaame

But you can bair camp so its all good

and your jabs better then his in this match up and you can upsmash out of shield EVERYTHING HE DOES! (not true but you can try!)

Ganon > zelda because they are both aerial powerhouses that can edgeguard each other fine but ganon can grab ): soooo sad

 

[giuocob]

Kaostar: Ya small stages definitely advantages Ganon. But the whole thing about Luigi having good aerials.. his aerials and mobility are just not as good as Ganons so.. Luigi needs to get in from the ground but I still can do my own Ftilt, downtilts and jab to prevent that from happening.. Zoning Luigi is easy. Luigi has to get Ganon offstage somehow. =P I think Ganon >> Luigi.

I know his aerials aren't on par with Ganon's, but...his mobility? Luigi's wavedash makes him one of the most mobile characters in the game. A gay Luigi can spend the whole match just wavedashing all over the place out of Ganon's reach, and occasionally drop in with the Dsmash (wavedashed Dsmash should be on par with Ftilt or Dtilt), and if that connects, Ganon's in for a world of hurt. Obviously this'll work much better on large stages, but it's enough to keep Ganon on edge and poke holes in his zoning.

 

[JPOBS]

ok so maybe continuous waveshining doesnt work THAT well on ganon but you're telling me that

waveshine-> upsmash doesnt work?
and waveshing-> grab?

theres no way sdi'ing can get you out of both of those because of the range on the upsmash and the grab.

I refuse to believe ganon > fox.
also, the thing about ganon gaining a crapload of mobility on platform stages is both a gift and a curse. because you know he's going to the platforms, its ridiculously easy to intercept his wavelands and punish him in his waveland lag.

thats just one thing i wanted to say.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Kage is a beast but Ganon>fox?

Even tho he hits hard, I just dont see him having the advantage lol, at all.

 

[TheManaLord]

he definitely doesn't, there was a typo in my post up there lawl.

also,even though people have DI'ed out of it for years doesn't mean they won't get hit by it sometimes, it's just like all other combos.

 

[Divinokage]

I know his aerials aren't on par with Ganon's, but...his mobility? Luigi's wavedash makes him one of the most mobile characters in the game. A gay Luigi can spend the whole match just wavedashing all over the place out of Ganon's reach, and occasionally drop in with the Dsmash (wavedashed Dsmash should be on par with Ftilt or Dtilt), and if that connects, Ganon's in for a world of hurt. Obviously this'll work much better on large stages, but it's enough to keep Ganon on edge and poke holes in his zoning.

Camping is overrated, there's always an answer to everything. And also I said Ganon >> Fox not >... I said Ganon > Falco lol.