Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Divinokage]

but ganondorf's pimp hand is mighty

Alright fine, nothing can stand against Ganon!!

 

[SleepyK]

THE WARRRIORRRRR

but really. it's hard on stage also, but i would say that ganon has decent tools for dealing with peach onstage also.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon destroys ICs.

what's your count with chu?

 

[TheManaLord]

god i can't wait to get to the zelda matchups

zelda is bottom of mid tier

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sleepy, you can't trajectory DI with the cstick. Only ASDI.

 

[SleepyK]

can you not? i must have misread a post.
my bad.

 

[Blackshadow]

Did no-one notice that ACE's post said that Ganon = Samus?

 

[Dark Hart]

ACE does know a lot about Ganon

 

[KAOSTAR]

can you not? i must have misread a post.
my bad.

No, smash DI is with the control stick, ASDI can also be with the control stick but the C stick has priority over the control stick during ASDI, does nothing during SDI

Get ***** airport security <3

Kage dont give a ****.

kage, if you should've learned anything from this thread, it's that personal experience doesn't matter, no matter how good you are or if you're man enough to bring a sword onto a plane to America

LMAO, at Genesis (In N Out) none of the black smashers could understand how he could get through airport security with that.

We were all like we would have been arrested 4 sure.


Kage went on to try to explain that it wasnt real and its ok lol.

 

[giuocob]

I guess I just haven't played any good Ganons...heh. Somebody said that Luigi's only real approach is baiting an Ftilt or something similar, and I guess that's sort of true, but Luigi can do that easily with a few well-placed wavedashes. Also, I'm starting to convince myself that Down B is completely broken.

Still, it's true that Ganon just has to hit Weegee 4-6 times and then he's off the stage and likely dead. I think Luigi's got enough to hold it to >, but I haven't played amazing Ganon's, so I dunno.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

trajectory DI with cstick is lol

 

[SleepyK]

No, smash DI is with the control stick, ASDI can also be with the control stick but the C stick has priority over the control stick during ASDI, does nothing during SDI

what does this have to do with my post or the original one at all

 

[KAOSTAR]

what does this have to do with my post or the original one at all

Its an example of the answer to a misread post, duh

 

[SleepyK]

oh snap

 

[-ACE-]

Did no-one notice that ACE's post said that Ganon = Samus?

No, I said Ganon > Samus, barely.

And Sveet is right. C-stick is for ASDI only.

 

[VGmasta]

Ganon > Samus barely? Why? I thought the match up was worst than that for Samus.

 

[Roneblaster]

i propose a shift in lingo.

Left stick and C-Stick or Right Stick.

easy, no confusion ever.

 

[JPOBS]

I say we call them

D-stick and C-stick

C-stick is obvious and shouldnt change, but we DO need a standardized, short name for joystick/control sitck etc and D-stick makes the most sense.

 

[Merkuri]

I guess I just haven't played any good Ganons...heh. Somebody said that Luigi's only real approach is baiting an Ftilt or something similar, and I guess that's sort of true, but Luigi can do that easily with a few well-placed wavedashes. Also, I'm starting to convince myself that Down B is completely broken.

Still, it's true that Ganon just has to hit Weegee 4-6 times and then he's off the stage and likely dead. I think Luigi's got enough to hold it to >, but I haven't played amazing Ganon's, so I dunno.

II missed entire discussion because of finals. I think people are giving Ganon's ftilt too much credit. If Luigi wavedashes 8h and dsmashes and Ganon Ftilts Ganon is going to win? Ftilt beats Dsmash? I don't think so.
I still the say the match up is just Ganon > Luigi. Luigi can run circles around Ganonw ave dashing in and out, which sucks for Ganon since he is so heavily reliant on controlling space. Ganon can stop Luigi's recovery but Luigi can do the same, once he's off the stage he should be dairs or baired to death, there is no reason for him to come on the stage. And I think people are making too many assumptions about combos and falling speed, I'm pretty sure Mario is the perfect falling speed to be ***** by Ganon's arials while Luigi is falls slow enough that he can air dodge or jump out of them. Ganon still has the edge in this match up simply because of his weight and strength of his moves, but it's not that bad.

 

[Lovage]

d-stick is a bad name because it's too similar to d-pad imo

i refer to the control stick as "THE STICK" and c-stick as c-stick

 

[JPOBS]

thats exactly why it makes sense tho lovage.

d-pad stands for directional pad. i dont see why we couldnt call it directional stick.

 

[VGmasta]

II missed entire discussion because of finals. I think people are giving Ganon's ftilt too much credit. If Luigi wavedashes 8h and dsmashes and Ganon Ftilts Ganon is going to win? Ftilt beats Dsmash? I don't think so.
I still the say the match up is just Ganon > Luigi. Luigi can run circles around Ganonw ave dashing in and out, which sucks for Ganon since he is so heavily reliant on controlling space. Ganon can stop Luigi's recovery but Luigi can do the same, once he's off the stage he should be dairs or baired to death, there is no reason for him to come on the stage. And I think people are making too many assumptions about combos and falling speed, I'm pretty sure Mario is the perfect falling speed to be ***** by Ganon's arials while Luigi is falls slow enough that he can air dodge or jump out of them. Ganon still has the edge in this match up simply because of his weight and strength of his moves, but it's not that bad.

I doubt Luigi's d-smash BEATS Ganon's f-tilt; Ganon can always down angle the f-tilt too. Ganon also has a d-tilt that reaches out a bit further than his f-tilt. The d-tilt almost always leads to an u-air unless you're already at a high percent of damage. AND if Luigi's wavedash to d-smash gets too predictable, Ganon can just flat out jump over it and d-air it. TRUST ME wavedashing back and forth does help Luigi's approach. But Luigi is bound to wavedash into one of Ganon's move at some point against a competent Ganon who just throws defensive attacks at bunch of different places. Luigi gets destroyed for approaching at Ganon with wavedashes for the same reason Fox will get crushed for running in.

All the slower falling speed does is prolong the hit that is coming for Luigi. Luigi can air jump out of the combo all he wants, he still has to find a way to land on the stage without getting up-aired away. He could try airdodging, but if the Ganon has any kind of reaction time, Luigi will probably get punished anyway.

As far as edgeguarding goes, Ganon's not absolutely dead when he's off the stage (unless he is too low too do much more than Up-B). Plus it's rare for Ganon to be recovery from really low since most of Luigi's attacks pops people upwards instead of just away. Ganon CAN defend himself with aerials that don't last that long and outranges Luigi. Ganon's up-air comes out pretty fast (hit comes out at 6 frames). So if Ganon anticipates Luigi to throw himself at Ganon to edgeguard, Ganon can throw a f-air or up-air to knock him away. Luigi can defend himself too, but again Ganon OUTRANGES Luigi with pretty much EVERY aerial. Luigi has to recover low in order to not get hit. And Luigi can always get from low with d-airs or reverse up-airs from Ganon.

EDIT:
I don't know if all this makes Ganon >> Luigi or just Ganon > Luigi. But I'm 90% that Luigi doesn't have it any better at this match up than Mario or Doc.

 

[Roneblaster]

i was gonna make a **** joke here

but i didnt see it ending well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im fine with left stick or d-stick or w/e. i'll understand what you mean regardless.

 

[giuocob]

I doubt Luigi's d-smash BEATS Ganon's f-tilt; Ganon can always down angle the f-tilt too. Ganon also has a d-tilt that reaches out a bit further than his f-tilt. The d-tilt almost always leads to an u-air unless you're already at a high percent of damage. AND if Luigi's wavedash to d-smash gets too predictable, Ganon can just flat out jump over it and d-air it. TRUST ME wavedashing back and forth does help Luigi's approach. But Luigi is bound to wavedash into one of Ganon's move at some point against a competent Ganon who just throws defensive attacks at bunch of different places. Luigi gets destroyed for approaching at Ganon with wavedashes for the same reason Fox will get crushed for running in.

All the slower falling speed does is prolong the hit that is coming for Luigi. Luigi can air jump out of the combo all he wants, he still has to find a way to land on the stage without getting up-aired away. He could try airdodging, but if the Ganon has any kind of reaction time, Luigi will probably get punished anyway.

As far as edgeguarding goes, Ganon's not absolutely dead when he's off the stage (unless he is too low too do much more than Up-B). Plus it's rare for Ganon to be recovery from really low since most of Luigi's attacks pops people upwards instead of just away. Ganon CAN defend himself with aerials that don't last that long and outranges Luigi. Ganon's up-air comes out pretty fast (hit comes out at 6 frames). So if Ganon anticipates Luigi to throw himself at Ganon to edgeguard, Ganon can throw a f-air or up-air to knock him away. Luigi can defend himself too, but again Ganon OUTRANGES Luigi with pretty much EVERY aerial. Luigi has to recover low in order to not get hit. And Luigi can always get from low with d-airs or reverse up-airs from Ganon.

Yeah...Dsmash actually beating out Ftilt? Not likely, though it could very well hit first if the Ganon's timing is slightly off.

As far as Ganon's comboing, don't forget Luigi's ******** Nair, that comes out on frame 2 and will plow through most of Ganon's attacks if his spacing is slightly off. It doesn't look like much, but it's extremely frustrating. I HATE playing Luigi dittos because it usually just turns into spamming Nair.

Ganon does outrange Luigi, but not by very much. Actually, Luigi's and Ganon's Fair have roughly the same priority, and will usually trade if the two just jump at each other. Horizontally, Bair should beat Uair. In an edgeguarding situation, Luigi has the advantage of being on the ledge and knowing exactly when he's going to jump out and pull the trigger.

 

[Divinokage]

Again, the only way to approach Ganon with Luigi is wavedashing and IS easily predictable. How can you not see that? He's way more limited than Ganon in trying to approach.. and I mean fighting in the air is Ganon's advantage as well since he can move around in the air much easier than Luigi. Also, Luigi has nothing OOS, if his shield gets hit he gets knockbacked way too far. It's an easy matchup.

 

[KAOSTAR]

im fine with D stick

 

[john!]

really? i just did a test...

i rested with puff at 80% and hit her with a fresh full charge shot from samus. no matter where i held the c-stick, puff always flew in the same direction. her direction changed though when i held the control stick. are you sure c-stick is used for asdi? and if it's not used for sdi either then what is its purpose? or do i have a weird version of the game? or am i thinking of another type of di?



oh and ganon is underrated imo...

 

[KAOSTAR]

its literally 1 frame of sdi. what changes is the position that you start flying away from. 1 frame isn't very good di so you probably couldn't tell

also you can't di along the path that you would fly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

asdi is very small and you probably didnt even notice it.

 

[Merkuri]

I doubt Luigi's d-smash BEATS Ganon's f-tilt; Ganon can always down angle the f-tilt too. Ganon also has a d-tilt that reaches out a bit further than his f-tilt. The d-tilt almost always leads to an u-air unless you're already at a high percent of damage. AND if Luigi's wavedash to d-smash gets too predictable, Ganon can just flat out jump over it and d-air it. TRUST ME wavedashing back and forth does help Luigi's approach. But Luigi is bound to wavedash into one of Ganon's move at some point against a competent Ganon who just throws defensive attacks at bunch of different places. Luigi gets destroyed for approaching at Ganon with wavedashes for the same reason Fox will get crushed for running in.

As for beating Ganon tilts if Ganon starts tilting flits down or dtiliting then Luigi can wavedash in short hop and dair, it's like a rock paper scissors, if Luigi's approach becomes predictable then Ganon's response become predictable and Luigi has an answer for it. More important and perhaps more practical than this though is that if Ganon starts predicting Luigi's wavedash in approach then Luigi can just wavedash in and then wave dash out, Ganon will be stuck in his defensive attack frame so you can just wave dash in and hit him. You assume the Ganon is competent but you speak as if the Luigi is ********. Of course if both players adapt with this kind of play Ganon will occasionally win some of the exchanges but it's not as if he ***** Luigi's approach, not by a long shot. And we seem to be forgetting that Luigi has a projectile, he can spam it which either forces Ganon to approach him, or if the Ganon refuses to approach and tilts/blocks/dodges/jumps over his projectiles then Luigi can just keep spamming until he sees an opening, wavedash in and then attack. I still don't get where you believe Luigi is losing here.

All the slower falling speed does is prolong the hit that is coming for Luigi. Luigi can air jump out of the combo all he wants, he still has to find a way to land on the stage without getting up-aired away. He could try airdodging, but if the Ganon has any kind of reaction time, Luigi will probably get punished anyway.

If Luigi double jumps over(not air dodges) the forthcoming upair then he should be far away enough from Ganon to fast fall and reach the ground safely. He may even be able to launch a counter attack after he double jumps over Ganon's uair

As far as edgeguarding goes, Ganon's not absolutely dead when he's off the stage (unless he is too low too do much more than Up-B). Plus it's rare for Ganon to be recovery from really low since most of Luigi's attacks pops people upwards instead of just away. Ganon CAN defend himself with aerials that don't last that long and outranges Luigi. Ganon's up-air comes out pretty fast (hit comes out at 6 frames). So if Ganon anticipates Luigi to throw himself at Ganon to edgeguard, Ganon can throw a f-air or up-air to knock him away. Luigi can defend himself too, but again Ganon OUTRANGES Luigi with pretty much EVERY aerial. Luigi has to recover low in order to not get hit. And Luigi can always get from low with d-airs or reverse up-airs from Ganon.

If Ganon recovers high then he should only get back on that stage if Luigi messes up. There is no reason why Ganon should survive your bairs and dairs(if you're dairing you may have to deal with him coming back and repeatedly dairing him a few times though); I'm pretty sure that both their fairs will trade with each other and if Luigi is above Ganon(which is easy to do with luigi's high jump) Ganon's only option to defend himself is Uair, and given Luigi's slow falling speed he should easily be able to wait out Ganon's uair and fast fall and dair him(perhaps I'm getting a bit too much into theory now, this last part is probably a bit harder for Luigi to pull of than I'm making it sound)

I don't know if all this makes Ganon >> Luigi or just Ganon > Luigi. But I'm 90% that Luigi doesn't have it any better at this match up than Mario or Doc.

I'd agree that Doc has it slightly easier in this match up but Mario? No way. How does Mario even attempt to kill Ganon with his weak *** attacks?

 

[john!]

asdi is very small and you probably didnt even notice it.

when i held the control stick instead of the c-stick there was a very notable difference. you're saying that was trajectory di?

 

[Magus420]

SDI = 0.6 Jigglypuffs
ASDI = 0.3 Jigglypuffs

If you smash a direction and then hold it to both SDI and ASDI you'll move slightly less than the width of a standing Jigglypuff in that direction.

 

[Lovage]

WOW

i always thought asdi was the same length as SDI

that makes a lot of sense actually

ty magus

 

[Wenbobular]

As for beating Ganon tilts if Ganon starts tilting flits down or dtiliting then Luigi can wavedash in short hop and dair, it's like a rock paper scissors, if Luigi's approach becomes predictable then Ganon's response become predictable and Luigi has an answer for it. More important and perhaps more practical than this though is that if Ganon starts predicting Luigi's wavedash in approach then Luigi can just wavedash in and then wave dash out, Ganon will be stuck in his defensive attack frame so you can just wave dash in and hit him. You assume the Ganon is competent but you speak as if the Luigi is ********. Of course if both players adapt with this kind of play Ganon will occasionally win some of the exchanges but it's not as if he ***** Luigi's approach, not by a long shot. And we seem to be forgetting that Luigi has a projectile, he can spam it which either forces Ganon to approach him, or if the Ganon refuses to approach and tilts/blocks/dodges/jumps over his projectiles then Luigi can just keep spamming until he sees an opening, wavedash in and then attack. I still don't get where you believe Luigi is losing here.

Do you know how bad short hop aerials are for Luigi haha
Shielding one automatically leads into being able to punish out of shield because Luigi can't get out of the way due to his floatiness ... and frankly if he's Ftilting you're not beating the log with a short hop aerial because his Ftilt will already be there, in your face, and you'll be eating an Ftilt sandwich

What is this "defensive attack frame"
I'm pretty sure shuffled aerials are quite a bit faster than having to wavedash 2.5 times or so - giving that .5 to bait the "defensive attack", 1 to wavedash back so you don't eat Ganon's fist / leg, and 1 to wavedash back in and hit him
Hmm
maybe if you were you know
dashdancing
but no - wavedashing is just too laggy to do something like that

As for that projectile
it's just so bad
You just jump right over it
It doesn't even bounce
It doesn't even go halfway across the screen
How can you camp someone with a projectile that doesn't even cross Yoshi's story
That's right
You can't

Also do you know how laggy that is
The reason why Doc and Mario can spam fireballs is because they can actually move while doing it
LUIGI ON THE OTHER HAND
what
you wanna wavedash fireball (super laggy) ... jumping fireball (Luigi has no horizontal mobility) ... standing fireball (you're not going anywhere) ...????

Yeah, Ganon dunks all over Luigi in the approach game



If Luigi double jumps over(not air dodges) the forthcoming upair then he should be far away enough from Ganon to fast fall and reach the ground safely. He may even be able to launch a counter attack after he double jumps over Ganon's uair

What
Have you ever played Luigi
Are you aware of how slowly he falls
It's like if you gave a balloon a parachute made out of cumulus clouds that somehow affected your falling speed to be slower, that'd be about how slow Luigi's falling speed is

So when you stupidly use your double jump to get even higher above Ganon, where does that put you
Yeah, still higher than Ganon, and it's not like Luigi's horizontal movement is faster than Ganon running, so you're in the same situation minus your double jump

If the Ganon somehow spaces the Uair so you can double jump over it and Dair him, he's doing it hella wrong

If you have to double jump over him, HE JUST LANDS AND UAIRS YOU SOME MORE BWAHAHAHA can't get away because a fastfalling Luigi is still a balloon ... just minus the parachute - he's still floaty as hell and Uair has ridiculously **** coverage of space above Ganon's head

If this is like an edgeguarding situation and Luigi can make it back using only his double jump and there are platforms ... maybe you have a chance?
But if you're just like ... above Ganon ... you're in Ganon's Uair **** zone and Luigi has very few options out of it other than eating a Uair ~_~



If Ganon recovers high then he should only get back on that stage if Luigi messes up. There is no reason why Ganon should survive your bairs and dairs(if you're dairing you may have to deal with him coming back and repeatedly dairing him a few times though); I'm pretty sure that both their fairs will trade with each other and if Luigi is above Ganon(which is easy to do with luigi's high jump) Ganon's only option to defend himself is Uair, and given Luigi's slow falling speed he should easily be able to wait out Ganon's uair and fast fall and dair him(perhaps I'm getting a bit too much into theory now, this last part is probably a bit harder for Luigi to pull of than I'm making it sound)

If you're not in Ganon's Uair range, you're not within range to feasibly punish him at all
Why are you trying to edgeguard Ganon from above anyways, that's like the opposite of how you want to edgeguard him
If he uses his down-b you go out and Bair / Dair him a couple dozen times until he finally dies at 160%+ ... it's slow but he'll die because be doesn't really have options if he's forced to down-b
If he can make it to the stage with just his jump and up-b, nothing Luigi has sends him at a trajectory that will guarantee you a kill - everything Luigi has can be DI'd like 60 degrees up or just doesn't have the knockback, so Ganon will most likely be high enough to pretend to be Captain Falcon and do tricky DI stuff after his up-b


I'd agree that Doc has it slightly easier in this match up but Mario? No way. How does Mario even attempt to kill Ganon with his weak *** attacks?

About Luigi's Nair - it'll get you out of stuff against people who are inexperienced against Luigi, and that's it.
People who have Luigi experience can generally tell when to keep up the combo, when to break off, when to bait it ... not to mention Uair still ***** Nair when properly spaced.

I feel like I should say that Ganon's Uair is most **** in the region right above and in front of him. Nothing Luigi has beats that because ...

Nair - doesn't have the range
Bair - kickin' the wrong way dude
Uair - still kickin' the wrong way
Fair - chop hits too high
Dair - still gets outranged pretty sure, also pretty slow

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ganon doesn't have to ftilt always ... most of the time he'll do a retreating fair which beats anything Luigi does. If Luigi does a little pump fake and tries to catch Ganon after he lands, then ftilt can be thrown out to cover tracks ...

 

[Winston]

when i held the control stick instead of the c-stick there was a very notable difference. you're saying that was trajectory di?

what ASDI does is move your character during the first frame of hitstun. Only the first frame. Once your character starts flying ASDI has no effect.

What it's relevant to afaik is

1). the "pseudo crouch cancel" effect. CCing is technically when your character is actually in the crouching animation, but if your character is doing a move or something and holding down then he will ASDI into the ground and, if he's at low enough percent he'll achieve the effect of a CC.

2). helping ledgetechs. ASDI the first frame so you're closer to the edge.

 

[giuocob]

Fair - chop hits too high

No way. Chop covers the whole diagonally up, in front of, and diagonally down from Luigi. If he spaces it right, Uair doesn't stand a chance.

I'll address a few other points:

1. I think you're far underestimating how good wavedashing can be. I can't tell you about Ganon specifically, but for many other characters, he can WD forward OOS and punish people who think they can just indiscriminately smack his shield. It's a rather weak replacement to having a proper shieldgrab, but it does its job.

EDIT: Okay lol, I guess that's the only point...

Still on the whole, I can't rely deny that Ganon walks all over Weegee in the approach game. But Weegee has a much better chance of leaving a mark when he does get inside. If Ganon hits Weegee, he slides or flies a million miles away and Ganon has to run after him and try to predict his floatiness: easier than for most other characters, but if there are platforms around it becomes quite a chore. If Luigi gets a grab or Dsmash in at low percent, however, he's got all kinds of stupid options that can toss Ganon up to 50% or more.

As far as SH aerials with Luigi, he gets ***** by his slow falling speed but it's not as bad as you might think, he can fastfall waveland almost everything.

 

[Divinokage]

I disagree, watch me vs Pakman lol in RoM 1 crews.

 

[giuocob]

Haha, that video like 1.5 hours long, about what minute should I be going to?