Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[ChivalRuse]

The Pak of Mans has spoken.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

GaW doesn't need grabs on Kirby. GaW beats him on the ground with a better groundspeed and hitboxes. And he beats him in the air with better mobility and hitboxes. Edgeguarding eachother is about even, I'd say.

We'll save it. Back to Ganon.

 

[Pakman]

G&W >> Kirby. That match is so hard for kirby.

But back to Ganon vs Luigi.

Luigi isn't entirely out-classed. He can edge guard ganon well and has much better mobility (duh). Ganon has better space control and can edge guard as well.

The real thing that gives ganon the edge is the jab and bair. These are ganon's faster moves and just cut right through Luigi's ground game and force him into the air. Luigi is the air is just asking to get killed.

 

[Pi]

no.
you can asdi and trajectory di with the c stick
but there has to be hitstun.

Well, I do not like that

 

[NJzFinest]

Ganondorf > Young Link?

Ganon = YL

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby GaW is stupidly hard for Kirbs. If Kirby had like a useful projectile or something to at least tempt GaW to use his crappy shield and put pressure on him from neutral position, then Kirby might not be horrendous against him. But he doesn't so GaW can just spam moves a la Marth and win.

 

[Alphicans]

Ganon = YL

QFT. Ganon is really easy to run away from. Once again y.link suffers from getting ***** when they actually get in, but unlike falcon, ganon can't auto keep up.

 

[Pi]

Yo I just wanna say that YL probably requires a very high APM

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ganon = yl

+ 1

 

[KAOSTAR]

i cant decide if mewtwo's are better or worse...

Mewtwos easily better. Chargeable kill move, can be held, canceled at anytime, charged in air.

small ones travel in a straighter path, and you have less lag on the end, after you fire I dont have to sit there with my arm out. You can accurately hit with m2s sbs and place them appropriately.

I like that they undulate because they are harder to powershield because it has to be visual, no sound/timing. They cover more area because they often travel back and fourth and can hit once they pass you.

SB has more usable applications than fireballs, thunderjolts, bacon, chargeshot, falco, foxes lasers, sheik needles, samus missiles, eggs, dins fire, arrows, bombs, boomerang, turnips

its better than fireballs bacon chargeshot eggs and thunderjolt, dins fire, arrows, bowser breath-turnips and bombs/boomerang can be used better for zoning or stitch faces and other **** peach pulls ****.

more or equally spammable than thunderjolt, chargeshot fireball eggs, dins fire, arrows, bombs, boomerang, bowser breath, turnips

slower than laser needles and grounded thunder jolts, dins fre, arrows, boomerang

25%damage with 2.0 seconds of charge, only charge shot matches that, but it has a much bigger window to DI it, and can be sidestepped reliably, airdodged, countered, powershielded reliably

You apparently missed Zelda vs. Mewtwo. THAT was heated.

LMAO and it aint over

 

[Dark Hart]

Zelda vs Mewteo is NEVER over.

ZELDA WILL PREVAIL!!!!

 

[NJzFinest]

Idk if this Mew2 vs Zelda stuff is a joke or not.

Zelda ***** Mew2.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Only because he can't crouch under her kick. LOL have you seen that crouch?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

SB has more usable applications than falco, foxes lasers, sheik needles, samus missiles.

this part made me lol a little bit

... then i realized you actually believe it

 

[Fly_Amanita]

*flips coin*

Zelda > Mewtwo

 

[KAOSTAR]

this part made me lol a little bit

... then i realized you actually believe it

Think about it. If it was a pocket knife its got more features. But as far as the blade, I clearly said, by excluding needles, lasers, missiles, that sb was not better than those. Ive never said its better than those projectiles.

but you seem to just think its a piece of ****, when its really not. Its a solid multip purpose projectile, its not as good as lasers needles or missiles, but it really doesnt suck.

Mewtwo beats zelda without question.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

OH GOD IT'S STARTED AGAIN.

Move to the next matchup debate BEFORE ITS TOO LATE! D:

 

[john!]

Zelda beats M2 of course, he has no response to her kicks. Besides, Zelda's like mid tier.

Let's open this can of worms again.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

......

God, no. PLEASE

 

[KAOSTAR]

Man yall not even ready. You just pick that ***** apart, its game over.

 

[t3h Icy]

We're not doing Mewtwo or Zelda right now unless it relate to the current character of discussion. -.-

 

[KAOSTAR]

You *****es got lucky, the icy used a freeze move an imma hold off a bit

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nobody bring up luigi's fireballs again, fire attacks melt IC's freeze blocks. As such, we can't mention bowser's fire, samus' missiles, mario's fireballs, ylink's fire spike, roy's usmash or neutral b, either link's bombs, or spacies' upb.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Fox >> Ganon
Ganon > Doc
Ganon > Luigi
Ganon > Link
Ganon > Young Link
Ganon > Zelda
Peach > Zelda

Currently discussing Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers << Peach
Ice Climbers < Fox
Ice Climbers < Ganondorf
Ice Climbers < Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers < Marth
Ice Climbers < Samus
Ice Climbers = Doc
Ice Climbers = Falco
Ice Climbers = Falcon
Ice Climbers = Luigi
Ice Climbers = Sheik
Ice Climbers > Link
Ice Climbers > Pikachu
Ice Climbers > Young Link
Ice Climbers > Zelda
Ice Climbers >> Bowser
Ice Climbers >> DK
Ice Climbers >> Kirby
Ice Climbers >> Mario
Ice Climbers >> Mewtwo
Ice Climbers >> Mr. G&W
Ice Climbers >> Ness
Ice Climbers >> Yoshi
Ice Climbers >>> Roy
Ice Climbers >>> Pichu

 

[NJzFinest]

Why did you put Ganon>YLink?

Anywho
Anywho, I say...

DK>ICs (bair from platform, down b, giant punch, ftilt, cargo throw, too gay. Has an easy time outspacing them, separating them, and KOing them with cargo up throw to uair. Bum vs ChuDat is a great example, and I can pull up posts/vids from Mexican when I'm not lazy)
Link = ICs (spam)
YLink>ICs (more spam. YLink's bombs RAPEEE ICs and they can't keep up with him on stages with platforms because of their lack of horizontal aerial mobility.)
Puff = ICs (remembering stuff mango said about the matchup and it really doesn't look at bad since how amazing Chu does)
ICs>GW (GW's aerials and dtilt ***** their shield. This means alot since ICs = most shield camping character)
ICs=Mario (his moves push their shield away, just like Doc)
ICs>>Roy (dash dance forward B lol)

I remember Taj saying Mewtwo is pretty good vs ICs, so that might be >. I mean, the dude plays Wobbles.
ICs>Mew2?

 

[Wenbobular]

Based on Chu's podcast, Falco >> ICs

 

[Winston]

How could ICs = Doc and ICs >> Mario?

I don't think their moveset is different enough to change any matchup that much.

 

[Charlesz]

ICs>Falco imo
ICs=Jiggs
ICs>Sheik
ICs>Falcon

 

[choknater]

i bet mario can make it hard if he plays similar to doc

not having doc's dsmash, jab, fair, nair, or pills make a huge difference though

ic's easily beat dk lol mexican's dk punch and bair shenanigans are not THAT effective. ics can camp him back, or whatever. uairs all dai

i think samus matchup is even from watching fly vs hugs. i think puff is even as well. they can deal with her using blizzard uairs dairs, and just outdamaging her like craaaaaazy

ic < falco

that matchup is really hard... they are very gay to each other but. i think its like 48:52 falcos favor lol

falco has lasers dthrow fsmash, combos all over nana
ics have dash attack, desynching through lasers, easy 0-deaths

**** or be *****, they both have ways of getting in but IMO falco can hold momentum better

 

[NJzFinest]

ic's easily beat dk lol mexican's dk punch and bair shenanigans are not THAT effective. ics can camp him back, or whatever. uairs all dai

They are...
They completely **** their shield, beat whatever approach they have, and help separate them. It's even super easy to continuously charge a donkey punch vs them when camping platforms. It was after watching Bum/Mexican beat ICs that I became convinced DK does pretty well and so far, it's been a solid counterpick for me.

How can ICs camp DK when when he can block ice blocks, let alone the fact he has good mobility and can just move to a platform or jump. How are you going to Uair DK if you can't even get under him from his bair spam. ICs don't even grab combo him that well outside of wobbling (surprisingly). DK is fat and lives long and is hard for them to edgeguard. Back air all dai.

Sad thing about DK is no one plays him or cares about him. People also refuse to accept a fat monkey that approaches with his back turned beats their character, regardless of what tier they are. Mad props to RockCrock for being the only DK used in tourneys these days xD

Lol, can't wait until we discuss DK vs Puff and DK vs Marth, people are gonna think DK players are crazy haha.

edit:

CFalcon>ICs

Azen vs Chu, SS vs Wobbles, nuff said haha. Maybe even Mew2king vs Chu.

 

[Merkuri]

ICs < Falco
Ics < Falcon

I can't imagine why these two matches up are listed as even. Falco can split ICs up really easily pillar combos. And Falcon can just spam Knee and Forward B and because of ICs slideyness and move set they can do anything to punish him.

 

[Charlesz]

IC's can grab and **** both of them. IC's can do the fall of ice with nana and grab with popo quite easily against Falcon.

 

[NJzFinest]

Falco is hard to grab and can easily separate/**** them with laser grab to dthrow. I'm just saying it's at least 55 for Falco. I know ICs can do stuff like wavedash to smash (sounds nooby I know) where one ICs takes the hit from the laser and the other smashes Falco in the face. Wobbles is a good example. Also ice blocks are surprisingly good at stopping campy Falcos.

But if you can't DI ICs down throw dair CG, then you have some work to do. Only legit chaingrabbing these days = wobbling and handoffs. It's harder to 0 to death people now.

Idk what to say about CFalcon, I thought everyone agreed he start ***** them haha.

edit:

In addition to my previous post... I say...

Fox>>ICs (shine blind)
Sheik>ICs (aerials from platforms, this is prob even on FD though)
Zelda = ICs (Kawnnnnn)

For sure DK>, YLink>, Link=, Falco>, Falcon> or >>, Sheik>, Zelda=, the rest I don't want to talk about.

 

[Merkuri]

IC's can grab and **** both of them. IC's can do the fall of ice with nana and grab with popo quite easily against Falcon.

ICs can grab either character, and both of these characters can grab ICs o_0; however ICs do not have a good grab game on either of them. I'm not quite sure what you're saying Ics can do to Falcon(your words are unclear) but it's nothing that makes up for the severe advantages Falcon has on ICs. What do Ics have on Falcon as an individual? Because again Falcon can just spam Knee and Forward b(which splits them up and leads into a knee) without being punished. That's pretty ****. If Falcon plays the match up correctly then it may even be Falcon >> ICs.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Merkuri: ...no. ICs can actually d-throw, or d-throw f-smash cg both characters to death (unescapably, although both are very difficult on Falco). D-throw d-air also requires sdi to escape from either character, and since Falco has to sdi down/away, he can really get messed up by a simple f-smash mix-up.

Falco is hard to grab and can easily separate/**** them with laser grab to dthrow. I'm just saying it's at least 55 for Falco. I know ICs can do stuff like wavedash to smash (sounds nooby I know) where one ICs takes the hit from the laser and the other smashes Falco in the face. Wobbles is a good example. Also ice blocks are surprisingly good at stopping campy Falcos.

But if you can't DI ICs down throw dair CG, then you have some work to do. Only legit chaingrabbing these days = wobbling and handoffs. It's harder to 0 to death people now.

Idk what to say about CFalcon, I thought everyone agreed he start ***** them haha.

edit:

In addition to my previous post... I say...

Fox>>ICs (shine blind)
Sheik>ICs (aerials from platforms, this is prob even on FD though)
Zelda = ICs (Kawnnnnn)

For sure DK>, YLink>, Link=, Falco>, Falcon> or >>, Sheik>, Zelda=, the rest I don't want to talk about.

ICs have a ton of ways to get around lasers, not just wding through them. Like you mentioned ice blocks are pretty good at trading with lasers, or can interrupt him for a second and let ICs get closer. If Falco approaches with laser, you can dash backwards and only Nana will take the laser, essentially letting you dd punish whatever Falco decides to do; using Nana as bait is effective because grab combos from solo Popo still do a bit of damage. If ICs run and shorthop blizzard, only Popo gets hit by the laser (canceling his blizzard) and Nana's blizzard can hit Falco.

Grabbing Falco isn't that difficult; ICs can shieldgrab his shine, dash attack -> grab, knock him down and read his tech with a move like b-air, etc. Sh u-air and wd u-tilt are pretty decent at getting under his aerials from a neutral position and can also lead to grab or a smash. If Falco gets hit by any smashes he's in a terrible position; offstage ICs can cover almost all of his recovery options on reaction.

All the other match-ups you mentioned seem completely wrong -- I don't know if you're kidding about Sheik's aerials from platforms, or shine, because those things aren't significant problems for ICs (although shine is slightly more) -- but I won't say anything else until you explain them more.

 

[Divinokage]

From what I've saw, the Falco has to not fail one technical in order to be able to effectively split up ICs, which is **** hard to do imo.

 

[Charlesz]

I agree with Kyu puff and kage. You guys are giving IC's way too little credit. IC's grab d-throw, d-air grab is really god**** **** against Falcon and Falco.

 

[Kyu Puff]

ICs>Falco imo
ICs=Jiggs
ICs>Sheik
ICs>Falcon

These look good to me, but they're borderline calls. Falco is probably = though, and Jiggs is probably <. Chu seems really good at almost beating good Jiggs, but only almost; I think her moves are just too difficult for ICs to punish and she has a big advantage from the neutral position.

ICs << Ganon, hopefully Kage has something to say about this before I do...

 

[Divinokage]

i dont know what ICs can do vs Ganon but I think it's Ganon >> ICs.. it's just so easy to get out of grabs and with every single move, you can easily split up Popo and Nana.

 

[Shadow Huan]

i've got an argument ending statement to make as far as the zelda m2 thing goes but i'll hold off on that and keep it on topic.

Ice Climbers > Mewtwo IMO. if mewtwo plays it right and doesn't get grabbed it's not total ****. mewtwo's d-tilt and nair are pretty good at seperation. it isn't a winning match-up for mewtwo by any means (There are two of them...), but it's not as bad as vs. Marth for example.

SOpopo is def < Mewtwo... maybe? haha...

once a team IC's get a grab... it becomes IC>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mewtwo lmao.

many mewtwo players don't play the match-up properly, as i'm sure taj has said (i'll have to find the post.)

i would think that a big stage would help too. i'll have to play kyupuff next tourny i'm @ and see what i can do vs his ICs they're pretty legit.