Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Divinokage]

I think in the 45 mins.

 

[giuocob]

Wow...that's pretty ****...

A lot of stuff went wrong for Pakman there, he was using tornado waaaay too much and getting punished for it...also, he did a whole lot of just dropping aerials on your shield, which is definitely a bad thing. It was also on FD, which definitely helps Ganon a whole lot because Luigi has no option when he's high in the air except to float down and pray.

I still think it's just >, but it's pretty close. I guess I can see >>. But Luigi's second worst matchup? No way in hell.

 

[Divinokage]

Of course it went wrong, I made it wrong for him! lol.

 

[Wenbobular]

giuocob I think you're far overestimating wavedashing haha
My roommate Winston up there mains Luigi
Frankly I'm pretty sure Ganon can indiscriminately attack Luigi's shield ... wavedashing takes a bit to start up and travel there, and by then Ganon and just jab / tilt you

Uair really does **** airborne Luigis
Luigi's chop covers the front of his body, but Ganon's leg hitbox is coming from ... below
If you're using Fair from above you're ... doing something very wrong hahaha
Luigi Fairing from the side isn't what I'm arguing ~_~ I'm talking about Luigi's options once he's above Ganon's head (Ganon's Fair >>> Luigi's Fair anyways)

Also it's not like platforms really help Luigi that much, if it all ... you're forced to just cower in you're shield if you're on one because Ganon the shark is going to flip you from below
Frankly you never really want to be above Ganon as Luigi (or as anyone really)

Winston brings up the point that any move that can ... tie? with Ganon's Uair has to be started before Ganon starts his Uair ... and if you're starting before Ganon can react to it (I love baiting Dairs as Fox against a falling Luigi ~_~)

 

[unknown522]

SDI = 0.6 Jigglypuffs
ASDI = 0.3 Jigglypuffs

If you smash a direction and then hold it to both SDI and ASDI you'll move slightly less than the width of a standing Jigglypuff in that direction.

why did you measure it in jigglypuffs? It's all about bowsers.....

 

[KAOSTAR]

SDI = 0.6 Jigglypuffs
ASDI = 0.3 Jigglypuffs

If you smash a direction and then hold it to both SDI and ASDI you'll move slightly less than the width of a standing Jigglypuff in that direction.

wow thats crazy, If I get good at SDI I can prob move like 2 jiggly puffs. ****

 

[-ACE-]

If I get good at SDI I can prob move like 2 jiggly puffs. ****

Good luck with that one :>

 

[giuocob]

It'd be fun to play the frame data game with this whole wavedashing OOS thing, but I can't find any shieldstun data on Ganon's moves. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that if Ganon Ftilts or Dtilts Weegee's shield, he has enough time to wavedash out and Dsmash before Ganon has time to do anything else. I'm not sure I can say the same thing about shorthopped moves, though...but I'll mention that if the Ganon gets into the habit of SH Fairing when Luigi wavedashes in, he's going to get a Nair shoved up his ***.

 

[Wenbobular]

No he's not <_< the point of SH Fair is that it dunks Luigi's face in during his wavedash...
Why do you even keep bringing up Nair anyways, it's really an emergency move to get Luigi out of questionable combos / is a fast move out of shield because its hitbox is out on frame 3 ... but it's pretty irrelevant in the spacing game vs Ganon because it doesn't hit in front of him

I'm pretty sure if Ganon Ftilts your shield, he can just ... Ftilt again. Then again, maybe Winston is slow on his wavedashes out of shield .... *shrug*

Winston states that he isn't slow and says that you probably can't Ftilt again but can definitely jab

 

[Vist]

lol all this talk about ganon vs luigi seems so pointless. This match-up rarely ever happens in tournaments much less with both being good players....


edit: i'd just go with what kage has said b/c his matches with ka and pakman probably account for most if not all the experience worth mentioning in this match up to date ROFL

 

[giuocob]

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you now. I don't think it's as bad as he does, but then again, I'm not Kage The Warrior.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

dont anger the warrior. for he may turn into beast ganon AND DESTROY US ALL
ok but i will say >> seems a bit harsh unless its really like a 70-30 *shrugs*

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its prob somewhere in between >> and >. This is the part where theManaLord comes in and says, bla bla bla.... the purposes of this chart bla bla bla....I can see it either way.

Lol.

but just because the matchup doesnt happen doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed and shouldnt be accurate.

 

[-ACE-]

I'd argue against Ganon >> Luigi all day. More like Ganon > Luigi imo. Luigi has more than enough speed to mindgame Ganon and stay out of his range (most of the time). Luigi also has aerials with enough range, speed, and "priority" to compete with Ganons beast aerials. Luigi can also combo Ganon a lot worse than vice versa.

Watch Linguini vs Blea Gelo. Blea's Luigi is better vs Ganon than most of the top weegee's in America, imo. Sometimes I feel like people have trouble seeing which vids are a good representation of how a matchup should be played/turn out. Just because both players in a youtube smash vid are pro or semi-pro, doesn't mean they are an expert on every matchup (Ex. Kage vs Mango: NOT a good depiction of Ganon vs Falco at top level play, although both players are obviously top-knotch). Oh well, my $0.02

 

[VGmasta]

As for beating Ganon tilts if Ganon starts tilting flits down or dtiliting then Luigi can wavedash in short hop and dair, it's like a rock paper scissors, if Luigi's approach becomes predictable then Ganon's response become predictable and Luigi has an answer for it. More important and perhaps more practical than this though is that if Ganon starts predicting Luigi's wavedash in approach then Luigi can just wavedash in and then wave dash out, Ganon will be stuck in his defensive attack frame so you can just wave dash in and hit him. You assume the Ganon is competent but you speak as if the Luigi is ********. Of course if both players adapt with this kind of play Ganon will occasionally win some of the exchanges but it's not as if he ***** Luigi's approach, not by a long shot. And we seem to be forgetting that Luigi has a projectile, he can spam it which either forces Ganon to approach him, or if the Ganon refuses to approach and tilts/blocks/dodges/jumps over his projectiles then Luigi can just keep spamming until he sees an opening, wavedash in and then attack. I still don't get where you believe Luigi is losing here.

If Luigi double jumps over(not air dodges) the forthcoming upair then he should be far away enough from Ganon to fast fall and reach the ground safely. He may even be able to launch a counter attack after he double jumps over Ganon's uair

If Ganon recovers high then he should only get back on that stage if Luigi messes up. There is no reason why Ganon should survive your bairs and dairs(if you're dairing you may have to deal with him coming back and repeatedly dairing him a few times though); I'm pretty sure that both their fairs will trade with each other and if Luigi is above Ganon(which is easy to do with luigi's high jump) Ganon's only option to defend himself is Uair, and given Luigi's slow falling speed he should easily be able to wait out Ganon's uair and fast fall and dair him(perhaps I'm getting a bit too much into theory now, this last part is probably a bit harder for Luigi to pull of than I'm making it sound)

Luigi's projectile is almost WORTHLESS vs Ganon. You did admit that Ganon can jump over the fireball toward Luigi. Think about how Ganon will come down over the fireball with an aerial. The aerial should put Luigi in shield at the very least. And I'm pretty sure Ganon can attack the fireballs too.

I understand what you're trying to say about Luigi's approaches. Luigi's not hopeless in the matchup, But I think Luigi has to work too hard to get in on a Ganon without getting punished and losing a stock. Luigi could try baiting Ganon's openings, but Ganon can also bait Luigi's approaches and punish. TRUST ME. Despite his slow running speed, Ganon's attack priority, power, and range plus the wavelands are enough to bait Luigi's approaches.

Maybe the Luigi matchup is harder for Ganon than I'm making it out to be. But I highly doubt it . So I'll just say that maybe Mario doesn't have it better than Luigi since Mario lacks kill-ability and all.

I still stand at Ganon > Luigi.

EDIT:
Yeah, Blea Gelo is very good vs Ganondorf.

 

[Winston]

I'd argue against Ganon >> Luigi all day. More like Ganon > Luigi imo. Luigi has more than enough speed to mindgame Ganon and stay out of his range (most of the time). Luigi also has aerials with enough range, speed, and "priority" to compete with Ganons beast aerials. Luigi can also combo Ganon a lot worse than vice versa.

Watch Linguini vs Blea Gelo. Blea's Luigi is better vs Ganon than most of the top weegee's in America, imo. Sometimes I feel like people have trouble seeing which vids are a good representation of how a matchup should be played/turn out. Just because both players in a youtube smash vid are pro or semi-pro, doesn't mean they are an expert on every matchup (Ex. Kage vs Mango: NOT a good depiction of Ganon vs Falco at top level play, although both players are obviously top-knotch). Oh well, my $0.02

I think both sides of the argument are exaggerating - Ganon is pretty good at walling Luigi out, and most of his moves are mostly unpunishable when combined with jab, but Luigi does have enough mixups to get in I guess. I'm not sure Linguini's style in those matches was optimal , but I really suck at the mu so I can't say. Blea does seem to be very good vs Ganon.

On the flip side, I really don't think Luigi can combo Ganon as much as you say he can. it's like 2 hits on average, 3 hits max unless Ganon loses his jump.

I could see it being either > or >>. I don't think it's close to even though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Luigi, like many other characters, is actually pretty good at the "let them land onstage then butt**** them for having recovery landing lag" business, even against Ganon.

Up+B KOs at like, what, 80 before the hit, 105ish after the hit on most neutrals?

 

[Dark Hart]

Shoryuken kills Ganon at 80 on most neutrals? ****, down-throw to ****.

 

[giuocob]

Dthrow -> UpB doesn't work all that well, but I've pulled it off/seen it pulled off before.

 

[Merkuri]

Do you know how bad short hop aerials are for Luigi haha
Shielding one automatically leads into being able to punish out of shield because Luigi can't get out of the way due to his floatiness ... and frankly if he's Ftilting you're not beating the log with a short hop aerial because his Ftilt will already be there, in your face, and you'll be eating an Ftilt sandwich

You're overestimating and exaggerating here. If Luigi's spaces correctly it's hard for Ganon to punish his short hop attacks, also the ending animations of Luigi's aerials are quick so Ganon has to time it pretty well to punish him otherwise Ganon will just get hit by Luigi's second areal.

What is this "defensive attack frame"
I'm pretty sure shuffled aerials are quite a bit faster than having to wavedash 2.5 times or so - giving that .5 to bait the "defensive attack", 1 to wavedash back so you don't eat Ganon's fist / leg, and 1 to wavedash back in and hit him
Hmm
maybe if you were you know
dashdancing
but no - wavedashing is just too laggy to do something like that

I get the feeling you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Luigi's wavedashing is deceptively fast and he can start his attack when he's about half way down with his wave dash. A good example is the beginning of the 3rd match in the set between Blea Gelo and Linguini at the Zero Ping tournament, Luigi's wave dashes in, Ganon back airs Luigi waves dashes out and then waves dashes in and then fiars him, it happens fairly constantly actually. Luigi can start the attack before he even reaches Ganon and it will still hit him, and after watching the Linguni vs Blea Gelo set I realize that Luigi can wave dash to Ganon and using moves like Upsmash and Dsmash he can actually finish the animation while he's too far behind Ganon to be punished. It's really cool.. Lastly if Luigi is wave dash dancing in and out then he is moving too fast for you to consistently time your defensive attack. Watch the set mentioned Before.

As for that projectile
it's just so bad
You just jump right over it
It doesn't even bounce
It doesn't even go halfway across the screen
How can you camp someone with a projectile that doesn't even cross Yoshi's story
That's right
You can't

You misunderstood my point completely. You're not camping Ganon to built up his percent. You're camping to either force him to approach you, or force him to doge so you leave an opening. Read my posts more thoroughly before you respond please.

What
Have you ever played Luigi
Are you aware of how slowly he falls
It's like if you gave a balloon a parachute made out of cumulus clouds that somehow affected your falling speed to be slower, that'd be about how slow Luigi's falling speed is

Yeah, and if Luigi fast falls it's not that bad. Have you ever played Luigi? As for Luigi escaping Ganon's combos I noticed a few times in the Zero Ping set Ganon down threw the Luigi and Luigi DI'd away and he escaped Ganon's uair, but later in the set Luigi always DI'd behind Ganon and ended up eating a backair. Is Luigi uncomboable by Ganon's down throw if he DI's away in front of Ganon? Does anyone know the answer to this.

So when you stupidly use your double jump to get even higher above Ganon, where does that put you
Yeah, still higher than Ganon, and it's not like Luigi's horizontal movement is faster than Ganon running, so you're in the same situation minus your double jump

You should be able to fast fall before Ganon can reach you, you also have the option back air him at this point. Also this is not an option a lower percents as Luigi recovers from the move quicky enough to da

ir or nair Ganon before he can Uair.


If you have to double jump over him, HE JUST LANDS AND UAIRS YOU SOME MORE BWAHAHAHA can't get away because a fastfalling Luigi is still a balloon ... just minus the parachute - he's still floaty as hell and Uair has ridiculously **** coverage of space above Ganon's head

Lol, man Ganon is too far to uair you at this point. His only option would be to fair you as you land, your conceptualization of the distance between them at this point is completely off. I think you got ***** by a Ganon at some point and it's affecting your judgment.

If this is like an edgeguarding situation and Luigi can make it back using only his double jump and there are platforms ... maybe you have a chance?
But if you're just like ... above Ganon ... you're in Ganon's Uair **** zone and Luigi has very few options out of it other than eating a Uair ~_~

Yeah that is a disadvantageous position. Green missiling will usually get you past Ganon's upair but then it's about a 50/50 chances of you getting grabbed or faired after wards, it would probably be best for Luigi to Recover low, which is what Blea did against Guini(sorry if it seems like I'm using that set as the bible, but as Ace said it is a good representation of how the match is player at a higher level despite the fact that Linguini is quite a bit better than Blea Gelo)

If you're not in Ganon's Uair range, you're not within range to feasibly punish him at all

Like I said you're just outside of it so that you can fast fall and dair him. Read better.

Why are you trying to edgeguard Ganon from above anyways, that's like the opposite of how you want to edgeguard him
If he uses his down-b you go out and Bair / Dair him a couple dozen times until he finally dies at 160%+ ... it's slow but he'll die because be doesn't really have options if he's forced to down-b

I'm well aware of that, I was just stating an option you'd have if Ganon did recover high. I realize now however that forcing Ganon to recover low isn't that hard, you can just time your fire balls for that he lands on them while he downbs or double jumps, and then you go down there and kill him. Blea Gelo does thins to Ganon a lot.

If he can make it to the stage with just his jump and up-b, nothing Luigi has sends him at a trajectory that will guarantee you a kill - everything Luigi has can be DI'd like 60 degrees up or just doesn't have the knockback, so Ganon will most likely be high enough to pretend to be Captain Falcon and do tricky DI stuff after his up-b

Again make him land fireballs to force him to go down. I realize this sounds difficulty and not really practical, but Blea Gelo was making it look really easy.

About Luigi's Nair - it'll get you out of stuff against people who are inexperienced against Luigi, and that's it.
People who have Luigi experience can generally tell when to keep up the combo, when to break off, when to bait it ... not to mention Uair still ***** Nair when properly spaced.

I feel like I should say that Ganon's Uair is most **** in the region right above and in front of him. Nothing Luigi has beats that because ...

Nair - doesn't have the range
Bair - kickin' the wrong way dude
Uair - still kickin' the wrong way
Fair - chop hits too high
Dair - still gets outranged pretty sure, also pretty slow

Yeah dodging uair is the best option. Hey when you watch Blea Gelo vs Linguini I hope you realize that Luigi lost not because he ahd difficulty approaching but simply because when the two characters trade hits Ganon comes out on top because of his greater damage and weight. You don't seem to understand the match up at all

 

[giuocob]

Merkuri I don't know why you're going on about fireballs. They're completely useless, you can shoot a fireball at someone whose running at you, and they can take the hit and still hit you before you're out of ending lag. They don't do **** for edgeguarding, you can't combo out of them or put on any kind of pressure with them, they're really just there to throw out every once in a while for the lulz.

Also, Luigi's Dair actually does have a fair chance of at least clashing with Uair, possibly even beating it outright.


Wow...this is one of the most debated matchups in this thread yet, and its GANON VS LUIGI. I can't wait till we get to the lower tiers...there's going to be some really epic 20 page debates on GaW vs Kirby or something like that.

 

[Rostigalen]

You apparently missed Zelda vs. Mewtwo. THAT was heated.

 

[1048576]

Shoryuken kills Ganon at 80 on most neutrals? ****, down-throw to ****.

The aerial Up-B is less powerful than the grounded one.

 

[idea]

game and watch ***** kirby

he can kill you in ONE HIT

HOW GAY IS THAT

 

[Wenbobular]

Let's hear from the experienced Ganon / Luigi mains ~_~
I get plenty of Luigi practice, but I don't main Ganon

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi's fireballs suck.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Luigi's fireballs suck.

i cant decide if mewtwo's are better or worse...

 

[unknown522]

Dthrow -> UpB doesn't work all that well, but I've pulled it off/seen it pulled off before.

Up+B has less knockback when the opponent is in the air.

 

[Wenbobular]

Guess I'll address Merkuri's post ...
Watched the set - my impression is Linguini doesn't really have the matchup experience, which in my opinion is one of the most crucial things to have when fighting a good Luigi

You react better to wavesmashes
Have better out of shield timing when Luigi aerials your shield
Know to just go out and **** Luigi's missile because you almost always know how it's going to be moving

Addressing the fireballs again ...
All I saw in that set was Blea short hopping fireballs ... which just puts Ganon in his shield. I don't see how this forces him to approach, because you can't follow them up you're just back to neutral. Just shielding the fireball leads to nothing for Luigi as far as I can tell

Dthrow leads to Uair if Luigi DI's in front of Ganon and Bair when you DI behind, I'm pretty sure this is guaranteed at basically any %

If you're going on this set only when you say "green missiling will usually get you past Ganon's upair" ... I haven't seen a Ganon abuse Luigi's recovery well at this point ... there's a large dead zone above ground level where Ganon can tipper your missile with his Uair, and if you recover lower, Ganon has an invincible ledgehop / massive Dair

Not going to argue spacing because I'll admit I'm not a Ganon main, even if I get basically all the Luigi practice in the world

Anyways ... I don't think that set was the best example of how to play Ganon in this matchup ~_~
Luigi / Ganon main opinions please

 

[Merkuri]

Anyways ... I don't think that set was the best example of how to play Ganon in this matchup ~_~
Luigi / Ganon main opinions please

Yeah I'm kinda loosing interested in this debate, we need the input of people whose use these characters. We need to get Linguini, Ka-master or Pakman posting in here.

 

[yummynbeefy]

for falcon

id say

sheik to -2
fox to -1


i know were not discussing that but still sheik is definately harder than fox

 

[t3h Icy]

Fox >> Ganondorf
Ganondorf > Doc
Ganondorf > Luigi
Ganondorf > Young Link
Peach > Zelda

Ganondorf > Link?
Ganondorf > Young Link?
Ganondorf > Zelda?

 

[Merkuri]

for falcon

id say

sheik to -2
fox to -1


i know were not discussing that but still sheik is definately harder than fox

Sheik can stay the way she is but Fox needs to change. It's not that bad for Falcon and it's not as bad as his match up with Falco.

 

[t3h Icy]

Scar and Hax already went over Falcon/Fox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

When I'm talking about edgeguarding with Luigi's Up+B by just doing it when characters with landing lag land onstage I'm clearly talking about the STRONG Up+B produced by doing it on the ground, not the one that's horrible and useless.

I've had to play against Luigis for years now. The good Up+B is ****. The not good Up+B in the air that only does 20 damage or whatever is completely horrible. They should never have altered the knockback for when he's airborne but they did so it's horrible and shouldn't be used in the same way that the good Up+B is used because it won't kill until about ten million percent.

 

[1048576]

OMG you guys Roy goes even with Jiggs I totally did reverse blazer on Raistlin...

once

in friendlies

when he was sandbagging

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Wow guys.

Once we get below Mario on the tier-list, ****'s gonna get real.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

GaW ***** kirby BTW. Not even fair for the little guy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No way dude, kirby has easy auto combos on G&W, while kirby can duck G&W's grab and even if he DOES get a grab, it doesn't lead to anything cause kirby is so floaty

 

[Pakman]

Ganon is a good Luigi counter. The only way to beat ganon with Luigi is to out-space him and out prioritize him in the air.