• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Merkuri

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
1,860
Merkuri: ...no. ICs can actually d-throw, or d-throw f-smash cg both characters to death (unescapably, although both are very difficult on Falco). D-throw d-air also requires sdi to escape from either character, and since Falco has to sdi down/away, he can really get messed up by a simple f-smash mix-up.
And this ''advantage'' is simply too weak for the match-up to be even. Down air to down throw is SDIable in today's metagame, and the Down throw to F-smash isn't a threat at lower percents. Therefore at the top level chain grabbing either character(this chart assumes both characters know the match-up) isn't an option until they're at high percents. And on Falcon ICs grab game sucks. The only valid grab option Ics have are to wave dash in and shield grab, Falcon can just spam retreating aerials and grabbing him becomes near impossible, because each shield hit pushes ICs shield away. Not to mention that after any hit Falcon can quickly change from defending to attacking.

And again Falcon's nair, Fair and Forward B walks over ICs because they can't punish it. Really go watch Azen vs Chu Dat, Silent Spectre vs Wobbles or Mango vs Fly Aminita to get an idea of how the match up is played at top level. Ics get *****. To say the match up is = is an insult to the chart.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
And this ''advantage'' is simply too weak for the match-up to be even. Down air to down throw is SDIable in today's metagame, and the Down throw to F-smash isn't a threat at lower percents. Therefore at the top level chain grabbing either character(this chart assumes both characters know the match-up) isn't an option until they're at high percents. And on Falcon ICs grab game sucks. The only valid grab option Ics have are to wave dash in and shield grab, Falcon can just spam retreating aerials and grabbing him becomes near impossible, because each shield hit pushes ICs shield away. Not to mention that after any hit Falcon can quickly change from defending to attacking.

And again Falcon's nair, Fair and Forward B walks over ICs because they can't punish it. Really go watch Azen vs Chu Dat, Silent Spectre vs Wobbles or Mango vs Fly Aminita to get an idea of how the match up is played at top level. Ics get *****. To say the match up is = is an insult to the chart.
This is wrong on so many levels... if I'm feeling any pity later I might actually respond to this...
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I think ICs go even with Falco and have a slight disadvantage against Falcon, although I'm not sure if that disadvantage would merit a < on this chart.

And this ''advantage'' is simply too weak for the match-up to be even. Down air to down throw is SDIable in today's metagame, and the Down throw to F-smash isn't a threat at lower percents. Therefore at the top level chain grabbing either character(this chart assumes both characters know the match-up) isn't an option until they're at high percents. And on Falcon ICs grab game sucks. The only valid grab option Ics have are to wave dash in and shield grab, Falcon can just spam retreating aerials and grabbing him becomes near impossible, because each shield hit pushes ICs shield away. Not to mention that after any hit Falcon can quickly change from defending to attacking.
Dthrow -> reverse dair is really hard for Falcon to escape from. Most top Falcons can't get out of it at all if done properly. Also, ICs have more ways of grabbing Falcon than via shield grabs. Utilt and nair combo into grab at low percentages, blizzard often leads to grabs, sometimes uair can combo into grabs on platforms, dash attack combos into grabs. Yeah, grabbing Falcon is hard, but ICs have quite a few ways of grabbing him nonetheless.

And again Falcon's nair, Fair and Forward B walks over ICs because they can't punish it. Really go watch Azen vs Chu Dat, Silent Spectre vs Wobbles or Mango vs Fly Aminita to get an idea of how the match up is played at top level. Ics get *****. To say the match up is = is an insult to the chart.
Nair's okay, but it's not nearly as much of a problem is as the knee is. Raptor boost is really good, but can be punished. At low percentages, it can be CC'd into a grab. If he raptor boosts the ICs shield when they're facing backwards, ICs can bair OoS. Raptor boost on the front of the shield can't usually be punished directly, but lags enough that ICs can get a grab should they guess what Falcon does afterwards. Of course, Falcon can also punish ICs well if he guesses correctly, which is part of why raptor is good in the match-up, but it's not something that really shuts ICs down.

Regarding the sets you cite, Azen knows Chu inside out, Wobbles was playing terribly that set, and Mango is a million times better than me.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I've realized that people are more ignorant about ICs than any other character.

Really, if you aren't an IC main then you probably have no idea what's going on with them (as evidenced by this thread).

The chart isn't bad, proposed changes:
ICs=Jiggs This matchup is really even.
IC's>Mario (not >>)
ICs>G&W (not >>) This matchup nobody really knows about but it is close.
ICs>Sheik IDK if Fly agrees with me here, but hopefully he explains why this could be the case.

The chart has Ganon right. Its a disadvantage, but whoever is CGing Kage isn't doing it right. Dthrow reverse dair on Ganon is as inescapeable as against Falcon.

Which reminds me. Falcon=ICs. As fly said, there may be a very slight Falcon advantage, but it's like Falcon v Marth. It depends on the stage and little mess-ups. Keep it = for sure,
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Luigi > Ice Climbers. I've played this match-up a bunch. On the surface it seems like Luigi's attacks are fairly easy to defend. His primary offenses are SH double aerials, dsmash, and ftilt. All pretty easy to anticipate, right? Well, it's not as easy as it seems. Luigi can approach extremely fast, meaning that he keeps the threat of attacking alive at all times. If Ice Climbers don't shield his attacks, they take massive damage. Dsmash in itself separates Nana and Popo and is a combo starter, so Luigi gets a free chop, dair, or whatever he wants after it connects. He can even go after Nana, as Popo is in the air and helpless to assist her. Luigi's dsmash has even more perks than this, in fact. It hits on frame 5, meaning that if you try to shield it on reaction, Popo might successfully do so, but Nana's shield often won't go up in time, meaning she gets hit, so Luigi takes less punishment from Popo, since Nana isn't there to buff the counterattack. Moreover, Ice Climbers have pretty bad shields. You'd be surprised how quickly Luigi's double aerials munch away at their defenses. Luigi's dsmash takes advantage of this well, since it hits low. Even if Popo gets his shield up in time, it's not uncommon for him to get shield stabbed by the dsmash.

Luigi's double aerials are a great tool at his disposal, for pressuring and weakening ICs' shields, for forcing openings and mistakes, for simply racking up damage. SH dair -> nair is particularly effective, as it takes advantage of the fact that dair is the only aerial that ICs can't duck when it's introduced at SH height. It can typically be followed up with a late nair on their shields, which has enough shieldstun to make shieldgrabbing extremely difficult. Luigi shouldn't have trouble spotdodging the attempted shieldgrab or dsmashing in similar wise as spacies shine to counteract it. This is devastating, as ICs cannot simply shield the dsmash, because their shield is a dot at this point. They'll undoubtedly get shield stabbed if they opt to do so. They cannot shieldgrab for the reason I mentioned. Nor can they roll, as Nana will get hit during the vulnerable frames of her roll. Therefore, once Luigi initiates his sequence of double aerials, ICs are more or less sunk. The only situation where Luigi's double aerials can really be challenged is when he hits the back of their shields. In that case, bair oos can fit in-between Luigi's aerials.

To make the battle even more inauspicious for ICs, Luigi cannot be dthrow dair chaingrabbed. It doesn't even "kind of" work, like on Marth or Peach. This means that the risks involved in grabbing Luigi are more pronounced, whereas in the case of a spacy or Sheik, getting a grab is worth the world. ICs can, of course, KO Luigi as any other character: grab, random smashes, and bair, although, in order to land these moves, there's the question of how to get within proximity of Luigi. Sure, you can wait for him to approach you. But he will not always oblige, and eventually you must needs bring the fight to him. As it turns out, Luigi's ftilt is, like, designed to keep ICs out. To anyone who has not played a wavedash-based character and experienced wavedashing into Samus or Luigi's ftilt repeatedly: I don't recommend trying it. Anyway, Luigi has that method of stifling ICs' advances. Luigi is also great at KO ICs. His upsmash, fsmash, dair, fair, and nair are particularly good at this. He also can occasionally get KOs with up-b, dsmash, and bair. His aerials, specifically, are well suited for intercepting Popo's solo squall.

That's pretty much all I have to bring to the party on this match-up. If anyone disagrees on any points, I'd be glad to go into deeper discussion.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
The chart has Ganon right. Its a disadvantage, but whoever is CGing Kage isn't doing it right. Dthrow reverse dair on Ganon is as inescapeable as against Falcon.
Yes, you can chaingrab him, but unfortunately you can't grab him in the first place. His aerials wall you really effectively and are completely unpunishable on shield. Imagine playing against Marth, but you aren't allowed to shield, and if he hits you once you're instantly separated, and he only needs one more hit to kill Nana, and if he happens to knock you off the stage you can't recover because his f-air and b-air go straight through your side+b.

It's difficult to understand this match-up without playing it, but nothing that seems like it should work does. Linguini beat Chu at Pound 4, and as far as I know there haven't been any significant IC wins besides Chu vs Kage at Pound 3 (which isn't really relevant anymore).
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Yes, you can chaingrab him, but unfortunately you can't grab him in the first place. His aerials wall you really effectively and are completely unpunishable on shield. Imagine playing against Marth, but you aren't allowed to shield, and if he hits you once you're instantly separated, and he only needs one more hit to kill Nana, and if he happens to knock you off the stage you can't recover because his f-air and b-air go straight through your side+b.

It's difficult to understand this match-up without playing it, but nothing that seems like it should work does. Linguini beat Chu at Pound 4, and as far as I know there haven't been any significant IC wins besides Chu vs Kage at Pound 3 (which isn't really relevant anymore).
Well from Pound 3 until now, any ICs I've fought, I 3-4 stocked them lol. Even Wobbles in a friendly I 4 stocked lolz.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
How did you fare against Chu in pools at Pound 3? I don't remember seeing the third game and I've been meaning to ask for a while now...
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Its a disadvantage for sure...

Wobbles isn't good at it.

Fly I have no idea...

Trail...IDK I'll have him post here

Chu does okay...

Those are the big 4 ICs. I don't think it warrants a <<. We need more trail/wobbles/fly commentary on it.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I'm bad against Ganon. I think the match-up is either Ganon >> ICs or Ganon > ICs, but I don't have enough experience against Ganon to be very confident in anything I could say about the match-up.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I'm bad against Ganon. I think the match-up is either Ganon >> ICs or Ganon > ICs, but I don't have enough experience against Ganon to be very confident in anything I could say about the match-up.
Yeah...it's a largely mysterious matchup. It never seems to happen much...

Reposting because I'm looking for your imput Fly:

ICs=Jiggs This matchup is really even.
IC's>Mario (not >>)
ICs>G&W (not >>) This matchup nobody really knows about but it is close.
ICs>Sheik IDK if Fly agrees with me here, but hopefully he explains why this could be the case, heel do a better job.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
So you have two of the "four big ICs" who are bad at the match-up (although I don't know why you're assuming Wobbles is bad at the match-up), a third who recently lost to Linguini, and a fourth who is only debatably the fourth and has no record against the major Ganons anyways. Even if it is a relatively unknown match-up, it is safer to call it << than < because that's what the evidence we have indicates.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Well, maybe I should revise the wording of my stance. I don't think it's like Peach-bad. Personally, I don't mind it that much at all. I'd prefer fighting a Ganon to a Marth, Samus or Luigi. I only consider it a bad match-up because my fellow ICs players all have trouble with it.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
Fox > ICs
Falco = ICs
Sheik = ICs
Falcon = ICs
Ganon > ICs (possibly >>)
Marth > ICs
Peach >> ICs
Samus > ICs

Falcon can actually have a really hard time dealing with ICs' dash-A. It easily intercepts his approaches and leads straight to a grab, or at higher percent you can do uair -> bair which combined does a lot of damage and gets him off the stage. Falcon also can't just throw around his moves because he'll eat desynched blizzards which also lead to grab.

People who are arguing by citing sets where ICs lose to Falcon should also note that Darkrain got completely manhandled by Wobbles a few months ago. It was so bad that Darkrain switched to Fox.

As a side note, I will MM any Falcon at Apex.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Fox > ICs
Falco = ICs
Sheik = ICs
Falcon = ICs
Ganon > ICs (possibly >>)
Marth > ICs
Peach >> ICs
Samus > ICs

Falcon can actually have a really hard time dealing with ICs' dash-A. It easily intercepts his approaches and leads straight to a grab, or at higher percent you can do uair -> bair which combined does a lot of damage and gets him off the stage. Falcon also can't just throw around his moves because he'll eat desynched blizzards which also lead to grab.

People who are arguing by citing sets where ICs lose to Falcon should also note that Darkrain got completely manhandled by Wobbles a few months ago. It was so bad that Darkrain switched to Fox.

As a side note, I will MM any Falcon at Apex.
I'd like to take that challenge.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
Fox > ICs
Falco = ICs
Sheik = ICs
Falcon = ICs
Ganon > ICs (possibly >>)
Marth > ICs
Peach >> ICs
Samus > ICs
I agree with all of your post but I think ICs << Ganon and ICs potentially > Sheik or Falcon.

On ICs vs Mario: Doc's f-air and pills are two of his biggest assets in this match-up. His f-air is safe on shield, is a good separating move, and guarantees him a kill by certain percentages. The only moves that Mario has comparable in power/ability to separate ICs are d-smash and f-smash, neither of which is safe on block. Although it might not be a huge difference, I think it's significant enough that ICs do have some kind of advantage on him. It is a little weird to have ICs = Doc and ICs >> Mario, but it's definitely either > or >>.
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
All the other match-ups you mentioned seem completely wrong -- I don't know if you're kidding about Sheik's aerials from platforms,
Wat... platform camping with Sheik is effective for her in any matchup in this game...
or shine, because those things aren't significant problems for ICs (although shine is slightly more) -- but I won't say anything else until you explain them more.
Wat... then why do Fox players do stuff like "run to waveshine" and get away with it. **** pisses me off lol.

Shine separates them, helps Fox escape grabs, and kills them. Come on now, I'm pretty sure out of all of Foxes moves, shine should be one of the worst for ICs.

Nintendude, I don't play Falcon, but would you like to do DK vs ICs at Apex? I mean, we did DK vs ICs in Brawl, might as well do it in the better game :)


edit:

Guys, should we be including wobbling in this discussion?
I used to troll the ICs forums a lot after seeing Fly and apparently a good number of CGs that include aerials can be DI'd out of.... and wobbling guaranteed... soooo
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
This chart assumes wobbling is banned.

But really these fastfaller chaingrabs rarely get SDIed out of. Fox is the easiest to get out with, but the Falcon and Falco versions are inescapeable for all effective purposes.

Platform camping doesn't work nearly as well for Sheik vs ICs. I'll let Kyu or Fly explain.
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,283
Location
Upstate NY
zelda 45:55 ic

so equal for this chart.

zelda does reasonably well against all floaty and slippery chars, ics are both so she does pretty **** well.
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
But really these fastfaller chaingrabs rarely get SDIed out of. Fox is the easiest to get out with, but the Falcon and Falco versions are inescapeable for all effective purposes.
Then I'm amazing at SDI haha.
Also, when I use ICs, I seem to have a much easier time chaingrabbing spacies then CFalcon. CFalcon "ends up in where I don't expect him to be" after Nana's Dair (like randomly in back of me instead of infront), it's hard to explain. But at slightly higher percent, I do that downthrow downsmash thing, which works nicely.
Platform camping doesn't work nearly as well for Sheik vs ICs. I'll let Kyu or Fly explain.
Idk, I assume it would be on ICs since they don't have good horizontal mobility in the air and are pretty big shield campers. Also, M2K stresses that all Sheik has to do is Bair from a platform, "that's the whole match".

Then again, M2K's opinion after he lost his title = lol, but just throwing it out there. I haven't seen ICs vs Sheik since KeepSpeedN vs Chu. And man... that was a great set.
I know this is the case for the chart, but why? Don't most tournaments allow wobbling now anyways?
^This, pretty sure it's allowed most of the time, I almost always check xD
 

Roneblaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
6,041
Location
#MangoNation
your doing it wrong then mr. finest

peef chooses which side he wants me to end up on when he d-throw d-airs me, making my smash-di 100% ineffective anytime i guess his guess wrong.
 

Merkuri

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
1,860
Not in the mood to respond to that big argumentative post.

But really these fastfaller chaingrabs rarely get SDIed out of. Fox is the easiest to get out with, but the Falcon and Falco versions are inescapeable for all effective purposes.
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Dr. Pee Pee was SDing Chu Dat's chaingrabs just fine at the Don't stop believing tournament.
 

Roneblaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
6,041
Location
#MangoNation
chu was doing it wrong then. smash di is a pretty simple concept, and I can get out of peefs CG's less and less every time we play.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom