Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[JPOBS]

because we're discussing IC right now?

 

[Divinokage]

I doubt you can just camp projectiles vs Ganon, it's not good enough! YL doesn't have the same mobility as Fox to successfully camp Ganon forever, sorry but you will get hit. And YL shield sucks, Shield stab!

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah and fox > ganon lol... I don't see your point Kage.

Oh my mistake fox >> ganon, which is even better for my position.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

ICs = Falco
ICs = Puff

Falcon = ICs
Ganon >> ICs
ICs > or = Sheik

This is what I think about the first several match-ups you listed that I'm not totally clueless about.

I'm fine with ICs = Sheik or ICs > Sheik. I used to always say =, but the more I play it, the easier it feels since ICs can really shut down her ground game and reliably kill her with grabs in a totally deterministic manner.

(Others that weren't discussed much yet)
DK ~ ICs
ICs ~ Mewtwo
ICs >>> Roy
Link = ICs
Luigi = ICs
YLink ~ ICs

The match-ups with tildes are ones I'm not very familiar with. Based on my limited experience against DK and Mewtwo, I'm leaning towards ICs >> each of them since it seems pretty easy to camp them due to their limited approach options. Hell if I know, though.

I really don't know anything at all about Young Link. >_>

 

[Kyu Puff]

I agree with all of those, and I also think ICs >> DK and ICs > Young Link. Mewtwo might be >, I do remember Wobbles saying that Taj could give him a hard time but I don't really know the match-up myself.

 

[PEEF!]

I agree with all that Fly posted for the most part.

I think that if we >> ganon's advantage, then our advantage over sheik deserves a > for sure. It really is an advantage there.

BTW, i think Ganon does desreve the >> now.

But Jiggs=ICs is one of the more important changes that needs to be made to this chart.

 

[TheManaLord]

Ic's matchups are gonna be so out of whack after this

 

[john!]

People's opinions on IC's matchups are just all over the place! dammn what a crazy character

I always thought Falcon was one of IC's worst MU's. I know that one has been talked to death already but I can't imagine Falcon being = if Ganon is >>. Ganon is that much worse?

 

[Nintendude]

I like how all the non-IC players are telling all the IC players they are wrong. You guys don't know crap about this character.

 

[Merkuri]

I like how all the non-IC players are telling all the IC players they are wrong. You guys don't know crap about this character.

This kind of mentality is wrong. Players are often biased about their characters and lack a perspective that the non-players have. This is why lawyers make very bad defendants.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Mewtwo vs IC is pretty equal. AT MOST IC>M2

but It should be within 45-55 and thats pretty much with nana and popo chaingrabs and wobbling.

M2s separates them really easily. Nair, Dtilt into followup, dthrow hits them both as well as fthrow and when you jab them from a grab it hits them both.

He out ranges them and can almost match them mobility wise. his combo game (not cg) is better.

M2>popo


They pretty much have a hard time gettin openings other than wavesmashes. They pretty much need grabs to win this match. If you can avoid that or keep them separate which is pretty easy because of m2s moveset, you should win.

 

[NJzFinest]

ICs vs DK is NOT >>. I guarantee that you've never played a good DK player.

I already posted stuff about the matchup, you kids can go back and see what I said. Hopefully some of this helps too:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3538215&highlight=Ice+climbers#post3538215
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7072890&postcount=571
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3137758&highlight=Ice+climbers#post3137758
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3313468#post3313468
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3313910#post3313910

If it was >>, then how did Chu lose to DKs lol.

I like how all the non-IC players are telling all the IC players they are wrong. You guys don't know crap about this character.

I like how all the non-DK players are telling the DK player he's wrong. You guys don't know crap about this character.

haha

 

[Merkuri]

\
If it was >>, then how did Chu lose to DKs lol.

Um actually it was a best of 5 and Chu only lost one match to Bum as ICs. He won the first 2 as Ics, lost 2 as Pikachu and Young Link. And then Bum beat his ICs on Jungle Japes(a stage that is no longer legal)

 

[Kyu Puff]

Merkuri: Jury members don't make good lawyers either: having no perspective at all isn't better than having potential bias; most of the people arguing against us have opinions based purely on speculation. Right now we have the defendants (whose stories all seem to be consistent) vs the jury (please don't speak during the trial), we just need input from some witnesses.


Kaostar: You're definitely underestimating ICs' range and mobility. B-air and smashes outrange most of those moves, and it's really easy to trade/beat moves because Mewtwo's hurtbox is pretty big and ICs moves are disjointed. D-tilt is good but I think they can cc or shield and punish.


NJz: My DK experience is mostly against kwan, tipman, and **** tom; I have to admit I've never played against bum or mexican. But tipman used the exact strategy mexican described, and although it was tricky to get around b-airs at first, I realized that if you just pretend DK is one step in front of where he actually is it's easier to beat his moves; b-air, d-smash, f-smash and dash attack hitboxes would either hit his foot or his huge stomach. And if ICs land a single hit it's really easy to lead into into u-air/b-air combos or grab.

Charged punch was more difficult to beat but after a while it became telegraphed. That strategy relies on ICs approaching right into DK; ICs can just as easily bait it out and punish. I ended up winning the mm, but pkm, mexican, and bum are probably more experienced in the match-up. But in case you didn't notice... in one of the posts you linked to (the most recent one), mexican literally says, "it's a hard match-up" and "they all **** DK".

 

[FoxLisk]

I always thought Falcon was one of IC's worst MU's. I know that one has been talked to death already but I can't imagine Falcon being = if Ganon is >>. Ganon is that much worse?

in my extremely limited experience playing against ICs, cfal is BY FAR the easiest character to play against them with. And Cfal is probably like my 5th or 6th best character.
This might change at higher levels, but at medium levels this matchup is disgusting.

So I'm thinking maybe pros traditionally go CF against ICs because the matchup is very easy, but in the last couple years IC players have figured out ways to get around CF's options better? Like, maybe CF >> ICs was true when azen and m2k did it, but now IC players know what they're doing it's > or =? I don't know, I havent seen a lot of recent sets. Just my indecisive, humble thoughts.

 

[Merkuri]

Merkuri: Jury members don't make good lawyers either: having no perspective at all isn't better than having potential bias; most of the people arguing against us have opinions based purely on speculation. Right now we have the defendants (whose stories all seem to be consistent) vs the jury (please don't speak during the trial), we just need input from some witnesses.

You assume that because we don't main the character we don't understand them at all? How is that not idiocy?

On a side note your analogy is silly, the prosecution would be the mains of whoever is on the otherside of the matchup. Their would be no witnesses and he Jury would be those who don't main either character(in this case people like me

 

[Kyu Puff]

I was actually implying that the jury are the people who don't main either character, who only know the match-up based on what they've seen/heard. How is it idiocy to value experience in the match-up over no experience at all?

 

[PEEF!]

You assume that because we don't main the character we don't understand them at all? How is that not idiocy?

Because speculation doesnt work with the ICs because you have no idea how they work. That knowledge is needed. THey are entirely different than every other character.

To prove your ignorance, what are the moves that nana can use out of a DD desync. This really isn't difficult but you won't know it.

You also won't know how long ICs can dthrow chaingrab link. Nor will you know what moves the ICs can crouch cancel punish and which ones they cant. You also don't know how to punish Foxes running shine approach, or how to beat falcon's sideb.

The list of vital information that you dont know is probably nearly infinite, yet you are perfectly willing to harp in your unfounded, speculative remarks.

The "oh this person beat this person once!" logic is terrible. All I have to say to it is...I 4 stocked Jmans fox with my jiggypuff once =]

 

[NJzFinest]

Um actually it was a best of 5 and Chu only lost one match to Bum as ICs. He won the first 2 as Ics, lost 2 as Pikachu and Young Link. And then Bum beat his ICs on Jungle Japes(a stage that is no longer legal)

There's 2 other DK players that beat Chu, on legit stages. But I will admit, haven't seen that set in awhile, glad you did your homework. When Chu won against Bum in those 2 matches, did it seem like the matchup was >>DK?


And yeah, I did notice that Kyu Puff, but he's been very successful in beating ICs, one of which Chudat. I'll take >, or =, but definitely not >>.

 

[Merkuri]

in my extremely limited experience playing against ICs, cfal is BY FAR the easiest character to play against them with. And Cfal is probably like my 5th or 6th best character.
This might change at higher levels, but at medium levels this matchup is disgusting.

So I'm thinking maybe pros traditionally go CF against ICs because the matchup is very easy, but in the last couple years IC players have figured out ways to get around CF's options better? Like, maybe CF >> ICs was true when azen and m2k did it, but now IC players know what they're doing it's > or =? I don't know, I havent seen a lot of recent sets. Just my indecisive, humble thoughts.

Me too actually. I go Falcon and I **** an ICs main friend of mine. I'm a better player than him but it's still funny how bad Falcon beats ICs.

 

[giuocob]

I can't tell whether or not Merkuri is trolling. Either way, I definitely agree that he needs to stop clogging the discussion.

I'll probably be on hold until the Weegee discussions pops up...

 

[Nintendude]

I say people don't know anything about ICs for several reasons:

1. Countless times in this thread people have thrown around ridiculous misconceptions about their grab game and ability to fight besides grabs. It's easy to accuse people of being ignorant when they've already blatantly demonstrated that they don't know what they are talking about.

2. There are so few notable ICs players out there and all of them are very unique. They aren't like Fox or Marth where they have been major players in the scene for so long that everyone knows what they are capable of and what options they have. Furthermore, very few players actually have experience playing against ICs, and those who have probably have only played against one actual ICs player.

Like pretty much every non-ICs player's information about ICs comes from watching Chu, and to a lesser extent, Fly and Wobbles. Well, Chu is far behind in the ICs metagame (he mainly relies on being really smart and using basic ICs tactics) and Fly/Wobbles have barely done anything on the national scene. Merkuri, you say that non-players offer a different perspective, but there is hardly enough publicly available information for a non-player to form an educated opinion.

So here's a question for all of you guys: What good ICs players have you played against?

ICs definitely have an advantage over DK. Chu did just fine in ICs vs. DK except when he got taken to Japes and played like an idiot. DK gets really shut down by desynched Ice Shots and Blizzards and wavedash to jab. In the air he has no answer to Uair whatsoever. He's ridiculously easy to grab out of blizzard and jab and as long as you aren't stupid and wavedash into a bair or a Giant Punch he isn't gonna do much to you. He's also the perfect weight to get combo'd by dash-A into Uairs and Bairs, which can easily be a 50%+ combo. If DK actually has an answer to what ICs can do, then go ahead and beat me in the MM, NJzFinest. I'll also MM any other DKs at Apex - it's another matchup I am extremely confident in.

Also, NJ, I have played a lot against Phish-it and Kwan. They may not be the best DK players out there but they are at least notable ones on the EC. Who cares whether or not I actually play DK when I have experience playing against him.

 

[Fletch]

So again I ask, why doesn't this matchup chart take wobbling into account when most tournaments don't ban it? I don't understand.

Wish I had something else to contribute to this discussion but I really don't know anything about ICs besides getting beasted on by Trails ICs a couple of times.

 

[Nintendude]

So again I ask, why doesn't this matchup chart take wobbling into account when most tournaments don't ban it? I don't understand.

Wish I had something else to contribute to this discussion but I really don't know anything about ICs besides getting beasted on by Trails ICs a couple of times.

That's just what was decided awhile ago. Also I don't think that it's legal most of the time. I asked if it's legal at Apex and the response was "wobbling is banned on the EC so no."

 

[PEEF!]

Quick summary of discussion so far:

ICs = Falco
ICs = Puff
Falcon = ICs
G&W < ICs
DK < ICs
ICs > Mewtwo
ICs >>> Roy
Link = ICs
Luigi = ICs
YLink < ICs
Zelda < ICs
Fox>ICs
Peach>>ICs
________________________
________________________

Need finalization:
Ganon > or >> ICs
ICs > or = Sheik

Nintendude's last post was really good.

Continue discussion. Quote this post if youd like.

 

[NJzFinest]

So here's a question for all of you guys: What good ICs players have you played against?

Trail is pretty good.
I actually don't remember if I used DK or Fox vs him though...

ICs definitely have an advantage over DK. Chu did just fine in ICs vs. DK except when he got taken to Japes and played like an idiot.

And except when he played Mexican and PKM

DK gets really shut down by desynched Ice Shots and Blizzards and wavedash to jab.

How does he get shut down by Ice Shots and Blizzards considering how surprisingly mobile he is. Check out Mexican vs SideFX.
Wavedash approaches get shut down by Giant Punch, Bair, Ftilt, and Down B.

In the air he has no answer to Uair whatsoever.

This is true, vs any character, DK sucks when they're right under him

He's ridiculously easy to grab out of blizzard and jab

As most other characters....

and as long as you aren't stupid and wavedash into a bair or a Giant Punch he isn't gonna do much to you.

That's true, if you don't move within a move's range, that move isn't going to do much to you. Do consider that DK isn't going to just be waiting for you to approach with a wavedash. These moves are fairly save when they're "standing", dashdancing, or shieldcamping.

He's also the perfect weight to get combo'd by dash-A into Uairs and Bairs, which can easily be a 50%+ combo.

Yeah, he's a good combo bag

If DK actually has an answer to what ICs can do, then go ahead and beat me in the MM, NJzFinest. I'll also MM any other DKs at Apex - it's another matchup I am extremely confident in.

Well, why else would I MM you lol.
Only other DKs that would show up to Apex = PKM and Rockcrock, fyi.

Also, NJ, I have played a lot against Phish-it and Kwan. They may not be the best DK players out there but they are at least notable ones on the EC. Who cares whether or I actually play DK when I have experience playing against him.

Don't make it seem like I was single'n you out when I brought that up -_- I'm sure you're the only IC player who has solid DK experience lol. However, it was until now that you actually commented on the matchup.

Still don't think this is >>.

YLink < ICs

Attention ICs players, what makes ICs have the advantage in this?

On paper, it seems worse then fighting Link.

 

[choknater]

lol you guys have to play ic's to understand ic's vs falcon

they both have ways to **** each other really really hard and are both have very fast horizontal movement

IMO, the ics falcon matchup is 70:30, 60:40, 50:50, 40:60, and 30:70

just depends on the match at hand and how good/confident the players are : )

seriously sometimes my only thoughts in the matchup are like this:

"i should grab him or get a dash attack so that i can kill him instantly. yay i got a grab. wow i got 4 grabs and won, so easy" or "wow falcon is too fast, i am getting *****. one knee is death"

and when i play falcon vs ic's

"i feel like i can just run around and knee them all day. i won this match with like only knees. raptor boost and stomp sometimes, killing nana is easy" or "what the hell, how is he getting these grabs. i just got ***** "

its like fox vs falco

no matter how many matches u see of fox getting 3/4 stocked or falco getting 3/4 stocked... the matchup remains mysterious, very back and forth, and momentum/player based

its not like peach vs puff where spacing games are so key. i mean, spacing is important, but sometimes u have to just commit to a crazy approach cuz the matchup is KILL OR BE KILLED. that might just be how i play though

 

[Kyu Puff]

I know exactly what you mean chok, well said.

NJzFinest: People assume Link does well because of projectile spam, and that Young Link will do better because of more projectile spam. What I find harder about Link, though, is that he has enormous hitboxes and a lot of close-range priority that easily separate ICs and make him difficult to approach -- d-smash, u-tilt, f-air, even his jab.

Usually ICs play defensively against this kind of character, but bombs and boomerang force them to approach. YL's moves lack the power and range that threaten ICs at close range, so they don't have this problem at all. Although his bombs are really good, ICs don't have nearly as much trouble approaching, and even more importantly, killing him.

 

[Nintendude]

PKM said that he's beaten Chu's ICs twice. There's no context there whatsoever. It could have been 2 friendlies out of like 15, and I think if it was a tournament set he would have said so.

When I said that DK is easily grabbed out of blizzard and jab, what I really meant is that he's particularly susceptible to those moves because he's huge, gets owned in close quarters, and is bad at punishing them (blizzard in particular). Blizzard is extremely safe because his only way to do anything about it is either run away or jump over it, but if he jumps over it he eats Uair and starts getting owned. He can try to Giant Punch as it ends but that requires a very precise spacing that's easy to react to - basically if DK doesn't retreat you can just approach him with Popo through the Blizzard. DK's best way to get around that is Bair which you can just shield/roll away from (he also has to be careful not to get poked in the foot by the Blizzard), and if he does that, he failed to punish the Blizzard. There's obviously more to it than that and there's a lot of mixups on both sides but the bottom line is that DK has a hard time dealing with this move.

Also, SideFX is a pretty crummy ICs player in my opinion. He wavedashes into DK's bairs and then tries to shieldgrab them which is absolutely ********. His idea of shooting stuff is occasionally shoot a couple Ice Blocks, which DK just jumps over and then he does not react to that at all. Then once in awhile he'll desynch and start shooting some things IN PLACE and get Giant Punched in the face. He doesn't use dash-A whatsoever and his punishment in general was very lame. He also fails to pressure DK when he's above him. He just jumps around doing nothing and then Mexican falls through and bairs him. Very poor example imo.

I think it's a really hard matchup but don't really know exactly how bad it is. I'll wait until I play the DKs at Apex to make up my mind.

 

[choknater]

i had no problem with mexican last time i played him lol

but he tends to say things like 'its ok i play dk'

and it was friendlies

idk i see no problem in dealing with with dk's so called bair and giant punch camping gimmicks

 

[Merkuri]

Because speculation doesnt work with the ICs because you have no idea how they work. That knowledge is needed. THey are entirely different than every other character.

To prove your ignorance, what are the moves that nana can use out of a DD desync. This really isn't difficult but you won't know it.

You also won't know how long ICs can dthrow chaingrab link. Nor will you know what moves the ICs can crouch cancel punish and which ones they cant. You also don't know how to punish Foxes running shine approach, or how to beat falcon's sideb.

The list of vital information that you dont know is probably nearly infinite, yet you are perfectly willing to harp in your unfounded, speculative remarks.

The "oh this person beat this person once!" logic is terrible. All I have to say to it is...I 4 stocked Jmans fox with my jiggypuff once =]

Ice Blocks and blizzard are two moves that ICs can use out of blizzard. I think you're assuming we all know nothing of the character so you can feel more special for maining ICs.

And this persons beats this person isn't terrible logic at all. We van sit here and spit theory all day but watching match between top pros actually shows us the practical side of it. We can say ''this beat this'' but watching the match actually proves what beats what. Vids show the practical side of it. And you didn't beat 4 stock jman in TOURNAMENT recently therefore your win is irrelevant.

@giuocob: You know you can debate civilly without being a douche and insulting me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Because speculation doesnt work with the ICs because you have no idea how they work. That knowledge is needed. THey are entirely different than every other character.

But ICs are exactly the same as other characters, in a lot of ways I think they are more basic than the charcters above them. Most of their variance and difficulty is in their chaingrabs and mixups, which are pretty much equivalent to each other in terms of output but vary in application.

 

[PEEF!]

Links projectile spam is no biggie.

As Kyu said, the problem is in the hitboxes and range. Link can lock down the ICs on shield with first hit fsmash, jabs, fair and dsmash. This is the most frustrating part of the matchup, I play it alot. Link can edgeguard easy with upb, and most importantly, he lives forever and can't be reliably cged past 40 (aka when Popo dthrow CG ends).

Ylink can't lock ics down, and he does hella fast.

 

[choknater]

seriously though this is a matchup discussion so i think more credibility goes to people who main the character

im using this thread not to discuss ratios but to discuss and improve my knowledge on the matchup

saying who beats who can be a good point.... but it can only go so far :D

 

[PEEF!]

Link does well, as Kyu said, because of his **** hitboxes. He can totally lock down ICs on shield with Fair, jab, dsmash, and first hit of fsmash. It all hurts bad. Ylink can't do this. That's the dealbreaker. Projectile spam is no biggie.

Ice Blocks and blizzard are two moves that ICs can use out of blizzard.

wut? I said out of dash dance.

 

[Oracle]

Does the matchup chart for IC's factor in wobbling? In some matchups, like floaties, it makes a ton of difference. If not, I think we should have separate rows for IC's with and without wobbling

 

[choknater]

i played a friendly against germ one time a while back, i didnt feel 'locked down' at all

ic's wd is so fast and it takes him time to pull stuff out and throw it. his range is good but take into account how much range the wd can cover. one wrong blocked move with link and it can mean cg, or dthrow FSMASH and link gains so much % trying to recover

link might have some tricks but i feel like he has the uphill battle

ic's got this

 

[Merkuri]

Link does well, as Kyu said, because of his **** hitboxes. He can totally lock down ICs on shield with Fair, jab, dsmash, and first hit of fsmash. It all hurts bad. Ylink can't do this. That's the dealbreaker. Projectile spam is no biggie.



wut? I said out of dash dance.

It's a typo I'm apparently too sleepy to keep arguing.

@1wingedangel: Since pound 4 wobbling has been banned at almost every tournament. So wobbling is not factored into the chart.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Wobbling isn't banned all the time... I think it's not factored into the chart because it's productive to discuss how grab game varies from character to character rather than just assume that grab = death.

 

[Alphicans]

Link's mid range isn't that much better than y.link's, and I'd argue that y.link has a better distance and close up game in this particular match-up, due to his faster move set.