Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[choknater]

agree with alphicans

link's lack of speed plays too much of an issue i think

 

[Merkuri]

Wobbling isn't banned all the time... I think it's not factored into the chart because it's productive to discuss how grab game varies from character to character rather than just assume that grab = death.

These it's banned at 80% of tournaments and what seems to be every major tournament. It's not factored in the chart because at the top level almost no one is allowed to wobble anymore.

 

[PEEF!]

It's a typo I'm apparently too sleepy to keep arguing.

Well, Nana can't Iceblock out of dash dance desync so my point is proven. You don't know what you're talking about.

Wobbling is banned at about half, someone did a study recently.

 

[NJzFinest]

Wasn't using SideFX as an example of how well DK does, rather how DK can just move around Ice Blocks haha.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Alphicans: I disagree, I don't think speed is really isn't an issue; Ganondorf's moveset is harder for me to deal with than Marth's for example. Link's moves push your shield farther, they're better at separating you, and they have big meaty hitboxes that make it more difficult to approach. YL's moves just don't apply the same kind of pressure. On top of that Link lives forever if he recovers well and Young Link dies really early; weight and recovery are significant because ICs grab game isn't great in either of these match-ups.

imo

ICs > or = Link
ICs > Young Link

 

[ChivalRuse]

Attention ICs players, what makes ICs have the advantage in this?

On paper, it seems worse then fighting Link.

Yea, I think ICs = YL. Just from fighting Laijin in that match-up, I feel like ICs can't have the advantage.

Bomb dropping is extremely effective due to YL's top tier mobility around platforms and just in the air in general. Uairs **** ICs, surprisingly. That hitbox is pretty broken. YL's horizontal air speed is like perfect for following them from below and relaunching them with uairs. Dsmash also separates ICs well and is good for KOing them. On the other hand, Link's up-b is really punishable, and he's just a slower character all around, meaning ICs have more opportunities to get in and deal heavy damage.


I could reconcile myself with YL being a harder fight than Link.

 

[t3h Icy]

ICs = Puff
ICs > G&W
ICs > Mario
Falcon = ICs
ICs = Falco
ICs > Mewtwo
Ganon >> ICs

Link = ICs?
ICs > DK?
ICs ? Sheik
Zelda = ICs?
Luigi = ICs?
ICs > YLink?

Merkuri, who do you even main?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea, I think ICs = YL. Just from fighting Laijin in that match-up, I feel like ICs can't have the advantage.

I could reconcile myself with YL being a harder fight than Link.

Link = ICs?
YLink > ICs?

I would like to have it at ICs > Link and ICs = YL. I can understand if people disagree with me though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

i kinda think IC mewtwo is closer to even then IC>m2
and M2 def>sopopo, and he is good at getting rid of nana.

 

[PEEF!]

YLink > ICs?

What a joke. Show me one young link player that has beaten a good Ice climber player. People love going crazy with theoretical ideas. The fact of the matter is that no young link player could beat a good IC player.

I say Link<ICs and Ylink<ICs

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Falcon > IC

I'd say that it's like possibly 60-40/55-45 Falcon's advantage. I definitely think it's worse on larger stages than it is on smaller ones.

The matchup revolves around FAlcon running around spamming aerials and then immediately backing out unless he hitconfirms either climber. On the Ice Climber's side, its all about trying to break through Falcon's defense while not putting yourself too badly at risk. IC has to STAY on Falcon and not give him any room to breathe. The problem is, it's very hard to keep up with Falcon when he's dash-dancing around throwing out hard aerials.

The trick is to NOT get stuck in your sheild. Knees and stomps are the main moves that he'll hit your sheild with, since they are hella safe if L-cancelled. Not to mention, if he chooses to, he could just grab you and immediately Dthrow you out of your sheild and continue pressuring. He's one of the only chars that can grab IC and stay safe.

The good thing is, you can beat both Knee and stomps with your disjointed hitboxes IF you call him on his approach. If you see him jumping at you, you could do a reactionary retreating Fair/Bair or a Wavedash back Fsmash. However, this is only if he approaches you from mid-range, which isn't where you should be. Like I said, you have to stick to Falcon as best you can.

You may notice that I haven't mentioned Raptor Boost. Raptor Boost is a WEIRD move. I know that *I* personally get hit by it nearly everytime the Falcon I play against throws it out. But I tend to fall for really stupid things, regardless of whether I see it coming or not. If IC sees the Raptor Boost coming, at low percents, we could just CC and grab him out of it. OR we could just outright crush it with a move that beats it priority-wise. Hell, I once recall actually GRABBING the Falcon out of Raptor Boost one time. You have to be a god**** mind reader though to do that or have stupid good reaction-time, i guess. If Falcon connects with Raptor Boost, you can either say goodbye to your stock if it hits you, or goodbye to your nana if it hits her.

Edgeguarding on both ends is really even. Falcon can just uair/bair the IC repeatedly out of Squall Hammer until you die. And we can jump out REALLY FAR and Bair/Nair Falcon out of his recovery and Squall back if we have both climbers.

In the end, FAlcon more or less dictates the pace of the match while IC are trying to catch-up to him. The rewards for landing a punish on both sides pretty much mean death for the other BUT Falcon, while not necessarily having a better APPROACH, has a better "Opportunism Factor" which means he can get in and out on IC alot easier than the other way around.

60/40-55/45 Falcon, IMO. Leaning more towards 60/40 though.



Also, whoever said Falcon is better vs IC than MArth is silly as hell.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

PEEF that logic is totally flawed

... not that there really is any good logic in this thread

 

[NJzFinest]

I'll take ICs>DK, that seems right/acceptable. I just wanted to stress on the >> that was there previously...

What a joke. Show me one young link player that has beaten a good Ice climber player.

Show me one IC player that beat a good YLink.

People love going crazy with theoretical ideas. The fact of the matter is that no young link player could beat a good IC player.

Prove it.

That's the problem with some of these matchups... they never... "happened" before xD.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Show me one IC player that beat a good YLink.

<3 u carl!! ****

 

[ChivalRuse]

What a joke. Show me one young link player that has beaten a good Ice climber player. People love going crazy with theoretical ideas. The fact of the matter is that no young link player could beat a good IC player.

I say Link<ICs and Ylink<ICs

This isn't theory to me, only for you. I already stated that I've played a reasonable amount against a good YL, Laijin (I've never beaten him in that match-up).

Show me one IC player that beat a good YLink.

You're amazing.

 

[Alphicans]

Sadly, when it comes to low tier match-ups, theory is the best we got .

Kyu Puff, is link's shield knock back really an argument of yours? -_____-.

Also, Y.link doesn't die that early, and link definitely does not live forever, at least not when comparing the two.

 

[PEEF!]

Ice Climber's side, its all about trying to break through Falcon's defense

What is this i dont even.

It is not at all about getting thru falcons defense. Ironically, it is the exact opposite. It is about getting through Falcons OFFENSE. Everything the ICs have in this matchup is based on using the ICs disjointedness to catch Falcon out of his jumps or approaches with something that will either combo or kill.

NJz, point taken.

However, even in theory baby link doesn't have much on them. Maybe Chu would know because he plays them both, but he isn't here to discuss.

The fact of the matter is that Ylink dies so fast (Charged Fsmash dthrow from just about anywhere at 70), he can't lock ics down on shield, and his projectile game is not too difficult to deal with. It can all be wavedash>cced. I do this against link alot now, and taking 5-10% each approach is no big deal whenever one successful approach means between 50% and Death vs ylink. There is no way that ylink can consistently shut down the ICs WD, bair, and uair with projectiles without catching the strap.

It isn't the easiest MU, but after playing Lemon's baby link (and I know that isn't saying TOO much) it was too easy to kill, and not hard to sneak in a powerful hit/grab> edgeguard.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

What is this i dont even.

It is not at all about getting thru falcons defense. Ironically, it is the exact opposite. It is about getting through Falcons OFFENSE. Everything the ICs have in this matchup is based on using the ICs disjointedness to catch Falcon out of his jumps or approaches with something that will either combo or kill.

Defining FAlcon's defense and Offense is really tough to do. Yeah, some things are obvious, like retreating Bairs but some things AREN'T obvious. Falcons that play best in this matchup play a REALLY TIGHT offense. In and out like a robbery or a booty call. Perhaps defense was the wrong word to use. I suppose campiness would be a better choice? Or I guess opportunism.

 

[PEEF!]

I mean, I guess you could call his good offense good defense. But it is constant hitboxage, and total control. He is almost always in control, but we squeak in there with little uairs, utilts, nairs and stuff when we think we can. I have never seen a Falcon vs IC match when the ICs are controlling, but our grab and combo starting moves do make this an even MU.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I mean, I guess you could call his good offense good defense. But it is constant hitboxage, and total control. He is almost always in control, but we squeak in there with little uairs, utilts, nairs and stuff when we think we can. I have never seen a Falcon vs IC match when the ICs are controlling, but our grab and combo starting moves do make this an even MU.

Okay, having good punishment is fine and makes the matchup easier when we can actually LAND it. However, I'm trying to analyze the matchup based on everything at hand. Both characters have very POTENT punish games against one another, which makes the matchup look even. However, I believe that Falcon has an easier time forcing mistakes or just generally staying safe against IC than we have against him.

I'm not saying that Falcon ***** IC. I'm saying its an advantage. It can definitely be overcome BUT it's one that's still worth noting.

 

[PEEF!]

I might agree that it is a teenie advantage, but I disagree that it is worth noting, because it might be non-existant.

Fly goes even with SS, beats Scar and S2J, and Wobbles recently ***** Darkrain. These 2 represent the current metagame much better than Chu, who still gets cited for these matchups from like 2-3 years ago. Things have changed, and for the better in the IC's case.

 

[Roneblaster]

plur i cant take anything you say seriously, if falcon just runs in and grabs naked like that, theres a decent chance he will lose his stock.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I suppose I'll settle for it being an even matchup for the chart but I won't be happy about it. lol

I wanna do a write-up about MArth/ICs but I'm not sure if I have the patience to.

Regardless, 70/30 MArth. It's just as bad as PEach.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

plur i cant take anything you say seriously, if falcon just runs in and grabs naked like that, theres a decent chance he will lose his stock.

Are you an idiot?

I said Falcon can GRAB IC OUT OF THEIR SHEILD. *facekeyboard*

 

[NJzFinest]

I think Peach, Fox, and Ganon do better then Marth.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Fox and PEach, I can understand.

But Ganon, no. The matchup sucks yes, but Ganon has much more of a.....rhythm, I guess than Marth and it's alot easier to disrupt said rhythm than it is to disrupt MArth's. Yes, Ganon is alot safer on shield but the point of the matchup is to NOT get locked up in your shield.

 

[Merkuri]

I might agree that it is a teenie advantage, but I disagree that it is worth noting, because it might be non-existant.

Fly goes even with SS, beats Scar and S2J, and Wobbles recently ***** Darkrain. These 2 represent the current metagame much better than Chu, who still gets cited for these matchups from like 2-3 years ago. Things have changed, and for the better in the IC's case.

Fly goes even with SS? You just made that up right? The two rarely play in tournament and SS destroyed him at nice shot Hugo. And Fly Aminita is a lot better than S2J, so I don't think that is a relevant example. Darkrain is an outlier, he sucks just sucks at this match up. Chu Dat ***** him at Pound 3, despite getting ***** by Azen's(not as good) Falcon at the same tournament.
I don't think things have changed at all. In fact Hax recently beat Chu at some east coast tournament(I think it was no Johns tournament); Falcon still beats ICs and hopefully that will become more clear at Cataclysm and Apex.

 

[NJzFinest]

; Falcon still beats ICs and hopefully that will become more clear at Cataclysm and Apex.

As long as ICs players show up -_-

 

[Merkuri]

As long as ICs players show up -_-

Yeah there were like 3 ICs players at Pound 4 right?

Edit: I forgot to mention that Gamer Guitarist defeated Wobbles using Falcon. Go watch the set, an relatively unknown player was able to beat a respected top pro by running around spamming aerials. Yeah, that match up is definitely even.

 

[t3h Icy]

What a joke. Show me one young link player that has beaten a good Ice climber player. People love going crazy with theoretical ideas. The fact of the matter is that no young link player could beat a good IC player.

I say Link<ICs and Ylink<ICs

>_> I had ICs/YLink backwards. I meant to have ICs > YLink.

Also Merkuri, who do you actually main? =)

EDIT: Also you guys can't really base match-ups on players, unless both players are at maximum level and know the match-up. Mango loses to Kage because he doesn't know the match-up against Ganondorf, despite using characters that are good against him.

Also anything relating to Chudat is outdated. At Pound 4 he beat Shroomed, lost to Mango, beat G$ and lost to Dr.PeePee, which aren't Falcon players.

 

[PEEF!]

I think Peach, Fox, and Ganon do better then Marth.

And Samus.

I play the Marth matchup alot alot. This matchup is deff hard. No doubt a disadvantage. However, time and time again, ICs have shown that this matchup is extremely winnable. Since everyone is quoting Chu, this is a matchup that Chu never had a big issue with. He went even with marths his whole career. Wobbles also does very well with this MU even tho he recognizes it IS hard. On paper it is absolutely terrible, but the ICs always end up getting in, wreaking havoc and completing an easy edgeguard. Sometimes it seems impossible, but the ICs just have too many tricks and too much speed, they always get in, and Marth can only retreating fair so far.

Also, Fly did beat SS and Scar. He didn't get ***** at Nice Shot Hugo either. He lost, but it was close.

Umm, as far as Apex being the judge of a matchup, and you like citing Chu so much, why don't you just look at how Chu beat Darkrain at Pound 4? (and Pound 3 =D)

You are the type that says "Oh, I like to quickly discount your very good evidence, and act like mine is all that matters!"

I will admit that sometimes Falcon ***** ICs, but sometimes ICs **** Falcon and you need to stop denying it. Its even. Now lets move on.

 

[Nihonjin]

A little late, but I don't care.

Amsahs bias and minimal NTSC tourny experience

Really, what bias?
I beat every single Peach in NTSC, including Armada. So it's not a personal issue for me.

Shouldn't alter anything we've known for years

European Peach > American Peach
European Sheik > American Sheik.

How much do you know, really?

 

[Merkuri]

Since everyone is quoting Chu, this is a matchup that Chu never had a big issue with. He went even with marths his whole career.

Woah, OMG I can't believe I read that!!! Dude Chu's record with Ken is like 16-2 with in Ken's favor(And I'm not exaggerating) Ken pretty much always beat him on any stage that wasn't FD. It got to the point where Chu started picking Jigglypuff and Y-ling against Ken instead of ICs. Also when they were both in their prime M2k's marth usually got the better of Chu(something his Fox had a hard time doing)

Also, Fly did beat SS and Scar. He didn't get ***** at Nice Shot Hugo either. He lost, but it was close.

Umm, as far as Apex being the judge of a matchup, and you like citing Chu so much, why don't you just look at how Chu beat Darkrain at Pound 4? (and Pound 3 =D)

You are the type that says "Oh, I like to quickly discount your very good evidence, and act like mine is all that matters!"

I will admit that sometimes Falcon ***** ICs, but sometimes ICs **** Falcon and you need to stop denying it. Its even. Now lets move on.

I remember hearing that he got *****. Maybe I was wrong about that. I already said Darkrain was the outliers, all ICs beat him even though they'll get ***** by other Falcons. Some ICs beat Falcons, but the ratio isn't even. A lot more Falcons are beating ICs than vice versa. I think it's at least 60/40 in Falcon's favor.

Edit: I forgot to mention that recently Forward also beat pretty badly Wobbles with Falcon(his tertiary) and yet Wobbles goes even with Forward's spacies o_0

@Teh Icy: I main Shiek/Peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

MLG chicago winners finals ken went ganon and chu went YL the whole set (which chu's YL won ... hint hint). Grand finals ken ***** him marth vs ICs.

 

[giuocob]

Edit: I forgot to mention that recently Forward also beat pretty badly Wobbles with Falcon(his tertiary) and yet Wobbles goes even with Forward's spacies o_0

Here we go again with the 'character X beat character Y once in a tourney, character X must have an advantage!' Fly has beaten Scar and Silentspectre, I guess that means Forward's Falcon is better than either of them, right?

 

[Divinokage]

Fox and PEach, I can understand.

But Ganon, no. The matchup sucks yes, but Ganon has much more of a.....rhythm, I guess than Marth and it's alot easier to disrupt said rhythm than it is to disrupt MArth's. Yes, Ganon is alot safer on shield but the point of the matchup is to NOT get locked up in your shield.

Good luck with that, you make it seem like Ganon cannot chase ICs at all lolz.

 

[Nintendude]

Woah, OMG I can't believe I read that!!! Dude Chu's record with Ken is like 16-2 with in Ken's favor(And I'm not exaggerating) Ken pretty much always beat him on any stage that wasn't FD. It got to the point where Chu started picking Jigglypuff and Y-ling against Ken instead of ICs. Also when they were both in their prime M2k's marth usually got the better of Chu(something his Fox had a hard time doing)

This is a flawed argument because you are referring to the eras when Ken and m2k were the undisputed best players in the world. Regardless of what character their opposition is using, the best player in the world is supposed to win. Anything else would be an upset. Considering this, it is worth noting that Chu was one of the biggest threats to Ken and m2k in their prime. Unlike every other player except like KDJ, PC Chris, and Azen, Chu was the only player able to consistently take matches off of these guys.

m2k in his prime did not use Fox often, claiming it's because he's much more consistent with Marth. Consistency vs. ICs is one of the keys to beating them, because if you aren't consistent you get grabbed.

 

[TheManaLord]

*vomits a couple times*

This IC discussion is by far the worst that this topic has seen. The other characters were discussed much more efficiently and reasonably. This **** is just ridiculous. Mad fail IC mains.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Good luck with that, you make it seem like Ganon cannot chase ICs at all lolz.

Hey, I'm not saying that Ganon loses to IC. I'm saying that I don't think its as bad as PEach, Fox, or MArth.

Granted, it's been a long time since I've played against a good Ganon in tourney. Last time I played Ace, he beat me but we both have major tourney-nerve johns.

And shut up, TML. LOL

 

[giuocob]

It's not because of the IC mains that this discussions fails. It's because there are people who have never played ICs coming in here and spouting all kinds of crap about what they can/can't do, basically spreading lies that are confusing everybody and clogging the whole discussion up.