Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[NJzFinest]

I'm just saying, I remember reading that only wobbling and handoffs were legit. I guess I'll go look for the thread later.

Wobbles should post here. He knows like, every CG.

Nevertheless, if we decide the include wobbling (which we should), then none of this CG stuff matters and Falco is probably =.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Chu wasn't doing anything wrong, d-throw d-air is always escapable from sdi, although it can be difficult to time if the ICs mix up their timing, and risky because sdi'ing a smash is usually bad.

Falcon has to sdi upward (falco has to sdi down/away); it shouldn't matter if he does d-air or reverse d-air. Most falcons are really bad at escaping, but I do know one player who escapes every single time. It doesn't really matter though because ICs can d-throw cg falcon, or just cg him to a ledge and handoff.

Magus said you can also d-throw cg falco, but it's hard and impractical. D-throw f-smash regrab might ease the timing a little, but in any case I think a combination of d-throw d-air and d-throw f-smash regrab and d-throw f-smash is enough to mess up falco's di and kill him a good amount of the time, especially if you just watch the falco player's control or something.

 

[Roneblaster]

sdi up huh? ill have to remember that.

 

[Merkuri]

chu was doing it wrong then. smash di is a pretty simple concept, and I can get out of peefs CG's less and less every time we play.

I think it's far more likely that you are just wrong rather than Chu Dat messing it up. Chu Dat invented these chain grabs after all.

 

[Roneblaster]

which is harder to do

smash one stick one direction

or

press alot of buttons in a short period of time





there is only 1 correct answer

 

[NJzFinest]

People can be surprisingly bad or "unlucky" w/ Smash DI.

IC's down throw dair CG can be learned in minutes; and I've rarely seen even non IC mains mess it up. Either way, one guy is doing something he uses in almost any matchup.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Sheik's platform camping isn't bad against ICs, it's just not better than it is against any other character. ICs' u-air is amazing at controlling people above them, and they can cover the lower platforms easily with sh u-air and their fluid ground movement. Platform camping just reduces the probability that she'll get grabbed, so a platform camping Sheik might seem like she is doing better than one that isn't, but really she's just slowing down the match.

I would be really interested to see Amsah vs ICs though, because usually you deal with Sheik by getting under her with u-air or u-tilt, but Amsah seems really good at controlling horizontal space with f-air/b-air which are both also difficult for ICs to punish.

NJz: I wasn't saying shine isn't good in the match-up, I just don't see how it's justification for the match-up to be >>; it's not like we were ignoring its existence when we agreed on > before. Shine is usually cited as one of fox's major strengths in the match-up -- it separates whenever fox lands an aerial, gimps Nana really early near the ledge, and destroys their shield game -- but it's still a point-blank move, and Fox still has to work hard to outspace ICs, not get hit and lose most of his stock from that hit, before any of that happens.

 

[PEEF!]

Let me try to address some stuff...

Falcon and Falco getting out of CG's...I really don't know how to word this.

SDI'ing a move is not hard. Everyone can do it. Sometimes it just isn't enough. Of course the frames work out that falcon CAN escape if he does everything perfectly, but the fact of the matter is that nobody actually does it. Good ice climber mains with good grab games will lock a falcon down. As fly says, it is hard. Its not an "SDI one stop shop" like getting out of Fox uthrow uair. The SDI is the beginning. Lots of things have to happen right in order to get out. Plus the timing of the dair can be altered slightly as well.

Not to mention it doesn't matter because we can simply tell nana to do nothing, and your awesome perfect SDI up will be in vain and you will fall right back into popo's hands. This works to 160% (sopo dthrow regrab CG). Then it becomes an easy game of DI prediction that the ICs are used to playing far more than you are.

NJz, if Falcon does weird stuff and doesn't go the way you want him to when you dthrow dair, you are timing/spacing the dair wrong simple and plain. The % is irrelevant because dair has the same knockback at 1% and 999%. Like rene said, IC players will just choose wether they reverse dair or normal dair. I have never looked at where Falcon went and been like "what?!" since I learned this CG. Any "wrong way" mistakes are based purely on user error and you should know when it happens.

I should also say, waiting for a mistake and using it to get away is a decent idea. Every IC player makes them. Even wobbles.

EDIT: I just read your last post.

The reason why you are getting out of all these CGs is because you think that noobs can do them properly when they really can't. Lixivium, for example, is one of the 2 or 3 best IC players in the MW, and beats good people. My grab game is better than his by his own admission. He and I both mess up dthrow dair, and I can promise you that you know not a single "non-IC main" that can do chaingrabs better than either of us. What I'm saying is that to suggest that dthrow dair is so easy even non-IC mains never mess it up is very foolish, because even the most experienced and most techskilled IC mains mess it up often enough to acknowledge.

 

[Kyu Puff]

NJz, if Falcon does weird stuff and doesn't go the way you want him to when you dthrow dair, you are timing/spacing the dair wrong simple and plain. The % is irrelevant because dair has the same knockback at 1% and 999%. Like rene said, IC players will just choose wether they reverse dair or normal dair. I have never looked at where Falcon went and been like "what?!" since I learned this CG. Any "wrong way" mistakes are based purely on user error.

I don't know if this is what he meant, but sometimes if Falcon players mash randomly they can get out of the cg in the weirdest ways. Sometimes they'll end up really far away or airdodge out. Once scar actually falcon kicked out of my cg...

 

[JPOBS]

I don't know if this is what he meant, but sometimes if Falcon players mash randomly they can get out of the cg in the weirdest ways. Sometimes they'll end up really far away or airdodge out. Once scar actually falcon kicked out of my cg...

yea but that doesnt really count. Falcon is so manly, he can falcon kick out of anything, including rest, wobble, and other falcon kicks.

but with great power, comes great responsibility. use it wisely.

 

[Nintendude]

I'd like to take that challenge.

Nintendude, I don't play Falcon, but would you like to do DK vs ICs at Apex? I mean, we did DK vs ICs in Brawl, might as well do it in the better game

i'll mm nintendude it's been a long time since we've played

Sure I'll MM all you guys. Kage I'd love to play your Ganon too, but not with any money on the line

I really do not think Zelda vs. ICs is around even. Zelda is not good enough to force ICs into tight situations and they can apply a lot of pressure with their usual tactics. Against the kick simply lightshield and create a neutral position again - problem solved. Eventually ICs can take advantage of a tiny opening with their ground speed and get something started by getting underneath her, and Zelda doesn't really have any answers to that except try to kick near the ground or smash. If shielded, kick and f-smash reset the position and d-smash gets her punished. Wavedash to jab can outspeed these options and lead to a grab which means significant damage.

The match plays similarly to Ganon vs. ICs except Zelda can't take advantage of her shield pressure, has much worse range, and is overall slower and more limited.

ICs > Zelda

 

[unknown522]

Ganon = YL

how?

getting CG'd and killed easily is a huge problem for YL. Also, being out-classed in terms of range. Ganon also takes forever to kill, because he never dies off the top.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

YL isn't outclassed in range by any means. Ganon has more range, thats a fact, but its not so much that YL can't handle it. YL has fast spammable projectiles, and ganon has slow startup of moves. Those two things give YL a lot of potential for openings.

As for killing, why is YL killing ganon off the top? nair gimps and dsmash all day.

 

[unknown522]

his projectiles are slow to set up. He can run away yeah, but the time he takes to pull out/throw his stuff is pretty slow.

Also, ganon can recover high and take a hit (DI up) in most cases.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

his projectiles are slow to set up. He can run away yeah, but the time he takes to pull out/throw his stuff is pretty slow.

Also, ganon can recover high and take a hit (DI up) in most cases.

Ganon's best method to chase a fleeing opponent is to dash forward shffl fair. The shffl fair takes 19 frames alone, and YL's running speed is much better than ganon's. Because of this, as long as YL has the space for it, he can dash backward into a reverse projectile.

Spoiler

Bomb

[U]Pull: 39[/U] [COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]39 frames for the pull animation[/SIZE][/COLOR]
Bomb duration (from end of pull): 277
(explodes on 278)
Explosion damage: 2, 5, 8
-------------------------------------
Boomerang

Throw: 45
Catch: 19

Catch animation can be interrupted by
jumping, shielding, or a B move.

[U]Boomerang comes out on 27[/U]
Boomerang lasts from 141 to 181
harder throw = longer lasting

Choosing angle: 27
-------------------------------------
Fire Arrow

Total (no charge): 38
Total (min full charge): 70

Starts charging/[U]earliest release: 14[/U]
Arrow lasts: 55 frames

Charge time to full: 32

Full charge arrow can be shot on 46

--Upon Release--
Total: 25
Shoots: right away

Arrow stays stuck in ground: 50

-------------------------------------

Jump: [U]airborne on frame 5[/U]

Air time: 51
Earliest FF: 26
FF air time: 41

SH air time: 31
Earliest FF: 16
SH FF air time: 21

2nd jump earliest FF: 22

YL's sh reverse arrow is 19 frames too, with better range overall and its a disjointed hitbox. Of course if ganon hits your arrow with the fair he will go straight through it, but if that happens you were too close when you arrowed and should have kept running/shield/roll instead.

YL also has a very strong shield game against ganon, being able to punish any spaced ground move, though his weaker side is definitely the front. YL's bair out of shield is incredible, taking 10 frames including the jump in a move that covers him entirely with decent priority and range. If you don't fast fall you gain approx. 50% more distance and gain 3 frames extra hitbox but are 3 frames slower.

Spoiler

N-Air

SAF: 36
Total: 39
Hit: 4-27
Auto cancel: <3 32>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

--Initial hit--
Shield stun: 13
Shield hit lag: 6
Advantage: 0

--Sex Kick--
Shield stun: 9
Shield hit lag: 4
-------------------------------------
U-Air

SAF: 60
Total: 69
Hit: 5-49
Auto cancel: <4 56>
LAndlag: 30
Lcanceled: 15
-------------------------------------
B-Air

SAF: 30
Total: 39
Hit: 6-9, 18-23
Auto cancel: 29>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

--1st hit--
Shield stun: 9
Shield hit lag: 4
Advantage: -2

--2nd hit--
Shield stun: 9
Shield hit lag: 4
Advantage: -2

-------------------------------------

Jump: airborne on frame 5

Air time: 51
Earliest FF: 26
FF air time: 41

SH air time: 31
Earliest FF: 16
SH FF air time: 21

2nd jump earliest FF: 22

The real magic comes in the nair.

In case my pixel writing was too small, the numbers are 110 x 64 (127.26) and 93 x 60 (110.68).

YL's nair is 2 frames faster than link's. YL's nair hitboxes are only 1 pixel smaller than Link's. Given these numbers, Link's nair has a total range ~16 pixels longer, or ~15% but YL's body is significantly smaller making for additional body coverage and more priority*. The speed, priority and range of this move gives YL many opportunities to interrupt ganon starting aerials as well as out prioritize all of ganon's recovery moves. This move is all purpose and has better knockback thank Link's.

Right now I can't get any frame data on YL's dsmash because both of my dolphins are broken for some reason. All i can do is assert to you that the knockback and angle are ideal for killing ganon.

*Priority - In aerials, the distance from edge of hurtbox to edge of hitbox




I believe the match-up favors ganon in a realistic sense, but not enough to constitute a >. In numbers i'm not sure i would even make it 45:55. In terms of individual stage advantage, Ganon only has 2 good stages - YS and FoD - battlefield is pretty even or slightly favoring ganon and the rest of the stages favor YL. For a best of 3 set, its exactly even or slightly favoring ganon assuming you get 1 ban and the first stage will be BF (YL strikes YS/FoD, ganon strikes DL/FD) then each player will get a chance to win on BF then 1 favorable stage.

 

[Magus420]

YL's nair is 3 frames faster than link's.

Pretty sure they're exactly the same.

 

[NJzFinest]

how?

getting CG'd and killed easily is a huge problem for YL. Also, being out-classed in terms of range. Ganon also takes forever to kill, because he never dies off the top.

LOL @ Ganon grabbing YLink.
Yes, he's definitely light and out-classed by range, but YLink easily outclasses him in speed and just keeps throwing stuff at him. It's like a bad version of Falco haha (Falco can die at low percents but can camp forever).
He doesn't need to kill Ganon off the top, simply just get him off the stage, which is going to happen.

his projectiles are slow to set up. He can run away yeah, but the time he takes to pull out/throw his stuff is pretty slow.

Huh, pulling out bombs and arrows really isn't that slow. Nevertheless, YLink is fortunate enough to be able to do these 3 moves while moving. Combine that with his above average mobility....
If you think YLink's projectiles are slow, then I don't what to know what you think about Doc, Samus, ICs, Pika (lol), and Sheik's grounded needles. Those are all slower.

Also, ganon can recover high and take a hit (DI up) in most cases.

And will get repeatively hit until he's gimped lol. YLink is pretty good at edgeguarding.

 

[Charlesz]

And this ''advantage'' is simply too weak for the match-up to be even. Down air to down throw is SDIable in today's metagame, and the Down throw to F-smash isn't a threat at lower percents. Therefore at the top level chain grabbing either character(this chart assumes both characters know the match-up) isn't an option until they're at high percents. And on Falcon ICs grab game sucks. The only valid grab option Ics have are to wave dash in and shield grab, Falcon can just spam retreating aerials and grabbing him becomes near impossible, because each shield hit pushes ICs shield away. Not to mention that after any hit Falcon can quickly change from defending to attacking.

And again Falcon's nair, Fair and Forward B walks over ICs because they can't punish it. Really go watch Azen vs Chu Dat, Silent Spectre vs Wobbles or Mango vs Fly Aminita to get an idea of how the match up is played at top level. Ics get *****. To say the match up is = is an insult to the chart.

quit life.

 

[NJzFinest]

Naw he rite

 

[Merkuri]

quit life.

I was going to leave this argument alone because I couldn't bother with another Luigi vs Ganondorf argument, but ignorance like this urges me to keep the debate. Exactly where you do you think I'm wrong(other than the exaggerated lack of grabs ICs have on Falcon?)

@Fly Aminita: Azen knowing Chu is irrelevant a Chu Dat also knows Azen inside out. Therefore Azen's knowledge of Chu cannot be used an an explanation as to why his Falcon was ****ing up Chu's ICs so much.
You say Wobbles was playing awfully at that tournament and yet he got 4th place out of 128!! You realize that happens to be his best placing at a major tournament to date right? Wobbles was playing great that that tournament, Silent Spectre ****ed him up because of the sick advantages his Falcon has on ICs.
You say mango's Falcon ****ed up your ICs because he's a million times better than you. And yet at that same tournament didn't your ICs beat his Falco? It seems to me your just making up random explnations as to why all the best ICs are getting ***** by Falcon. Also didn't Silent Spectre destroy you at Nice Shot Hugo?

 

[NJzFinest]

If Azen vs Chu doesn't "count", then how about M2K vs Chu? :o

 

[Kyu Puff]

I was going to leave this argument alone because I couldn't bother with another Luigi vs Ganondorf argument, but ignorance like this urges me to keep the debate. Exactly where you do you think I'm wrong(other than the exaggerated lack of grabs ICs have on Falcon?)

I didn't respond to your post before because I couldn't tell if you were trolling or if you really just had no idea what you were talking about. Fly already rebutted every single point so I'll only cover this:

And this ''advantage'' is simply too weak for the match-up to be even. Down air to down throw is SDIable in today's metagame, and the Down throw to F-smash isn't a threat at lower percents. Therefore at the top level chain grabbing either character(this chart assumes both characters know the match-up) isn't an option until they're at high percents. And on Falcon ICs grab game sucks.

By d-throw f-smash cg, I wasn't talking about d-throw to f-smash, I was talking about d-throw f-smash regrab during hitlag; it's a threat at any percentage Falcon that can't escape the d-throw cg. ICs grab game is amazing against Falcon, but we already went over this a lot in the last couple pages.

Azen and Chu knew each other inside out, but Azen outplayed him. Think about people you play with regularly; when you know each other's playstyles so well the match-ups are less relevant than who is playing better at the moment. Going into the second game, Wobbles was clearly in a terrible mindset. He may have not been playing badly the entire tournament, but in that set he raged and threw his controller and when that happens you've typically already lost.

And why are you speculating the match-up based on matches you've seen if you've never even played it yourself? Fly actually experienced those sets and knows the match-up at a high level... but that doesn't matter because Merkuri watched the matches on youtube and now the truth is revealed?

 

[Merkuri]

If Azen vs Chu doesn't "count", then how about M2K vs Chu? :o

Umm I never mentioned M2K VS Chu. But if we're thinking of the same set then it wasn't ****, if I remember correctly M2k's Falcon brought brought Chu's ICSs to the 5th match. And back then I don't think I need to explain that Chu was obviously better with his main that M2k was with his tertiary, moreover M2k's Falcon beat Chu's ICs at a tournament around the same time as that tourney(we're thinking of the Smashtailty tournament right?)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pretty sure they're exactly the same.

Doesn't Link's jump take longer or something?

 

[Merkuri]

By d-throw f-smash cg, I wasn't talking about d-throw to f-smash, I was talking about d-throw f-smash regrab during hitlag; it's a threat at any percentage Falcon that can't escape the d-throw cg. ICs grab game is amazing against Falcon, but we already went over this a lot in the last couple pages.

I'd like for you to cite me a single match where an ICs player does that D-throw F-smash regrab chain grab consistently. I'm pretty sure you can't. And if that's the case then it's just theory and it's not a part of today's metagame because no one is able to apply it reliably during an actually match.

Azen and Chu knew each other inside out, but Azen outplayed him. Think about people you play with regularly; when you know each other's playstyles so well the match-ups are less relevant than who is playing better at the moment.

You make it sound as if it is a single set. Azen's Falcon ***** Chu at both sets at MLG Orlando(or whichever MLG it was) he again ***** him at Viva la Smashtaclysm Grand Finals, he ***** him again at Pound 3 and a bunch of times I can't remember/don't know about. Azen wasn't playing better that day, if he keeps ******(******, not just beating) him then it's likely because he's better than him(tournament placings say otherwise) or it's a difficult match-up.

Going into the second game, Wobbles was clearly in a terrible mindset. He may have not been playing badly the entire tournament, but in that set he raged and threw his controller and when that happens you've typically already lost.

Wobbles did that sort of thing a lot back then. He did the same thing against Zhu earlier in the tournament. But''Clearly in a bad mind set''? Where do you get this ridiculous conclusion from? Was he 'clearly'' in a bad mind set because of some evidence you have or because it supports your argument? Wobbles didn't rage quit until after the Falcon start running around spamming aerials and there is nothing his character can do about it. Wobbles didn't rage quit until after SS started running from one end of the stage to the other while spamming knees in the process(something I've already said ***** Ice Climbers)

And why are you speculating the match-up based on matches you've seen if you've never even played it yourself? Fly actually experienced those sets and knows the match-up at a high level... but that doesn't matter because Merkuri watched the matches on youtube and now the truth is revealed?

And I'm saying Fly Aminita is like Mango or Mew2king. Despite the fact that they know the match up so well not everyone takes them seriously because of the ridiculous statements they made. Did you see his response he made to the matches I cited? Azen ***** Chu because he knows him inside out? WTF? Right because when two people play each other all the time learning your opponent is a one -way process and one persons learn everything about his opponent while the other is left baffle and dumb-founded as to his opponent's playstyle. C'mon that's ridiculous.

 

[TheManaLord]

Azen didn't go falcon for no reason. the matchup is just better. falcon ics is at least what marth v ics is if not any better.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falcon vs ICs is even.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'd like for you to cite me a single match where an ICs player does that D-throw F-smash regrab chain grab consistently. I'm pretty sure you can't. And if that's the case then it's just theory and it's not a part of today's metagame because no one is able to apply it reliably during an actually match.

Well it was discovered relatively recently, and the only people who use it (as far as I know) are me and Fly. The matches that show him using it are usually against Fox, but Fox can escape by di'ing away. Falcon can't escape it. And if it is just theory because it's not widely used yet, then so is sdi'ing out of the cg because the only player I know who can escape it consistently doesn't even play Falcon (and the only other Falcon who can escape a reasonable amount of the time is m2k).

Wobbles did that sort of thing a lot back then. He did the same thing against Zhu earlier in the tournament. But''Clearly in a bad mind set''? Where do you get this ridiculous conclusion from? Was he 'clearly'' in a bad mind set because of some evidence you have or because it supports your argument? Wobbles didn't rage quit until after the Falcon start running around spamming aerials and there is nothing his character can do about it. Wobbles didn't rage quit until after SS started running from one end of the stage to the other while spamming knees in the process(something I've already said ***** Ice Climbers)

You're right, flipping out doesn't indicate a bad mindset at all. I'm sure it had no impact on how Wobbles was playing. It's more likely his ragequit was a conscious and rational decision based on the fact that there is no way to beat a Falcon spamming knees and that it he was unfavored in the match-up, it probably had nothing to do with him being pissed off.

And I'm saying Fly Aminita is like Mango or Mew2king. Despite the fact that they know the match up so well not everyone takes them seriously because of the ridiculous statements they made. Did you see his response he made to the matches I cited? Azen ***** Chu because he knows him inside out? WTF? Right because when two people play each other all the time learning your opponent is a one -way process and one persons learn everything about his opponent while the other is left baffle and dumb-founded as to his opponent's playstyle. C'mon that's ridiculous.

No, because from what I've heard Fly actually does really well against the Falcon players in CA. Mango is different because he what he says usually isn't serious and m2k is different because his opinions change every time he loses to a different character. Maybe you could correct him if you actually knew the match-up, but you don't, you think Falcon spamming retreating aerials is a legitimate strategy and that ICs grab game sucks, you've obviously never played the match-up, so you're not in any position to correct him, or m2k, or mango.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'd like for you to cite me a single match where an ICs player does that D-throw F-smash regrab chain grab consistently. I'm pretty sure you can't. And if that's the case then it's just theory and it's not a part of today's metagame because no one is able to apply it reliably during an actually match.

I can do it at will. It's not hard.

 

[Mahone]

I can do it at will. It's not hard.

It's true. I've seen it!

 

[ChivalRuse]

You saw me doing that, too? I thought everyone just saw me doing the ledge chaingrab. Lol.

 

[PEEF!]

Well it was discovered relatively recently, and the only people who use it (as far as I know) are me and Fly.

HEY!

I do eet.

It does about 25-30 damage fresh, 35-40 with headbutt>blizzard>headbutt which should be automatic, making it a quicker damage racker than dthrow dair which is about 15-20 damage and 25-30 with the blizzard.

 

[Nintendude]

I'd like for you to cite me a single match where an ICs player does that D-throw F-smash regrab chain grab consistently. I'm pretty sure you can't. And if that's the case then it's just theory and it's not a part of today's metagame because no one is able to apply it reliably during an actually match.

Just wait until Apex. I'm gonna **** people with it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Pretty sure they're exactly the same.

I meant when you add in jump times, and i was wrong it was only 2 frames.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay. So I think we've made it clear that the fsmash regrab chaingrab is reliable.

I went back and saw this post:

I really do not think Zelda vs. ICs is around even. Zelda is not good enough to force ICs into tight situations and they can apply a lot of pressure with their usual tactics. Against the kick simply lightshield and create a neutral position again - problem solved. Eventually ICs can take advantage of a tiny opening with their ground speed and get something started by getting underneath her, and Zelda doesn't really have any answers to that except try to kick near the ground or smash. If shielded, kick and f-smash reset the position and d-smash gets her punished. Wavedash to jab can outspeed these options and lead to a grab which means significant damage.

The match plays similarly to Ganon vs. ICs except Zelda can't take advantage of her shield pressure, has much worse range, and is overall slower and more limited.

ICs > Zelda

Agree.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco and Sheik both beat IC's, not sure if its enough to warrant an advantage on this stupid chart though.

 

[PEEF!]

Neither Falco or Sheik > ICs. Closer to < on both of them.

 

[TheManaLord]

zelda = ic
falcon > ic

 

[t3h Icy]

ICs = Falco
ICs > G&W
ICs > Mario
ICs = Puff

Falcon = ICs?
Ganon >> ICs?
ICs > Sheik?
Zelda = ICs?

(Others that weren't discussed much yet)
DK > ICs
ICs > Mewtwo
ICs >> Roy
Link = ICs
Luigi > ICs
YLink > ICs

I've never played an Ice Climbers player at all, let alone a good one, but I'd imagine it'd be an even match for Jigglypuff and Sheik.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why are you ignoring everything about YL vs Ganon? Lots of people have made good points to why its even.