Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[*P*L*U*R*]

There's no such thing as priority among aerials. just saying.

 

[JPOBS]

Falcon's spaced Nair trumps a whole lot of stuff.

JPOBS, Falcons chuck Nair out at literally everything all the time. Often even when there isn't anything even there. It often beats stuff when the opposing hitbox is still out, especially near the toes and slightly below it (or above it, if you're looking at the second hit). Its hitbox is fine.

true, the range on those bad boys is pretty good

 

[john!]

The reason for Peach > IC's was primarily because of Fox > IC's. As bad as Peach's gimps and separation are, Fox's shine is even worse. I think now that Foxes learn to SDI out of chaingrabs, and ICs learn to handoff grab Peach (inescapable unlike the chaingrab), Fox is emerging as the definite worst matchup for the Icies. I might go back and read that discussion again because I can't imagine Peach actually being able to shut down such a mobile character better than Fox can. Then again I'm just beginning to pick up IC's as a secondary so I may change my mind soon enough...

I think > Doc and < Falcon are agreed upon though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Peach should >> Ice Climber because they can't do much to her float cancel aerials and the only punishable move she needs to do against them is her D-smash, but she can just do float aerials over and over until their shield is small enough for the D-smash to be a guaranteed shield pierce, or she can just combo into it, or hit Popo away and then **** Nana with it.

FC moves are the best Nana killing tools in the game IMHO except MAYBE Ganon moves. They're also extremely safe and many hit both sides of her, and lead into jabs and grabs quickly, so she can defend herself from Popo extremely easily. She can also go offstage with it really easily and not worry about coming back against single Climber because of her great recovery.

@ PLUR I know aerial priority doesn't exist as it is just hitbox overlapping at that point (which favours Falcon often because of his range and mobility allow him to aim his moves more conveniently than his opponents and "beat" their moves) but priority is mostly a generally accepted term for move vs move interaction. It's bothersome to say "Marth aerials will overlap Falcon's body before Falcon's moves overlap Marth's moves and therefore Falcon will be hit out of his move first".

 

[Kyu Puff]

The reason for Peach > IC's was primarily because of Fox > IC's. As bad as Peach's gimps and separation are, Fox's shine is even worse. I think now that Foxes learn to SDI out of chaingrabs, and ICs learn to handoff grab Peach (inescapable unlike the chaingrab), Fox is emerging as the definite worst matchup for the Icies. I might go back and read that discussion again because I can't imagine Peach actually being able to shut down such a mobile character better than Fox can. Then again I'm just beginning to pick up IC's as a secondary so I may change my mind soon enough...

I think > Doc and < Falcon are agreed upon though.

Fox has never needed sdi to escape IC chaingrabs. Now I think he has a harder time escaping though, because of new grab mix-ups like d-throw f-smash which make him think twice before di'ing away. I don't think the two match-ups are remotely comparable in any case; you're comparing a single, point blank move to an entire arsenal of Nana-separating, unpunishable bs. I think KK's comparison to Ganondorf's aerials is more applicable.

 

[Merkuri]

nah. jiggs' (falling) upair and uptilt are beaten by peach's crouch cancel + dsmash. and peaches like spamming that, too, so it's hard even to surprise them with up-hitting moves. you can kind of jump behind them and uptilt against their shield, and catch them out of their jump, but that requires peach to make like three mistakes in a row =P

Well this only works if Peach is constantly crouching. Which isn't an option because once Jigs realizes this all she needs to do is weaves in and out with bairs, hitting peach but at the same time not being susceptible to the down smash or any of Peach's responses. Repetitive crouch canceling isn't an option against Jigs(it typically isn't an option against any character)

The reason for Peach > IC's was primarily because of Fox > IC's. As bad as Peach's gimps and separation are, Fox's shine is even worse. I think now that Foxes learn to SDI out of chaingrabs, and ICs learn to handoff grab Peach (inescapable unlike the chaingrab), Fox is emerging as the definite worst matchup for the Icies. I might go back and read that discussion again because I can't imagine Peach actually being able to shut down such a mobile character better than Fox can. Then again I'm just beginning to pick up IC's as a secondary so I may change my mind soon enough...

I think > Doc and < Falcon are agreed upon though.

Fox isn't a worst match up for ICs than Peach for the simple fact that ICs can combo the **** out of Fox while they can't do the same for Peach. Fox's falling speed makes his combo bait while Peach's falling speed makes her almost uncombo-able. Their both terrible matches But I think Peach is a bit worse or there even(Fox sure as hell isn't a way harder match up)

 

[unknown522]

Isn't it kind of a big deal whether it's Mario or Doc? Doc at least has fair, how is Mario KOing peach?

I don't know the matchup at all so I'm asking. I guess Mario can try to land fsmash, but is there a reliable way for him to do that?

his range on his f-smash is really good for kills. Also u-smash is good.

 

[idea]

Well this only works if Peach is constantly crouching. Which isn't an option because once Jigs realizes this all she needs to do is weaves in and out with bairs, hitting peach but at the same time not being susceptible to the down smash or any of Peach's responses. Repetitive crouch canceling isn't an option against Jigs(it typically isn't an option against any character)

not constantly...you can crouch cancel things after the move has started. jiggs' uptilt and falling upair are both slow enough that peach can see them coming and crouch, or crouch as she's getting hit. and my extra point was that she might be crouching for no reason because she's peach and why not. (the same mentality works pretty well with jiggs =P)

also wut <_< crouch canceling is good in a lot of important matchups.

 

[Rappster]

yeah, i will nair at any given time. maing Falcon is kind of like having turrets. you just can't controll your self and have to constantly be nairing at absolutely nothing and everything

i hate to grammar nazi, but this really bugged me.
turrets =/= tourettes.

 

[Kason Birdman]

LOL turrets.

yeah i knew it was spelt wrong, i was just being a lazy ****

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox has never needed sdi to escape IC chaingrabs. Now I think he has a harder time escaping though, because of new grab mix-ups like d-throw f-smash which make him think twice before di'ing away. I don't think the two match-ups are remotely comparable in any case; you're comparing a single, point blank move to an entire arsenal of Nana-separating, unpunishable bs. I think KK's comparison to Ganondorf's aerials is more applicable.

Worth noting is that her FC aerials basically combo Nana across the stage to death because Nana doesn't tech. And her Fair forces tumble at stupidly low percent so it really doesn't take much for her to put Nana in a position where she can't even be helped by Up+B or Side+B.

 

[john!]

Okay I'll concede if everyone thinks it's that bad.

Also I thought the guy was talking about actual turrets, lol...

 

[x After Dawn x]

Repetitive crouch canceling isn't an option against Jigs(it typically isn't an option against any character)

what? since when?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Turrets

pewpewpewpew

 

[ChivalRuse]

Peach > Ice Climbers

No. It's about 70-30. Peach >> Ice Climbers.

Possibly IC's worst matchup

It is. Peach and Marth are by far IC's' worst match-up.

but I don't think it's quite that bad for IC's if they know how to play the matchup, being very evasive and spacing aerials instead of trying for a grab.

It's pretty bad. Sure, you have to be evasive, but it's not like that's super effective. Peach has a lot of safe moves she can throw at you, which aren't as easy to avoid as you might think. Turnips, FC'ed fairs, and floated dairs above your shield are literally all she needs to do ... and it works. You have no idea how hard it is to punish these moves. Sure, you can catch her turnips. But this doesn't really get you anywhere. It just turns the match into a campfest that Peach has the advantage in anyway. Even her dsmash is hard to punish if it hits your shield. 50% of the time, it'll shield stab Popo. 20% of the time, your wavedash out punish will get side stepped. 10% of the time, you'll misjudge the shield stun and fail to wavedash oos at all. Even when you grab Peach, assuming it's not by the ledge, you get 40% max on her with something like headbutt -> blizzard -> headbutt -> dthrow -> upsmash. If she hits you with a dsmash by the ledge, Nana almost always dies, because it turns her around so she can't jump back and grab the ledge. Even if she could, Peach usually can edgeguard Nana and completely ignore Popo, because he lacks the ability to punish Peach heavily without Nana. Peach's fthrow becomes a reliable KO on Nana when her resistance meter gets up there. Peach can edgeguard Popo perfectly once he's far enough off the stage. Fairs, nairs, bairs, uairs, charged upsmash all get the job done. Good luck edgeguarding Peach ...

Yea, Ice Climbers are kind of underused. But people suddenly playing them isn't going to make the match-up any easier.

 

[Niko45]

Eh...I still don't find Marth vs ICs to be quite that lopsided but I guess that's just me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wobbles will tell you. It's IC's' second worst match-up.

 

[Niko45]

Wobbles will tell you. It's IC's' second worst match-up.

Nice Edit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Thank you.

 

[TheManaLord]

I think peach marth and fox all >> climbers

in that order. With peah at the extreme of >> marth in the mid and fox at the lowest end

 

[ChivalRuse]

That's basically where I stand on the matter.

 

[Niko45]

Fly and Kyu Puff both said Marth > ICs some pages back.

 

[ChivalRuse]

65-35 doesn't warrant >> but is still a significant advantage. Peach-IC's being 70-30 and >>, Marth is not much easier.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I support ICs << Peach. I also think ICs do fine against Fox/Marth, although I don't see why we're talking about that now.

 

[Merkuri]

not constantly...you can crouch cancel things after the move has started. jiggs' uptilt and falling upair are both slow enough that peach can see them coming and crouch, or crouch as she's getting hit. and my extra point was that she might be crouching for no reason because she's peach and why not. (the same mentality works pretty well with jiggs =P)

also wut <_< crouch canceling is good in a lot of important matchups.

Does anyone else thinks this is complete BS. You can react to an uptilt? The move comes out in like 3 or 4 frames. It is beyond human capabilities to react within a 4 frame window, and even if it were possible it sure as hell couldn't be done constantly to make Peach any safer from a rest. As for your other point even if Peach is just by chance CCing every other uptlit(which is unlike) then it still means she is being rested on every other uptilt, and that's ****.

Peach Crouch canceling is only good at the intermediate level or if your opponent isn't expecting it. If Peach intends to keep CCing then she'll get ***** once her opponent catches on.

what? since when?

Are you serious? Do you watch top pros play? If you keep crouch canceling over and over again you're going to get ***** because your opponent is going to throw out moves to punish your crouch canceling. it's the reason why you only see occasional crouch cancels among the best players.

 

[TheManaLord]

empty jiggs short hop to behind your char/shield = possible uptilt setup = start CCing

 

[idea]

Does anyone else thinks this is complete BS. You can react to an uptilt? The move comes out in like 3 or 4 frames. It is beyond human capabilities to react within a 4 frame window, and even if it were possible it sure as hell couldn't be done constantly to make Peach any safer from a rest. As for your other point even if Peach is just by chance CCing every other uptlit(which is unlike) then it still means she is being rested on every other uptilt, and that's ****.

Peach Crouch canceling is only good at the intermediate level or if your opponent isn't expecting it. If Peach intends to keep CCing then she'll get ***** once her opponent catches on.

by "keep crouch canceling" i/we don't mean to hold down the entire match and not move...we mean run and jump around, do stuff normally, and then crouch cancel when you're on the defensive and not shielding. a lot of the time it's worse for you to be hit by moves when you're not crouching, than when you are, because you go flying and *can be combo'd... instead of being able to react faster than the opponent can to do more moves (often more lag for them than you after they hit you).

so...peach would not be crouching in place. that would be pretty useless. what she would do is float around spacing fairs, pulling turnips, dodging puff's moves, and so on, and then when she IS about to get hit, that's when she crouches. or if the other character is moving vaguely toward her, and she doesn't feel like shielding. it's often harder to pressure a crouching character than a shielding one because they have more options and can move faster after the pressure against them has started. you can't downsmash out of shield, for instance. it's just a really versatile defensive option cause it gives you the advantage and/or a free move once the other player screws up their pressure or spacing. and some characters, like jiggs and peach, can use this more effectively than others for various reasons.

as for jumping behind shield + uptilting. let's say uptilt comes out in 3 or 4 frames. jigglypuff's jump takes frames too, and she has to float over there, and she has to land, before actually uptilting. i don't have the frame data for all of those but it's definitely a lot more than 3 or 4. for this setup to work, we have to assume that peach: 1. decides to not move at ALL for this whole period, 2. decides to jump once jiggs is already behind her, and 3. does not wait for the uptilt to hit her shield before moving. very situational.

besides, i just checked jigglypuff's frame data and her uptilt comes out on frame 8. the usable hitbox starts on frame 9 (frame 8 hitbox is small and directly below jiggs for some reason).

edit: lol wall of text

tl:dr; No.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I will have you know that the tiny hitbox is in fact relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBzJPGnZelo#t=41s

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

for the record sheik can in fact grab a crouching puff... throwing it out there for those that may not know

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not the initial duck. I'm aware that she can dash grab her shifty antsy animation after she's been ducking for a while, but the initial duck, which lasts long enough, is immune to such tomfoolery. Unless you're referring to needle grabs or something like that.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

nah the first bit

 

[ChivalRuse]

I also think ICs do fine against Fox/Marth

Most people would say Sheik does fine against Puff. Yet Amsah is adamant about that match-up being close to impossible. You just have to be so much better than your opponent to compensate for the conspicuous disadvantages you have. That's reason enough for me to bemoan the match-up.

 

[t3h Icy]

Does anyone else thinks this is complete BS. You can react to an uptilt? The move comes out in like 3 or 4 frames. It is beyond human capabilities to react within a 4 frame window, and even if it were possible it sure as hell couldn't be done constantly to make Peach any safer from a rest. As for your other point even if Peach is just by chance CCing every other uptlit(which is unlike) then it still means she is being rested on every other uptilt, and that's ****.

Jigglypuff's Utilt has a lot of starting lag, but she doesn't have animation when she does it, so if you're behind Jigglypuff and she's just standing there, that might signal you should Crouch Cancel.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Are you serious? Do you watch top pros play? If you keep crouch canceling over and over again you're going to get ***** because your opponent is going to throw out moves to punish your crouch canceling. it's the reason why you only see occasional crouch cancels among the best players.

obviously, but that's not what i'm understanding

i understood it as "don't crouch cancel too much cause it's not good", which isn't true as a general statement like that

also since when is fox >> ICs? i thought people were discussing that matchup to be even a while ago?

 

[Pi]

Samus vs Peach

Aww I wish these were recorded, would've really loved to see these more than anything.



Simply put, there are 2 leagues of Peach players, those who casually play Samus and can fall for your BS, and those who know the matchup and can **** you for free.

I personally think the matchup is is a *technical* 7-3 in Peach's favor. Her priority and attack speed nullifies 90% of the standard advantages you have. Her moves simply beat your moves.


A Peach that knows the matchup will-

-FC Nair/Jab your missiles.

-Nair your approaches and combo* instead of Fair

*basically anything that looks like it might be a combo she probably can spam Nair before you can follow up at higher percentages.

-Retreat Fair any attempt that looks like a Screw Attack bait.

-Follow up on her Turnips so you can't Nair them away.

-Dash attack only when you're not CCing or once you're in the air.

-Shield everything.

-Turtle once she has a significant life lead.


-Did I mention Float Cancel Nair?


The matchup is simply a war of attrition for Samus. The only real tools you have are- F-Tilt, Charge Shot and Screw Attack for reliable damage. Bair and Nair are the dark horse moves as they have windup but get a lot of benefits when they do connect.

Then Nair/Weak Nair, Fair, Jab, Missiles, Grapple* and Dash Attack for combo opportunities- all but Jab are unsafe.

*You can Grapple for free on blocked Dash Attacks and light Shielded Down Smashes


Lastly, you have Forward Smash, Down-Tilt and Up-Tilt aka "Moves That Look Safe But Really Aren't"

Pretty much all your attacks can be Float Cancel counterattacked, which leaves you at a horrible disadvantage, and % racks up quickly.


The best thing you can do against these type of Peach players are to frustrate them into attacking, and then profiting off their mistakes. Getting the lead in the 1st stock is an absolute imperative, because then you can just spam and play extremely defensive so you can rack up damage before you lose your stock. Once you have momentum you have to keep it for as long as possible.


Simply put, the matchup is ********.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Up Air is also very useful and one of the few moves that can beat much of Peach's attacks when she's above you- whether in the air on a platform. Passive/Descending Uairs are awesome and setup Screw Attack, Nair, Grabs, and Fair depending on their positioning.


Just beware of platform Down Smashes.

70-30 is a bit ridiculous, especially if you're talking about 2 players with equal knowledge on the matchup.

Idk, mango says it's one of my best matchups, unfortunately I don't get to test it out too much. I'd argue it's a perfectly even, 50/50 match up.

This might be taboo to do on this board, but I respectfully disagree. Although the 7-3 might be a bit hyperbolic (6-4 is probably more logical) the matchup is definitely not even IM*H*O.

Due to your prowess as a Samus player and in the matchup in general you might have a certain level of comfort, but as far as tools go, she can shut you down offensively and keep a lead far more easily- which, from a logical standpoint, gives her more leverage.

For example, the Jiggz vs Samus matchup is widely considered in Jigglypuff's favor, but I prefer it and do better job in handling Jigglypuff even though many Samus players have complained about it being very difficult (and it is). Notwithstanding my preferences, I recognize that without out-thinking my opponent there's really no way that an experienced Jiggz player can lose solely by technical means.

So in summation, technical advantages (ex: priority, speed, range) inherently gives one character an advantage even if the other player can outwit them.

Red sparrow: since when is it OK to omit the application of a character's tools when deciding a matchup ratio?

And techniques used to apply inferior tools? I mean, are we supposed to just look at things "on paper" and say "well peach has this and Samus has that, so peach wins"

Ex: the ability to outwit is not necessary when a missile, that can be FC naird by peach, is used as a means to close the distance.

You see, It's about the way samus's tools are applied, not how peach's tools are better, that makes this 50/50.

Yes, peach can apply her better tools as well, but Samus's inferior tools become equal to peach's when applied correctly. However, Peach's correctly applied tools will not become better than samus's correctly applied tools. That's what I'm saying. Make sense?

I would say it's in peach's favor
But not by much
I think samus peach is one of the gayest matchups in the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

nah the first bit

Can you prove this, demonstrate this, etc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

also since when is fox >> ICs? i thought people were discussing that matchup to be even a while ago?

No no no. We were saying Peach >> IC's. Marth > IC's (though close to >>) and Fox > IC's.

 

[Merkuri]

as for jumping behind shield + uptilting. let's say uptilt comes out in 3 or 4 frames. jigglypuff's jump takes frames too, and she has to float over there, and she has to land, before actually uptilting. i don't have the frame data for all of those but it's definitely a lot more than 3 or 4. for this setup to work, we have to assume that peach: 1. decides to not move at ALL for this whole period, 2. decides to jump once jiggs is already behind her, and 3. does not wait for the uptilt to hit her shield before moving. very situational.

besides, i just checked jigglypuff's frame data and her uptilt comes out on frame 8. the usable hitbox starts on frame 9 (frame 8 hitbox is small and directly below jiggs for some reason).

edit: lol wall of text

tl:dr; No.

Ok, I get your crouch canceling point, which for the for the most part is true. However you seem to be under the impression that Peach has to be in the air for Jigs to uptilt rest her, she doesn't Jigs can uptlilt rest Peach on the ground just like she can to Marth, Ganon, etc.

Most people would say Sheik does fine against Puff. Yet Amsah is adamant about that match-up being close to impossible. You just have to be so much better than your opponent to compensate for the conspicuous disadvantages you have. That's reason enough for me to bemoan the match-up.

I don't think most people would say Sheik does find against Puff. A lot of people(Sheik mains in particular) believe it's a hard matchup for Sheik, and as a Sheik main myself I'd have to agree. Puff ***** Sheik. Also on youtube Amsah said that he just doesn't know the match-up. And next time he intends to beat Hungrybox with only Sheik.

 

[Niko45]

Most people would say Sheik does fine against Puff. Yet Amsah is adamant about that match-up being close to impossible. You just have to be so much better than your opponent to compensate for the conspicuous disadvantages you have. That's reason enough for me to bemoan the match-up.

This comparison proves the opposite of what you are saying.

For the sake of looking at the comparison I will just assume what you are saying about people thinking puff vs sheik is fine to be accurate. While it's not very clearly put what you mean, the gist seems to be "to the average spectator/non-expert it appears that puff vs sheik is fine, but if you ask an expert (amsah), he'll tell you that he's really working very hard to make it look like a decent fight and that the matchup is actually pretty bad."

So if we look at your disagreement with Fly by saying Marth vs ICs is very bad, and Fly Amanita saying it's "fine," I think it's safe to assume that you play the role of "most people/non-expert" and Fly Amanita plays the role of the expert. So then we get:

"Most people (Chivalruse) would say that Marth vs ICs is terrible for ICs, but if you talked to an expert (Fly) on the matchup, he'd tell you that most ICs kinda suck and run into hits a lot, and if you actually know what you're doing in the matchup it's not that bad."

So basically your response to an expert disagreeing with you on a matchup was an endorsement for expert opinion over average/commonly held opinion.

And just as a sidenote, it's pretty ****in rude to just tell somebody bluntly that they suck at a matchup for having an opinion on it. At least you edited that post, but wow, please don't be so disrespectful.

 

[TheManaLord]

Still, you're taking the 'expert' opinion of an above average player who doesn't have an 'expert' from the other side to even compete with.

Your analysis is one sided and not entirely credible.