Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Zephynazo]

The CF - Marth match-up is imo in Marth's favor slightly. Prolly around 55-45.

Marth ***** CF at the edge, it's terrible for CF. This is a huge factor in this match-up, and it's a critical one.

 

[Niko45]

That just means SS guessed wrong a lot.. or Falcomist is better at the Falcon matchup than SS is at the Marth matchup. Like I said earlier if Marth has his jump, then Falcon tries to Lightshield edgeguard, Marth can hit him to make Falcon go on the ledge or not and then Marth can have 2-3 ways to recover after that. (I'm wondering if it's possible to hit Falcon twice before he gets on the ledge after lightshielding) And pretty much Marth can guard himself on reaction if he has a jump... I mean if he sees Falcon going off stage then he can throw out a long range move to interrupt Falcon easily.

There are ways to bait Marth's jump, like for example, faking going off stage then going on stage immediately, then aerial or light shielding... it really depends how the Marth is recovering. It's tough sometimes.

but if Marth has his jump like ur saying and is in range to attack a lightshielding opponent, why doesn't he just DJ grab the ledge instead?

 

[TheManaLord]

Falcon shouldn't play with the ledge. It is better to recover as high as possible and takes hits/punishment.

 

[Divinokage]

Well he could I guess, but it can also be a mix up and then Falcon can also waveland onto the edge as well. It's not easy to edgeguard Marth.. What I said is not garanteed.. well at least nothing is garanteed unless you guess correctly.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Falcon shouldn't play with the ledge. It is better to recover as high as possible and takes hits/punishment.

If you are close enough aka hugging a wall it might be a bit safer. You can walltech up+B fairly reliably from that spot and the up + B will almost always hit them. Its hard to find a situation where it wont unless u got hit with a projectile or something.

But as we all know, that only works if they dont choose to grab the ledge for an easy stock.

 

[Hax]

"falcon vs marth isnt even fair" to quote m2k. marth's main approach (fair) is soo slow especially for falcon and it gets punished, so now we've established that marth has no projectile and no approach just like falcon; in this case it comes down to DD/mindgame ability where falcon clearly wins. falcon wins on combo ability too with marth being the perfect weight for falcon to combo; dthrow nair knee knee works at 0 and kills marth if he was close to the ledge when he got hit by it which is just stupid.. and of course any of falcons aerials lead into like 5 more so its just **** lol. marth's recovery is normally a bit better than falcon's but in this matchup the recoveries are even cause falcon has the best edgeguard on marth in the game.

anyone whos not winning this matchup 90% of the time isnt playing it right

 

[TheManaLord]

Yes, an advantage is there. But under implications of this chart (if the advantage were to be represented) it would put sheik and falcon having the same advantage over Marth. That's just not right.

The charts fundamental flaw is it's inaccurate representation. I've hated on it forever and only a few seemed to be on my side.

 

[Zephynazo]

"falcon vs marth isnt even fair" to quote m2k. marth's main approach (fair) is soo slow especially for falcon and it gets punished, so now we've established that marth has no projectile and no approach just like falcon; in this case it comes down to DD/mindgame ability where falcon clearly wins. falcon wins on combo ability too with marth being the perfect weight for falcon to combo; dthrow nair knee knee works at 0 and kills marth if he was close to the ledge when he got hit by it which is just stupid.. and of course any of falcons aerials lead into like 5 more so its just **** lol. marth's recovery is normally a bit better than falcon's but in this matchup the recoveries are even cause falcon has the best edgeguard on marth in the game.

anyone whos not winning this matchup 90% of the time isnt playing it right

Talk about confidence

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

l o l

 

[NJzFinest]

falcon has the best edgeguard on marth in the game.

Uhhh, Sheik? lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yes, an advantage is there. But under implications of this chart (if the advantage were to be represented) it would put sheik and falcon having the same advantage over Marth. That's just not right.

The charts fundamental flaw is it's inaccurate representation. I've hated on it forever and only a few seemed to be on my side.

I think that the ppl who are really thinking about what you are trying to advocate are on your side.

You just seem to think its easier to create a x/100 numerical chart with completely accurate values and matchup comparisons that are true and consistent all the way across the board.

 

[TheManaLord]

I don't think it's easy. It'd be hard as ****. It's just better to represent the matchups we can accurately quantify because of their frequency (top 8, possibly a few more past that)

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, but then we leave out the other characters.

Even tho, they arent good, played often, gonna win the tourney, I still see no reason to do an incomplete chart. That would in fact be worse due to the lack of information.

This chart being the most successful of the recent attempts, should be pretty accurate at a glance when it finished as long as people continue to listen and give/receive valid inputs of the masses while still being able to hold the opinions of top professionals or character experts, in higher regards.

Some matchups will be a little iffy, such as the falcon marth. But everyone seems to be within 45-55 to 55-45. It seems it would be equal, but taking Hax, m2k, scars(if im not mistaken) opinion concluding on slightly in falcons favor would be most appropriate.

It also seems like this chart is on an individual matchup basis, so Marth<sheik doesnt necessarily mean sheik<fox is the same difficulty. Lol idk if that even makes sense. Either way, they arent compared to other matchups not involving that character.

 

[t3h Icy]

We might do numbers after the "base" of the chart is all finished.

Anywho, I think we'll leave Falcon/Marth the way it is.

Falcon > Doc?
Falcon >> Link?
Jigglypuff > Marth?

Let's get these three done and move on to the next character.

 

[Roneblaster]

all those seem legit icy.

also, tml im with you on the chart 45-55 matchups being even is a bit frustrating.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ i agree. IMO 45-55 thru 40-60 is > but i guess its not by this chart.

Would it be possible to do a combined chart? like use >/>>/>>>/= for lower matchups and numbers for higher/common matchups?

 

[Roneblaster]

btw icy, even if we do ***** about the format every now and then, we still do love you for doin this for our lazy *****

 

[t3h Icy]

all those seem legit icy.

also, tml im with you on the chart 45-55 matchups being even is a bit frustrating.

I'd like Link to possibly be discussed more though since Skler is pretty bent on it being horrible for Link.

^ i agree. IMO 45-55 thru 40-60 is > but i guess its not by this chart.

Would it be possible to do a combined chart? like use >/>>/>>>/= for lower matchups and numbers for higher/common matchups?

I was thinking of this before, but it would be a bit rough to read, unless there was a cut-off point somewhere. Perhaps use numerical values for the Top and High tiers against each other and use the signs for everything else. Again, we'll decide on that later

btw icy, even if we do ***** about the format every now and then, we still do love you for doin this for our lazy *****

<3

 

[idea]

I was thinking of this before, but it would be a bit rough to read, unless there was a cut-off point somewhere. Perhaps use numerical values for the Top and High tiers against each other and use the signs for everything else. Again, we'll decide on that later

this would make sense. in the other matchup chart thread from a while ago, there were complaints that the low tier matchups were made too specific and couldn't be justified without more tournament use. but there were also complaints that a chart in the same format as this one wouldn't be specific enough for the better-understood top tiers. so a hybrid would make sense.

 

[TheManaLord]

I like the split idea as well. We definitely have enough information to distinguish, to a reasonable degree, 100-0 method matchups for the top 8 or even a couple more. Then the rest would be the vague > incremental disadvantage/advantage system.

 

[t3h Icy]

But, that'll be after. For now, let's finish up Falcon.

 

[Nintendude]

The thing with 55-45 matchups is they can easily become pretty much even or even the other way around depending on differing playstyles and stages. They may be really sight advantages in theory, and occasionally in practice, but even / the opposite occurs as well. That's what I think 55-45 really means, and hence the chart's way of handling it right now is good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think there are enough players of the characters to have numbers for mid tier and above. Its once you hit the young link vs donkey kong matchups where nobody really knows what the matchup is like and everyone basically guesses lol

 

[otg]

Young Link ****ing ***** DK. Not even joking.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I Dont particularly like the hybrid idea, but Im not against it.

I agree with Icy in that we should finish using the >/>>/>>> method first and then refining should be a bit easier.

@SVeet-in those matchups there is usually 1 dude who knows lol, but ppl dont necessarily agree. Where would the cutoff be, if im not mistaken it may lead directly into a tier list argument as well since most ppl feel the current one is outdated.

 

[Roneblaster]

falcon vs link is nice because link is so heavy we can do awesome **** to him, but falcon is so heavy that he can do cool **** to us too. We cant edgeguard him, we can both tech-chase the **** out of each other.

so link >>>>> Falcon

just kidding

idk Falcon >>> link seems silly to me Falcon is >> Link

 

[Divinokage]

If it was numbers then I would put Falcon-Marth, 55-45.. since Falcon has more larger stage choice than Marth. It really comes down to the size of the stage imo.

 

[unknown522]

Young Link ****ing ***** DK. Not even joking.

it's not that bad. I think YL has the advantage though. Also, his camping is incredibly gay to DK.

 

[otg]

Also, his camping is incredibly gay to DK.

That's the main reason it's horrible. DK can't do **** about it, he's too fat and his shield sucks. Typically he wants to be facing backwards when he approaches/does anything and everything Y.Link does turns him around. He really just can't do anything if Y.Link runs away the whole time and uses projectiles.

 

[unknown522]

DK has enough speed to catch him, despite being really fat. His combos are pretty brutal as well.

 

[otg]

I know DK is faster then he looks but does he actually outspeed Y.Link? Most of DK's combos are started via a grab and it's pretty **** hard for him to land grabs on Y.Link/in general on anyone competent. I ****ing hate this matchup personally, I think its like Y.Link >> DK.

 

[NJzFinest]

YLink doesn't **** DK, simply as the advantage overall.

YLink doesn't kill lol, he just runs and spams.

Luckily no one uses YLink. "Unluckily" people use Falco and other characters that matter and do way better.

Let's get the matchups vs real characters finished first lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

icy i say wait until monday at the earliest before we switch to the next character. Im sure theres atleast one more thing we can find to argue about

 

[unknown522]

IMO, falcon > peach. His combos are too sexy on her. He also kills her pretty easily.

 

[otg]

Let's get the matchups vs real characters finished first lol.

I agree, but I will say that Y.Link doesn't really have to worry about landing a KO, it's stupid easy vs. the fat monkey with no shield.

 

[Roneblaster]

Falcon is > Peach i dont think many people would argue it is >> but some might say = or <

 

[TheManaLord]

It's falcon > or = peach

I think it's 55-45. So even for this chart.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I agree with TML on falcon peach

 

[Diakonos]

i think what you meant to say TML is that every Canadian smasher is in the MBR, but the MBR isnt made up of %100 Canadian members.

I lol'd. Seriously, I have a Canadian passport, isn't that good enough? Srsly. Though I don't think I could be a broomer during school year.

Fun fact: there's a flavor of Snapple called Peach Mango. I partake of it frequently.

Haha yeah, I was talking about a drink that was Orange Peach Mango. I luld.

it's not that bad. I think YL has the advantage though. Also, his camping is incredibly gay to DK.

Come on the 15th, Unknown.




I think that you guys need to consider what you mean by advantages. Are you speaking on the levels of perfection? As in, the "ideal" match-up? How, if all was played perfectly, the match would work itself out? This needs to be distinguished from match-ups as played by us at the top level. This would be more of a practical thing-- and we could ask higher-level players their opinions, and tabulate their performance.

The same is true of the tier-list, really, and I'm not sure if the distinction has been made.

 

[TheManaLord]

@Diakonos

It's what's within the realm of possibility and applicability in the metagame.