Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[null55]

i like this guy

 

[xbombr]

The Mango has spoken. I demand that Falcon be made -4 against Sheik.

 

[TheManaLord]

lmao so ridiculous

i'ma mod my controller and be as good as mango

 

[Divinokage]

Well just like once Falcon knocksdown Fox, it should be super duper damage as well.

But with Fox it is easier to techchase Falcon then the other way around I'm sure.. and then the spacing battle is tough too. =P

 

[MaNg0]

ok whats easier


nairing a falcons shield and waiting for him 2 roll or hitting him then it leading 2 grabs which leads to combos that lead 2 easy as tek chases


as where falcon


has 2 have SICK reads which is like 193913 times harder then auto ****


sorry if everyones not as good as you kage to where we can

knock a fox down and do super damage

**** ******

 

[n1000]

so I guess we established that fox >> falcon in game but Falcon >>>> fox IRL cred because you're not playing a furry

 

[Divinokage]

I've seen enough as to where it's definitely not hopeless for Falcon. A >>> matchup is like Ganon/Roy.. into where Roy can absolutely barely do anything to Ganon in order to kill him or space himself somehow.

I think Falcon has enough tools to least space himself to counter some moves that Fox does. You can at least trade some hits and things like that. Falcon won't always get hit or have his shield hit either.

 

[john!]

I was drinking some tropical juice during breakfast the other day. I looked at the juice label and almost choked: Mango doesn't play Orange Peach!

Fun fact: there's a flavor of Snapple called Peach Mango. I partake of it frequently.

 

[KAOSTAR]

falcon>pika
falcon <sheik
falcon <<fox
falcon <<falco

this thread should be based on as equal skill as possible. but if the best sheik happens to be better than the best falcons we should try to use somebody closer in skill if its a better data pool such as the falcon mains. but for matchup proposes ss vs m2k is a good example of falcon sheik.

45-55 imo is ¥ [about equal]
I do feel marth has enough of an disadvantage to say marth < falcon.

most of the matchups in this range come down to stage and play style. (45-55) 56 and above are easy to say def slight advantage.

I think fox has more of an advantage than falco but falcon isn't limited to helplessness. you won't just get lucky and **** up dark rain, you have toknow what you are doing. its falcon s offense that keeps it from being -3. otherwise falcon would never best fox.

(im on my mobile, sorry if this post sucks. can't type as fast as im thinking)

 

[Scar]

As much as I trust Scar's opinion since he's an amazing Falcon, I think he's relating Sheik to other MU's too much. Sheiks will tell you that Foxes are harder than Falcon and Sheik isn't even with Fox so just relating match ups doesn't work.

If Sheik isn't as good against Falcon as Fox or Falco is, then there's nothing saying that Falcon's match up with Fox isn't 70-30 and Sheik's is 65-35, which would still fall under <<, imo.

Lacking an approach isn't match up defining when neither character has an approach. In theory, Falcon should never breach Sheik's defense because he doesn't have a move that does it, while Sheik has plenty of moves that go through Falcon's and the advantage of having a projectile. In practice this doesn't happen and everything you've said is true, but in theory (which is all this sort of MU chart really is) Sheik should not lose to Falcon.

didn't read much else but i appreciate this comment but also would like to say that falcons suck at this matchup in general, they are doing it wrong, and that doesn't change anything about the matchup just the general knowledge regarding it

also i'm a pretty strong believer in the idea that since so many people who have no idea what they're talking about say that sheik>>falcon, falcon players believe this and don't try to learn the match

sheik players know sheik v falcon bc it's the same as sheik v fox and falco except easier

falcon players don't know **** about sheik but when they do it's a clear but beatable advantage for sheik

60/40 take it from me not f-zero

 

[Roneblaster]

scar you are failing miserably at moving falcon down the tier list.

 

[Fletch]

I'm not disagreeing with anyone's opinions on Falcon's matchups since I suck horribly with him, but how does Falcon do so well at big national tournaments if all his matchups are horrible?

 

[Divinokage]

well a >>> to me is a ratio of like a player winning 80-90% of the time against someone else. I seriously doubt an equally skilled Fox vs Falcon can do that.

Good question Fletch. I guess they've fought a great deal more or have much more wisdom than other players imo. Maybe they are being underestimated? Dunno. =P

 

[Roneblaster]

because darkrain/ss/scar/hax aren't actually human. Theyre actually Spartans.

 

[Hax]

scar is bad and his opinion doesnt matter

to elaborate:

fox is -1.5 i feel like vs the average foxes this matchup is easier than falco but vs the amazing ones (jman, lucky) its -2.5 and harder than falco. so i dunno what you guys are going by but i suppose at current top fox play this becomes falcon's hardest matchup. as mango said whats easier nairing the sh*t out of falcons shield or a grab followed by ridiculous tech reads? this is why i despise people who say falcon is broken and tell me my combos are ****ing auto when im outskilling them. when i'm on fire i feel like i can never lose this matchup (i **** jman when i'm playing my best) but that isnt very often

falco is -2 because he can come in having a bad day and **** u with very little skill required. it is once again a case of automatic + broken combos vs reading + broken combos; the former is the clear winner. the advantage keeping this from being impossible is that falco has no grab; he has lasers which are disgusting but the lack of a grab keeps this winnable

jiggs is prolly -2 also although i'm thinking jiggs might go down as PP might have discovered how to play vs her in which case i am confident in -1. i kind of feel like shes gimmicky as hell and will only get worse whereas falcon can only get better so i predict that this will be -1 in the future. but for right now the way we're playing makes it so that a single throw from jiggs kills us. as falcon players we are pressured to entertain which is why we go for stupid sh*t like grab -> knee (imo NEVER grab vs a grounded jiggs especially while facing her) when the real way to play the matchup is to beat her with bairs and nairs into uair strings and kill her at 120 with a bair. knee is so risky in this matchup

sheik: -1 or -2 to the average falcon, +1 or +2 to me. this matchup is actually sooo easy now but i can understand why people would fuss over it. i hated it for a good while too. to clarify: her dthrow bullsh*t does not work all you have to do is roll your cstick and not tech and you'll break out... think of it in the sense that both chars have no approach but falcon is faster and has a better DD. and if the falcon stays under 100% edgeguarding her is cake. i beat amsah in pound pools and i jv3 stocked plank this weekend as proof

marth: +1 or +2 even though most people think its even. a single dthrow can mean his death and as long as u stay in the middle of the stage he barely has anything on you. DD camp and wait for him to whiff aerials then grab, his approach sucks and hes the easiest high tier to edgeguard in the game

peach: 0 imo, +1 or +2 to the average falcon. armada makes me say this cause till i played him i would **** peaches, but seriously both chars **** each other combo-wise but peach has a gay projectile and a godly recovery. falcon has slightly better combos so its def not a losing matchup for him, but he barely wins it.

 

[TheManaLord]

I know I'm not some breakthrough star. But I've played against professionals of the highest caliber in tournament (the only time I play people is at tournament). As a falcon main for like 6 years (mid mlg era) I've played a lot of top tiers and I can agree with the fact that the spacies falcons hardest matchup, both fox and falco can be equally devastating. I can also attest that most falcons truly don't know how to fight sheik or the good ways to break out of being techchased.

I like these:

Falco >> Falcon
Fox >> Falcon
Sheik > Falcon
Jiggs > Falcon
Marth = Falcon
Peach = Falcon
Falcon > Pika


edit: I really like Hax's input. IMO he is the falcon who will become the best. He utilizes bair so much better than other falcons it's really evident when watching him.

 

[Roneblaster]

hax = hbox?

(jk, i love both of you)

 

[x After Dawn x]

spacies only >> falcon in theory

it's not too bad in practice

 

[KAOSTAR]

spacies only >> falcon in theory

it's not too bad in practice

**** no.

its>>.

and as I said before hax and now after. fox is harder than falco

but not>>>

 

[Merkuri]

**** no.

its>>.

and as I said before hax and now after. fox is harder than falco

but not>>>

Am I mistaken or have you stated that in every match Fox is either does better or equal to Falco? I think you just have a bias towards Fox, and it's not just you; even if people believe that Falco beats fox in their match up, they still believe that in every other match up Fox does at least equal to Falco. It's ********. Falco does better than Fox against Falcon the because of the broken combos he has on him, and due to the fact that Falco has an easier time camping him because his lasers have hit stun(note in most match-ups Fox would be better at camping because he is faster than Falco, but this fact is rendered void since Falcon has greater mobility than Fox)

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

edit - im an idiot



actually, since i already posted here i might as well say that in my experience, fox is a little easier than falco for fighting falcon.

with falco I feel like i just cant run fast enough to avoid his stuff. and i dont like shooting him very much either, which migh be my problem.

 

[NJzFinest]

Guys... there should be a separate category for Taj's Mewtwo lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Agree.

10Tajistoogoods

 

[Pi]

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco
Taj's Mewtwo
Jigglypuff
Falcon
Peach
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Mario
Luigi
DK
Pikachu
Y.Link
Link
Mr.G&W
Zelda
Scar's Falcon
Mewtwo
Roy
Yoshi
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

fix'd
scar approve?

 

[NJzFinest]

lol @ Scar's Falcon


So Taj's Mewtwo should be like...

Fox: +1
Falco: +2
Marth: -1 (remembers him vs M2K)
CFalcon: 0
Puff/Peach: ?
Rest of the game: +4

 

[Scar]

scar is bad and his opinion doesnt matter

******

the real way to play the matchup is to beat her with bairs and nairs into uair strings and kill her at 120 with a bair

so true

hax you ******* you agreed w/ me on everything u prob didn't read my post

cocky *** east coast falcons...

 

[KAOSTAR]

Am I mistaken or have you stated that in every match Fox is either does better or equal to Falco? I think you just have a bias towards Fox, and it's not just you; even if people believe that Falco beats fox in their match up, they still believe that in every other match up Fox does at least equal to Falco. It's ********. Falco does better than Fox against Falcon the because of the broken combos he has on him, and due to the fact that Falco has an easier time camping him because his lasers have hit stun(note in most match-ups Fox would be better at camping because he is faster than Falco, but this fact is rendered void since Falcon has greater mobility than Fox)

I think that foxs combos are much worse in terms that they combo u directly off the stage. And he matches falcon in likes of quickness. He doesnt need to slow falcon down with lasers ^_^

falco just racks up damage quickly. When the percent gets a bit higher falco doesnt combo as well. But obviously each percent is closer to a kill.

So Id say you are mistaken. I meant specifically in the Captain Falcon matchup.

West Coast

 

[Animal]

good **** hax, i prefer to fight falco over fox but thats just me. Once you can semi deal with lasers its not bad. Fox

Hax MM next tourney my fox is getting effin naughty.

 

[Kira-]

I kinda feel like nobody should be saying anything unless ur a top pro who other top pros can vouch for. I know top pro is kinda vague but like average people really dont know anything to be honest

that having been said hax's post was almost spot on as far as i can tell, mango's posts should obviously mean a lot too even if he's not serious 100% of the time




I mean really, someone who can't beat anyone is trying to give matchup advice? if they did it right they would be beating people but they're not so don't listen to them lool

 

[TheManaLord]

Knowledge and application are two different things you silly tran.

 

[Divinokage]

I was about to say that TML. Think of some people like critics or something.

 

[t3h Icy]

Falcon > Ganondorf
Marth > Falcon
Fox >> Falcon
Falco >> Falcon

Falcon > Doc?
Falcon >> Link?
Falcon >> Pichu?
Jigglypuff > Marth?

Any Falcon players with match-up experience against a good Pichu or vice versa? Link as well. Here's Skler's opinion from awhile back:

Link vs Falcon:
Link vs Falcon is completely stupid. Falcon's nair is amazingly safe, hitting through or trading with Link's nair consistently, and trades lead to Falcon landing grabs because he WILL hit the ground first while Link is busy having a jab that takes far too long to come out, a roll that sucks and a very slow jump. Falcon dominates Link's aerials when below him. His uair hits through every one of Link's moves. Projectiles are null and void because the time it takes to throw a boomerang is longer than the time it takes a DDing falcon to grab/nair Link. Knees on the shield are unpunishable due to Link's slow OOS game, same with nairs.

If Link is given space and the time to get projectiles out he can control the pace for as long as he has a bomb in his hands, but after the bomb explodes he'd better be able to combo or pull another because he's just helpless if he tries to pull without cover. Falcon can also combo into the knee from throws against Link, which means Link's fantastic recovery is pretty much worthless. Falcon can also edgeguard the hookshot with ease.

Again, matchup knowledge is extremely important. Falcons who have no idea how to play against Link can get their **** ruined. Falcons who know how to play against Link will laugh and win with relative ease.

 

[TheManaLord]

Marth doesn't have enough of an advantage to warrant that on this chart. Especially since it opposes what the top pro's had to say about it.

Against Pichu it's >>> for sure. Pichu is **** **** tier. It's no question, it dies super ****ing early and is easy as hell to fight against. I've played Chu's Pichu and idk there really aren't many but seriously it's no possible way only >> when you compare it to other matchups.

Being >> to Link is good.

 

[Roneblaster]

i just wanna say, links dair will **** a not perfectly spaced upair and probably a perfectly spaced on, up-b oos isnt omfgslow, so >>, but i've never faced a super comeptent link, except skler once.

 

[Kira-]

Knowledge and application are two different things you silly tran.

I was about to say that TML. Think of some people like critics or something.

So I should listen to MarthSlayeR_99 because he might be a really good critic? Let's not take that chance.

 

[TheManaLord]

*facepalm*

This thread works in a semi-reasonable manner. Input of top professionals is highly sought after and considered, and only group consensus' are approved.

 

[Hax]

hax you ******* you agreed w/ me on everything u prob didn't read my post

cocky *** east coast falcons...

who are you

 

[o-Serin-o]

Wow this thread is so ****ing LOL.

****'s so dumb, and until I can get better at melee and not just theorycraft, I'll just lurk.

 

[TheManaLord]

Wow this thread is so ****ing LOL.

****'s so dumb, and until I can get better at melee and not just theorycraft, I'll just lurk.

Join Date: Jul 2009
Brawl FC: 0258-9968-6815
Posts: 4,483
King Dedede


lmfao wow. fail.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I find myself liking most of ManaLord's post.

They make me smile.