Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[xbombr]

Sheik needs one grab, ftilt grab, or a knock down near her, knowledge of Falcon's tech animations, and mediocre edgegaurding skill to take his stock.

Falcon needs a large stage and to effectively bait Sheik into doing one of her reactionary options that goes through all of his moves and punish her so hard for it that she loses her stock.

Needles break his dash dancing so 3/4 of his defensive game is gone. Ftilt goes through everything so if he's not able to bait it successfully then he can't do anything. NAir and BAir also go through just about everything unless you're over him.

The only basis for Falcon not being << than Sheik is her susceptibility to combos. The problem is that he won't be able to get them going without good baiting.

If he's SuperFalcon, then baiting isn't an issue. For everyone else, one screw up = grab = 80% chance of lost stock against a top level tech chaser.

@bombr: the ranges you've listed aren't necesarilly static or considered by some people in this thread

I said it was disputed and that was only my opinion.

 

[TheManaLord]

I know. I actually agree with quantifying them in that manner. Some are just strongly opposed to even comparing the two forms. It's more up to the tc than anyone how they stack up when converted.

I'm on the fringe of sheik falcon and I'm fine with it either way.

 

[SleepyK]

njz is right

but imo tml and xbombr both bring up very good points about sheik falcon.
do we rate the chart according to the average player or tope/amsah/over/m2k vs darkrain/ss?

imo the best way to prove sheik v falcon is isaiah vs isaiah

 

[JPOBS]

i dont really think you have to be a super falcon to kill sheiks off of one hit.

ALL the top falcon routinely 0-death sheiks in every match. and even when they dont get the death, they put on enough percent such that the next solid hit sends her off stage, then she just gets ledgehop kneed till she dies.

i think it should be sheik > falcon.
mediocre sheiks wreck mediocre falcons. But top sheiks dont rage on top falcons badly enough for it to be >> and thats what should be represented in the chart imo

i dont see any reason why the chart should represent middle level play, or why we even care what happens at that level anyway

 

[SleepyK]

because mu charts also indicate general matchup difficulty.

 

[Winston]

njz is right

but imo tml and xbombr both bring up very good points about sheik falcon.
do we rate the chart according to the average player or tope/amsah/over/m2k vs darkrain/ss?

imo the best way to prove sheik v falcon is isaiah vs isaiah

generally the matchup chart is about the matchups played "at top level", but for this case is there even much of a difference? Falcon loses consistently at both top and mid level.

 

[john!]

Actually I was also under the impression that this was only about the top level. Can you clear this up for us Icy?



EDIT: Ninja'd...

 

[xbombr]

It's not mid-level play, what I was saying was that SuperFalcon (I.E. someone of a higher skill level) goes even with or beats Sheik.

At the same skill level, Falcon should not be able to bait well enough for Sheik to lose without making glaring mistakes. Since we assume equal skill level, that means Falcon would also make mistakes. Mistakes by Falcon lead to an EASY 0-death tech chase. No mistakes ALSO lead to the same tech chase or some gay edgegaurding.

Falcon is only anything other than << with Sheik when they are differing skill levels.

I mean if you want to talk about how top Falcons routinely 0-death Sheik players and play the example game, I can easily find videos of M2K 4 stocking Darkrain, KirbyKaze beating SS, ect. There's nothing mid-level about what Sheik can do to Falcon just because of his lack of priority over several of her moves and his bad tech roll.

When Falcon wins this match up it's either because Sheik made mistakes or there is a reasonable skill level gap.

 

[SleepyK]

iirc most other mu charts are not simply results-based. if this is the case then xbombr is correct, we could easily find results that prove both sides.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

imo the best way to prove sheik v falcon is isaiah vs isaiah

+ 1

 

[SleepyK]

+ 1 for your signature

so icy please let us know when you read these postsz.szszs.z.szs..zszszs s sdjadadadsa

 

[JPOBS]

It's not mid-level play, what I was saying was that SuperFalcon (I.E. someone of a higher skill level) goes even with or beats Sheik.

At the same skill level, Falcon should not be able to bait well enough for Sheik to lose without making glaring mistakes. Since we assume equal skill level, that means Falcon would also make mistakes. Mistakes by Falcon lead to an EASY 0-death tech chase. No mistakes ALSO lead to the same tech chase or some gay edgegaurding.

Falcon is only anything other than << with Sheik when they are differing skill levels.

I mean if you want to talk about how top Falcons routinely 0-death Sheik players and play the example game, I can easily find videos of M2K 4 stocking Darkrain, KirbyKaze beating SS, ect. There's nothing mid-level about what Sheik can do to Falcon just because of his lack of priority over several of her moves and his bad tech roll.

When Falcon wins this match up it's either because Sheik made mistakes or there is a reasonable skill level gap.

OK first of all, M2K vs anyone not named mango or armada should not be used as an example for anything ever. M2k is clearly a better player flat out than the rest of the world regardless, and its completely contradictory for you own logic because the players arent "of the same skill level" which YOU are proposing should be the basis of the chart. so you're contradicting yourself on that point.

Second, at the same skill levels, lets say tope/KK/Tec0 vs darkrain/SS/Hax respectively in recent tournaments, the matches have all been close, with the sheiks winning 2-1 set count (hax beat tec0 recently)

my point is, m2k is the only sheik which consistently destroys the falcons bad enough to make it look like a >> matchup. EVERY other sheik only squeeks out wins by 1 or two stocks and i fail to see how that represents a >> matchup.

 

[TheManaLord]

On this sentiment, I am in full accordance with JPOBS. Some of his earlier observations not so much though...

 

[xbombr]

Really seriously, if you want a results based tier list/match up thing, Sveet has a great thread that's stickied with how characters are ranked based on tourney results.

We don't know much about Tope's overall skill vs. that of Darkrain's or KK's vs. SS's or Tec0's vs. Hax's. I doubt they're exactly equivalent.

This is strictly character vs. character. It's based on what the characters are capable of in each match up, not what they have done and what they do.

edit: IMO, M2K makes the Sheik-Falcon match up look <<< lmao

 

[Roneblaster]

lol you guys are funny, Sheik >> Falcon

 

[Scar]

fox/falco - 65/35
spacies **** falcon but due to human limitations the matchup is much more even than it is in theory. fox ***** harder in theory and gets ***** harder practically while falco ***** less both in theory and in practice. therefore the fox matchup depends entirely on what the criteria are. it could go anywhere from 60/40 when considering human limitations to as far as 80/20 if fox plays completely technically with full mu knowledge

for the sake of a match-up chart i would argue that fox/falco both have a 65/35 matchup vs CF due to a reliable approach, hard punishes, little overall vulnerability, but fully capable of being killed from 1 hit consistently

sheik - 60/40
sheik has no approach vs cf. she punishes really hard and ***** the ****ing **** out of n00b CFs. any CF who has any idea what he's doing will say that sheik is not as hard as fox falco or jigglypuff unless it's experiencing m2k's sheik for the first time in which case the matchup is nearly impossible. cf also has no approach vs sheik but he has no approach vs anyone and punishes smaller mistakes than anyone, which is why it's definitely in sheik's favor, but solidly 60/40

marth - 55/45
marth beats falcon bc of safer approaches overall and guaranteed combos vs CF's non-guaranteed but more devastating punishes. edgeguarding falcon is very easy with marth and low% gimps are reliable if performed properly. falcon ***** bad marths but that shouldn't be considered. overall the matchup is close to even but a good marth vs a good falcon would be more/less a standoff since neither character should ever approach the other, but i'd give the edge to reliability and consistency over falcon's do-or-die style

jiggs - 65/35
good jiggs **** equally good falcons. it has been proven time and time again. bad jiggs lose to equally bad falcons, but that's irrelevant. jiggs doesn't die from knee at low enough %s if you factor in acceptable DI, dthrow knee doesn't reliably combo, dthrow can be rested out of at certain percentages, jiggs follows up her hits with combos and can combo into rest at low %s, falcon loses his combo game vs jiggs, jiggs edgeguards falcon with little to no risk even at low %s from a simple bthrow, falcon has no edgeguard vs jiggs

when played correctly the matchup isn't too bad (from what i've heard) but i've seen really good, patient falcons consistently lose very hard to equally good (or worse) jigglypuffs. my biases included maybe give it 60/40 to jiggs but you'd be stupid to put it at even or in falcon's favor.

tl;dr
SPACIES BEAT FALCON BUT NOT TOO BAD IN PRACTICE AS IN THEORY
SHEIK ISN'T THAT GOOD VS FALCON U R JUST DOING IT WRONG (m2k's skill > current falcon players's skill)
MARF BEATS FALCON
JIGGS BEATS FALCON

 

[Pi]

LOLOLOL

DK does not lose to the Marios (including Luigi)
DK ***** Samus

Fox and Peach >>> Samus

Falco is not YLink's hardest matchup (Fox is worse)
YLink > ICs

I'll elaborate after classes

Please do o.O

 

[NJzFinest]

Seeing how you're a Samus player:

DK vs Samus:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=118944
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7678938&postcount=695

DK vs Mario People:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185701&page=15
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5748205&postcount=228

Fox/Peach vs Samus... I would first like to see why anyone would think Fox is even and Peach loses... I'm fairly certain it's been agreed for awhile that Samus loses in both matchups.

 

[otg]

DK vs Samus: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=118944

I agree. I've felt that DK ***** Samus for awhile now, but it was ignored in the last MU Chart thread.

 

[1048576]

johhhns

all she's gotta do is push down B, mirite?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

DK definitely has the advantage vs defensive Samus. Offensive, on the other hand, is even imo.
I played Mexican in a few friendlies at Genesis. I'm not sure if this was the exact quote, but I believe what he said after our last game was "what am I even supposed to do!??"

 

[TheManaLord]

fox/falco - 65/35
spacies **** falcon but due to human limitations the matchup is much more even than it is in theory. fox ***** harder in theory and gets ***** harder practically while falco ***** less both in theory and in practice. therefore the fox matchup depends entirely on what the criteria are. it could go anywhere from 60/40 when considering human limitations to as far as 80/20 if fox plays completely technically with full mu knowledge

for the sake of a match-up chart i would argue that fox/falco both have a 65/35 matchup vs CF due to a reliable approach, hard punishes, little overall vulnerability, but fully capable of being killed from 1 hit consistently

sheik - 60/40
sheik has no approach vs cf. she punishes really hard and ***** the ****ing **** out of n00b CFs. any CF who has any idea what he's doing will say that sheik is not as hard as fox falco or jigglypuff unless it's experiencing m2k's sheik for the first time in which case the matchup is nearly impossible. cf also has no approach vs sheik but he has no approach vs anyone and punishes smaller mistakes than anyone, which is why it's definitely in sheik's favor, but solidly 60/40

marth - 55/45
marth beats falcon bc of safer approaches overall and guaranteed combos vs CF's non-guaranteed but more devastating punishes. edgeguarding falcon is very easy with marth and low% gimps are reliable if performed properly. falcon ***** bad marths but that shouldn't be considered. overall the matchup is close to even but a good marth vs a good falcon would be more/less a standoff since neither character should ever approach the other, but i'd give the edge to reliability and consistency over falcon's do-or-die style

jiggs - 65/35
good jiggs **** equally good falcons. it has been proven time and time again. bad jiggs lose to equally bad falcons, but that's irrelevant. jiggs doesn't die from knee at low enough %s if you factor in acceptable DI, dthrow knee doesn't reliably combo, dthrow can be rested out of at certain percentages, jiggs follows up her hits with combos and can combo into rest at low %s, falcon loses his combo game vs jiggs, jiggs edgeguards falcon with little to no risk even at low %s from a simple bthrow, falcon has no edgeguard vs jiggs

when played correctly the matchup isn't too bad (from what i've heard) but i've seen really good, patient falcons consistently lose very hard to equally good (or worse) jigglypuffs. my biases included maybe give it 60/40 to jiggs but you'd be stupid to put it at even or in falcon's favor.

tl;dr
SPACIES BEAT FALCON BUT NOT TOO BAD IN PRACTICE AS IN THEORY
SHEIK ISN'T THAT GOOD VS FALCON U R JUST DOING IT WRONG (m2k's skill > current falcon players's skill)
MARF BEATS FALCON
JIGGS BEATS FALCON

Awesome post. Really good stuff for the Falcon MU's.

 

[Niko45]

I'm not really sure how Marth is the one with guaranteed combos against CF when CF has throw to stock in huge % windows.

 

[t3h Icy]

Falcon > Ganondorf
Falcon > Doc
Jigglypuff > Marth
Marth > Falcon

Falcon >> Link?
Falcon >> Pichu?
Sheik > Falcon?

Also this is for top level, not mid level.

 

[TheManaLord]

Falcon > Ganondorf
Falcon > Doc
Jigglypuff > Marth
Marth > Falcon Marth = Falcon

Falcon >> Link?
Falcon >> Pichu? Falcon >>> Pichu
Sheik > Falcon?

Also this is for top level, not mid level.

I'm pretty sure the consensus was still marth falcon is equal in respect to this chart.

And who the **** advocated Falcon only >> pichu? There is definitely a large gap between falcon's >> matchups and pichu lmao

 

[xbombr]

sheik - 60/40
sheik has no approach vs cf. she punishes really hard and ***** the ****ing **** out of n00b CFs. any CF who has any idea what he's doing will say that sheik is not as hard as fox falco or jigglypuff unless it's experiencing m2k's sheik for the first time in which case the matchup is nearly impossible. cf also has no approach vs sheik but he has no approach vs anyone and punishes smaller mistakes than anyone, which is why it's definitely in sheik's favor, but solidly 60/40

As much as I trust Scar's opinion since he's an amazing Falcon, I think he's relating Sheik to other MU's too much. Sheiks will tell you that Foxes are harder than Falcon and Sheik isn't even with Fox so just relating match ups doesn't work.

If Sheik isn't as good against Falcon as Fox or Falco is, then there's nothing saying that Falcon's match up with Fox isn't 70-30 and Sheik's is 65-35, which would still fall under <<, imo.

Lacking an approach isn't match up defining when neither character has an approach. In theory, Falcon should never breach Sheik's defense because he doesn't have a move that does it, while Sheik has plenty of moves that go through Falcon's and the advantage of having a projectile. In practice this doesn't happen and everything you've said is true, but in theory (which is all this sort of MU chart really is) Sheik should not lose to Falcon.

 

[Pi]

Seeing how you're a Samus player:

DK vs Samus:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=118944
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7678938&postcount=695

DK vs Mario People:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185701&page=15
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5748205&postcount=228

Fox/Peach vs Samus... I would first like to see why anyone would think Fox is even and Peach loses... I'm fairly certain it's been agreed for awhile that Samus loses in both matchups.

I really do have limited DK experience
I fought rockcrocks DK, and my buddy plays around with the donkey on occasions,
The matchup definitely isn't easy, I do think I lost to rock's DK, but I never felt at a large disadvantage.
DK's bair is no worse than jiggs, and I've learned to deal with that
His UB does catch me off guard, and rockcrock was edgeguarding me with it quite succesfully
And I was unable to find a reliable way to edgeguard DK, just remembered that
His shield sucks, though.
His combo's are mediocre
And his spacing game is lacking, he doesn't have the aerial maneuverability that jiggs does, so spacing bairs only takes him so far
Ftilt is slower than samus', and her WD is clearly superior


I was a bit put off by 'dk ***** samus' and fox and peach >>> samus...
Fox is meh, dk is meh, peach is annoying but still pretty meh. they all may have advantages over samus, but certainly not to the '****' or '>>>' extent.
Except maybe fox if he's played super gay.

 

[NJzFinest]

It's true that he doesn't have the aerial maneuverability that Jiggs does, but he doesn't necessarily need it. Repetitive spaced Bairs don't get punished any easier from DK as opposed to Puff by Samus. DK's Ftilt is in fact slow, but when used with spaced Bairs, it can punish a Samus who thinks they can do anything in between the Bair and Ftilt. It's a little something I picked up from Bum/Mexican when they fight Marth players. Even spaced Giant Punch is surprisingly amazing in this matchup. I say it's **** cause I see an option for almost anything Samus can dish out (and it's almost always a Bair here and there lol).

What spaceballs brought up is pretty interesting. Not sure what's the clear separation between a defensive Samus and offensive one, they all seem pretty "gay" to me haha. Does Alukard count as offensive? My DK did extremely well for whatever his playstyle is.

Fox can camp Samus and "low" Bairs can't be punished by Up B oos. He's also one of the few characters that can actually combo and easily kill her. Idk, knowing CunningKitsune and having him show me what Fox can do to Samus makes the matchup look incredibly lame for her.

Peach... I've always heard it was a one sided matchup. I'm simply surprised to finally see someone challenge that and it would be cool to see what Samus actually has going for her.

 

[TheManaLord]

In practice this doesn't happen and everything you've said is true, but in theory (which is all this sort of MU chart really is)

That's not true...:embarrass

 

[xbombr]

That's not true...:embarrass

o_O; What's wrong with what I said? In practice, Falcon does breach Sheik's defense through mindgames and good baiting, but in theory it shouldn't happen since it's a mistake.

It's not like Sheik's nair, bair, ftilt, ect. are so slow that she has to predict Falcon to shut him down.

Seriously, in theory, Sheik just throws needles at Falcon to break his dash dancing, she gets the % lead since neither have an approach, but she doesn't have to approach to do damage. Falcon's now forced to approach since he's behind, Sheik plays her defensive game the entire time, thus ****** Falcon because her defense > his offense.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I don't think a character that is based entirely on bair/dashdance->grab/shield-camping should be throwing around "gay" at any other characters, even as a joke.

Basically my idea of the matchup is... I ban FD, and suddenly I'm faster and more maneuverable than DK by a very noticeable margin. So what was a spacing/range based, slow-paced, shield -> counterattack oos heavy game, turns into basically what Samus vs good characters is like, but in reverse. As best I can tell, DK gets no real utility out of the existence of platforms vs Samus. If he falls through he's either going to bair or uair, whereas Samus gets many more options because of her amazing aerials, not to mention missiles (and before you say that bair goes right through them, that means I forced you to bair in a certain spot and can capitalize on that), plus the added positioning/speed options from her wavelands. Then add in the fact that DK can be forced to tech on platforms while Samus really can't. Then add in the fact that even if DK wasn't forced to tech, he still has to get down somehow, and Samus' uair and fair are going to make that very difficult for a huge character who can't do much except bair when an opponent is below him.

The matchup is still balanced by:
a) DK outlives Samus. He's heavier, his recovery is really difficult for her to deal with safely, and he can be a total ***** to her when she's off the stage.
b) Cargo uair is reliable, Samus still has to rely on mostly pokes for KOs.
c) Try as I might to avoid them, I'm still going to get into situations where I'm facing (not really facing, because he'll probably have his back to me, but w/e) DK on a level playing field, and he does have the advantage there.

 

[TheManaLord]

So DK > Samus?

 

[MK26]

Icy, you've got Kirby v. Doc at -3 but Doc v. Kirby at +2

Also, what do you use to calculate the averages? An excel spreadsheet?

Also, to calculate the averages and stuff, divide by 25 and discount the ditto matchup instead of dividing by 26 and including it...you dont need to round the numbers that come out (nothing's got more than 2 digits), and it'll have no bearing on the order (a difference of .5 between two numbers becomes a difference of .52)

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

On FD DK > Samus
Any other neutral and DK = Samus
Is my opinion of the matter.

 

[n1000]

xbombr, ManaLord's point is that the matchup chart is not mere theory but what the top level players actually do (and are able to do, which is a theoretical point but it stands because these things have actually happened).

So you say, "sheik should not lose to falcon," true enough, nor should fox lose to anyone because he should JC shine shield break every match. The fact of the matter is that the world's best Captain Falcons presently do pretty **** well against Sheiks because they can pull off the mindgames which "shouldn't happen."

If we accept that neither Sheik nor Falcon has a good approach against the other then Sheik's needles will create an insurmountable advantage. The actual case is presently shutting down all of falcon's approaches is just too **** hard. Current falcons can bait mistakes and win matches. (Unlike Falcon vs Falco...)

 

[NJzFinest]

Lol, DK wish he could shield grab camp with that garbz shield of his Imo DK is in no way gay Sure, he Bair spams and dash dance grabs, but at least he gets awesome combos out if it. He's basically a bad CFalcon. Nevertheless, it's a lot cooler then wavedash back camping and oosing out of shield every other second. He doesn't even have a projectile and Samuses recovery is painful to just watch. Not gonna lie though, you're like, the only person who makes Samus look cool. Wish I got to play you at JAB2 haha.

DK and platforms, yeah, he's pretty much going to Bair most of the time. However spamming spaced Bairs from platforms in general is pretty effective vs Samus in general, ex. Sheik, Ganon, spacies (and DK's Bair surprisingly competes with theirs). It's pretty save and beats CC/Oos/WD back stuffz. I actually prefer to Bair "camp" from platforms as opposed to just SHing over and over.
As for missles, Bairing them isn't as punishable as it my seem. I mean, it's not laggy at all, you can even decide to just auto cancel it. Sometimes I just dash away and do a retreat auto canceled Bair. Usually, if I know the Samus is approaching or is decently close I'll pretend the missile doesn't even exist and throw out a Bair on Samus (the kick will just eat the missile and Samus). Also despite his size, DK is fairly mobile and doesn't even need to resort to that.
As for DK being punished when above Samus, I completely agree, but it's hard for me to even imagine DK being above Samus even semi-often.


----

Btw, what do Samus players think about YLink vs Samus?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I can't speak for them all, but I know I can't stand it. I cannot seem to stop falling into his stupid projectile control game, which results in me getting frustrated and making more mistakes. I'm probably pretty good at the matchup from playing Iori so much, but I still feel just ******** when I play Young Links.

Oh and I completely agree about Samus' recovery being painful to watch. I've apologized to people mid-match for how long it takes.

 

[Ryzol_]

And I was unable to find a reliable way to edgeguard DK, just remembered that

As far as edgeguarding DK goes, uptilt him. I know it works with CF's utilt, so I'm assuming it works with samus's utilt too.

 

[t3h Icy]

I'm pretty sure the consensus was still marth falcon is equal in respect to this chart.

And who the **** advocated Falcon only >> pichu? There is definitely a large gap between falcon's >> matchups and pichu lmao

Falcon >> Pichu was brought up but nobody went over it, hence the question mark.

Icy, you've got Kirby v. Doc at -3 but Doc v. Kirby at +2

Fixed.

Also, what do you use to calculate the averages? An excel spreadsheet?

Yup.

Also, to calculate the averages and stuff, divide by 25 and discount the ditto matchup instead of dividing by 26 and including it...you dont need to round the numbers that come out (nothing's got more than 2 digits), and it'll have no bearing on the order (a difference of .5 between two numbers becomes a difference of .52)

If you don't include all 26 characters (which includes the ditto), then you're skipping over a potential match-up. Obviously it's even, but of the 26 characters you can be up against, it may be a ditto. Think of it this way: suppose there's a character that destroys every other character. Would that character have a +3 against every possible opponent? No, because if the opponent dittos you, it's an even game.

Also I just did the two digit part for informational purposes.

DK/Samus stuff

Maybe Hugs will pop into this thread again once Samus gets a turn and go over the match-up more. Or maybe DK players.

Sheik>Falcon

I'll go over this in-depth later, but if you can get grabbed and nearly lose a stock, not to mention Sheik is built for getting grabs, it's not an easy match-up at all. Fox's waveshining at least ends, while Sheik could potentially keep going with grab combos until Falcon is off the edge and then gimp (Fox can shine spike, but isn't as good as Sheik in general gimping).

 

[TheManaLord]

I want to contest Falcon being equal to Pikachu.

Yes Pikachu can give falcon some trouble, but in no way is the matchup comparable to Falcon's other even matchups (marth, peach, ic's). It's much more in league with Falcon > Pikachu. Anyone else have similar sentiments?