Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[ihavespaceblondes]

I want to contest Falcon being equal to Pikachu.

Yes Pikachu can give falcon some trouble, but in no way is the matchup comparable to Falcon's other even matchups (marth, peach, ic's). It's much more in league with Falcon > Pikachu. Anyone else have similar sentiments?

As someone who lived with Pikachad for over a year and had a constantly visiting high level Falcon (NES n00b) I agree. Pikachu and Falcon **** each other up, but Falcon is still the better character, and it really shows when you watch a Falcon with matchup experience. Throw/aerial to knee low percentage kos (because let's face it, Pika isn't a very heavy rat) equal out Pika's tailspikes/edgeguards/chaingrabs where it really counts: stocks. And I'd argue that Falcon has the advantage in the approach game, giving him the slight edge.

 

[Pi]

Fox can camp Samus and "low" Bairs can't be punished by Up B oos. He's also one of the few characters that can actually combo and easily kill her. Idk, knowing CunningKitsune and having him show me what Fox can do to Samus makes the matchup look incredibly lame for her.

Peach... I've always heard it was a one sided matchup. I'm simply surprised to finally see someone challenge that and it would be cool to see what Samus actually has going for her.

If fox knows how to seamlessly dodge missiles and laser and force samus approach...yea...sucks

Peach, is annoying for sure, I don't know whether to be offensive or defensive half the time, and her dash attack is annoying as ****.

Btw, what do Samus players think about YLink vs Samus?

I can't speak for them all, but I know I can't stand it. I cannot seem to stop falling into his stupid projectile control game, which results in me getting frustrated and making more mistakes. I'm probably pretty good at the matchup from playing Iori so much, but I still feel just ******** when I play Young Links.

Oh and I completely agree about Samus' recovery being painful to watch. I've apologized to people mid-match for how long it takes.

I've got some matches recorded of me vs. darksonic's Y.Link, I'll link here when my friend gets em uploaded.
I really not sure what to do, and I've only found openings when he's pulling bombs and doesn't have boomerangs and arrows coming at me.
His range is pretty dumb though, so he can't really approach if his projectiles don't hit
I don't really know how to get around his projectiles though, it's tough, requires matchup experience for sure.

As far as edgeguarding DK goes, uptilt him. I know it works with CF's utilt, so I'm assuming it works with samus's utilt too.

Yea, ultilt is ideal but...idk I fought rockcrocks DK and he made it tough for sure, he would spin just out of range of my utilt if I was trying to space it, and if I wasn't far enough on the stage he'd spin on me or something. It's tough

 

[JPOBS]

Throw/aerial to knee low percentage kos (because let's face it, Pika isn't a very heavy rat) equal out Pika's tailspikes/edgeguards/chaingrabs where it really counts: stocks. And I'd argue that Falcon has the advantage in the approach game, giving him the slight edge.

I've heard high level pikas (n64, axe) and falcons who play those pikas often (jetfour, GG7) say on numerous occasion that its almost impossible/very hard to hit pika with throw->knee when the pika knows what he's doing.

i generally hate throwing out players names and using word of mouth as proof/reason for anything, but seeing as how no pika mains frequent this thread i figured i'd throw that out there as food for thought. take it for what its worth.

 

[xbombr]

xbombr, ManaLord's point is that the matchup chart is not mere theory but what the top level players actually do (and are able to do, which is a theoretical point but it stands because these things have actually happened).

So you say, "sheik should not lose to falcon," true enough, nor should fox lose to anyone because he should JC shine shield break every match. The fact of the matter is that the world's best Captain Falcons presently do pretty **** well against Sheiks because they can pull off the mindgames which "shouldn't happen."

If we accept that neither Sheik nor Falcon has a good approach against the other then Sheik's needles will create an insurmountable advantage. The actual case is presently shutting down all of falcon's approaches is just too **** hard. Current falcons can bait mistakes and win matches. (Unlike Falcon vs Falco...)

You're confusing a difference in skill level for actual match up advantage. If Falcon can get the mindgame that MIGHT lead to a stock, then Sheik can just as easily get the mindgame that WILL lead to a stock and it can happen from a lower %, with less effort, AND Sheik doesn't have to approach to get it, plus you can combo into the grab using a move that goes through EVERY SINGLE APPROACH that Falcon has.

I'm not saying that M2K or some other top level Sheik should be considered the same skill level as SS or Scar or something, I'm saying that the top Falcons and top Sheiks aren't comparable at all. It's impossible to know exactly what skill level everyone is because they're all limited in different ways by their characters and natural abilities.

Unless the people in this thread are actually questioning the fact that Falcon is a more limited character overall than Sheik (and hence are questioning him not being tied with her), what skill levels the current pros are is irrelevant because there's another factor, the character they use. You can't have two independent variables and expect to be accurate at all because you don't know what caused the change.

M2K wrecking Falcons with Sheik could be him being that much better, his character being that much better, or a combination of the two.

Finally, it is possible for even top level players to be bad at a match up. So some of these Sheiks that lose to Falcons or "barely beat" Falcons might be just not as good as the match up as they could be with their ability. I think it's impossible to find a Falcon and a Sheik, at the exact same level both skillwise and with their characters, with the same experience in the match up, playing at their best every time. Even then, Falcon is just more limited overall as a character which makes skill level of actual players even more irrelevant.

 

[Archangel]

are we talking Samus or Falcon???

I don't think Peach vs Samus is 1 sided. When Hugs fought Armada on the live stream he was giving as good as he was getting.

as for Pika vs Falcon I think the match-up depends on how familiar the players are with the match. An Experience Pika will confuse the hell out of Falcon but if they have extensive knowledge of the match I'd say Falcon has the edge 55-45 but that's just my opinion.

 

[Winston]

I've heard high level pikas (n64, axe) and falcons who play those pikas often (jetfour, GG7) say on numerous occasion that its almost impossible/very hard to hit pika with throw->knee when the pika knows what he's doing.

i generally hate throwing out players names and using word of mouth as proof/reason for anything, but seeing as how no pika mains frequent this thread i figured i'd throw that out there as food for thought. take it for what its worth.

n64 did post a big wall of text about how Pikachu = Falcon.

And yeah, dthrow knee does not work on high level pikachus. Magus confirmed.

 

[TheManaLord]

It's magus confirmed that dthrow knee doesn't work on a lot of characters. When I explicitly asked him about this and why it hasn't been done since the dawn of time he said it's not always doable because it's difficulty and it's not something that can be done with a certain degree of consistency.

 

[Hax]

falcons matchups with the top 7 other than himself:

fox: -1
falco: -2
jiggs: -1
sheik: -1
marth: +1
peach: 0

 

[n1000]

Hax, if it's not too much to ask could you post a few words about the Sheik matchup? it seems to be the main point of controversy right now.

xbombr: You're making a good point, and I want to agree. All of my experience in this matchup has been Sheik ****** Falcon for the very reasons you describe. Yet, at top levels the Falcon pros miraculously bait mistakes and punish really well so the games og pretty even.

It's a hard sell because you're "theoretically" right and I think most of us have felt firsthand Sheik's seemingly insurmountable defense vs Falcon. I hope Hax or Scar and a Sheik pro would be willing to shed some light on this matchup at top skill levels.

 

[Mahone]

Its funny how mains always think they have pretty much only bad matchups. Im to blame as well, as i think jiggs has a bad matchup against most of the top tiers. I think we need to just use Mango's opinion for every single matchup, even the characters he doesn't play because its clear he understands the game more than anyone else.

 

[n1000]

No. Cool story though.

 

[t3h Icy]

falcons matchups with the top 7 other than himself:

fox: -1
falco: -2
jiggs: -1
sheik: -1
marth: +1
peach: 0

I'd love to hear your opinions Hax. =)

 

[JPOBS]

about the whole sheik vs falcon controversy of theoretical prowess vs practical/mindgames

We can talk all we want about how theoretically sheik can do all these terrible things and break falcon down in all sorts of ways, and how falcon has to "mindgame" sheik and "play perfectly by killing off of one hit" and that all seems very dismal.

In the end, i'd rather have a chart reflecting what actually happens in game (i.e. falcon doesnt get roasted by sheik because he CAN and DOES often do awesome combos and mindgames) than one which preferentially dictates theory fighter bros (i.e. sheik can never lose to falcon because everything she does beats everything he does)

if we're going with the latter though, please put all of fox's matchups to 100-0 because he can in theory lasers camp perfectly and then kill with upthrow->perfectly spaces upair.

 

[xbombr]

JPOBS you're overexaggerating. Fox is good, but it's not to the point where he can just break shields at will. There are gaps in his shield pressure and moves that ruin his approach. Other characters manuever too well for him to have a 100-0 just because of laser camping. Technically Falco could probably outcamp him since his lasers don't stun and Falco's do. C. Fal can run him down. Some characters can duck the laser game. All I'm saying is that current player's skill levels are not relevant to the match up thread since this is character based, not player based.

A good example of what I'm saying about the Sheik-Falcon match up can be seen in other match ups too. Pikachu for example can 0-Death chaingrab Fox, but Fox has a >> against Pikachu despite not having a 0-Death combo or chaingrab that works everytime of his own. Pikachu falls from shine, so it's not like you can say he's able to just continuously waveshine him across the stage and back until usmash kills. The reason Pikachu is << with Fox probably has something to do with Pikachu not being able to secure the grab he needs to 0-Death Fox easily among a few other things like a lack of defense and priority. These things are relevant to what Captain Falcon faces when he fights Sheik. He has the 0-Death combo (sometimes, on large stages), but no way to secure it against someone of equal skill level. He doesn't have the priority or the defense due to Sheik's tilts, aerials, and projectile.

None of it is there. The only cases for Sheik being only > with Falcon is the fact that he has the potential to combo her hard and he runs faster, but that's not really all that applicable since it's not like his camping is great against Sheik.

 

[Winston]

None of it is there. The only cases for Sheik being only > with Falcon is the fact that he has the potential to combo her hard and he runs faster, but that's not really all that applicable since it's not like his camping is great against Sheik.

No, the case for Sheik being > is that Sheik can't really approach falcon either and force those 0-deaths, unlike say Falco. Needles don't do as much as you say, and even ftilt is bait->punishable.

 

[t3h Icy]

Fox being one of the fastest characters and difficult to grab based on his moves, combined with Pikachu's not superb ground game (and Pikachu wants to be underneath Fox), and having the shortest grab range of all characters pulls back the use of his chaingrab. Not to mention that if there's a platform nearby, or an edge Fox can get past, the chaingrab ends (though follow-ups can still happen).

Sheik and Falcon are kind of the reverse of that.

 

[Blackshadow]

What we know a character can do in a matchup is based on the top players who have shown how each matchup plays. Our knowledge of any characters options in a given matchup is based on a previous player doing them and succeeding. Saying this chart is based on character and not players is therefore incorrect, since the character is made by it's players.

 

[t3h Icy]

Sheik/Falcon in my opinion:

Sheik can't really approach besides clanking Nairs, outranging with Bair (I wouldn't recommend that), or doing moves on the ground, but ground moves set up for a combo if Falcon lands a Dair. Sheik's Needles also have limited use since they don't help much with edgeguarding, except for hitting Falcon as he uses his second jump. Using Needles for approaching is a bad idea because Falcon is quick. Missing Falcon with Needles leads to Falcon combos.

Still though, Sheik is made for getting grabs. Of course it's somewhat harder than what people make of it, but it's still not that difficult. Falcon can only attack and avoid grabs at the same time by using Dair, Nair (at about Sheik's head, but Sheik can duck) or something else weird.

Fun fact: if you look closely at Sheik while ducking, you can see a very slight undulation. Only at the top of this undulation is when Falcon can grab you, and even then, Falcon has to be almost right on top of you. So Falcon shouldn't be grabbing Sheik, which means Falcon has to rely on combos through aerials, and not out of grabs.

Falcon also isn't as good as Sheik in edgeguarding. If Falcon is off, Sheik can Bair, Nair or be creative and do a reverse Needle into something. Falcon can Bair, maybe Uair, or force Sheik to land and hit with the Knee, but that doesn't necessarily mean death for Sheik.

Sheik >> Falcon

 

[Magus420]

It's magus confirmed that dthrow knee doesn't work on a lot of characters. When I explicitly asked him about this and why it hasn't been done since the dawn of time he said it's not always doable because it's difficulty and it's not something that can be done with a certain degree of consistency.

For Pikachu to avoid d-throw knee on the stage they only need to DI the throw and tech. What I explained before was for Zelda (as well as Peach, Mewtwo, and possibly ICs and G&W), who needs to DI the throw and time a near perfect wiggle/jump->airdodge the moment just before the knee connects. They aren't really comparable.

 

[TheManaLord]

Oh ty =) Aren't there follow ups to di'ing down though? THat seems weird if there isn't....

 

[xbombr]

Fox being one of the fastest characters and difficult to grab based on his moves, combined with Pikachu's not superb ground game (and Pikachu wants to be underneath Fox), and having the shortest grab range of all characters pulls back the use of his chaingrab. Not to mention that if there's a platform nearby, or an edge Fox can get past, the chaingrab ends (though follow-ups can still happen).

Sheik and Falcon are kind of the reverse of that.

The reason they're limited the way that they're limited is different, but overall they have to overcome the same things. It's just that Falcon doesn't have to try and outrun Sheik, while Pikachu can't catch up to Fox. Pikachu has trouble catching Fox and getting through his defense, Falcon has trouble just getting through Sheik's defense. Both of them equate to not being able to utilize their zero death combos without mistakes from the other side.

If we can assume that one side is making mistakes, then it's only fair that the other is making them too since this is comparing even skill levels. Sheik can easily 0-death Falcon as well, so if we remove the mistakes factor, then we get what the match up really is. Even with mistakes on both players parts, what we get is a << match up.

What we know a character can do in a matchup is based on the top players who have shown how each matchup plays. Our knowledge of any characters options in a given matchup is based on a previous player doing them and succeeding. Saying this chart is based on character and not players is therefore incorrect, since the character is made by it's players.

While we owe our knowledge of the game to previous players, using them as an example and saying they're even skill level with someone else is incorrect. Every game has a winner and loser and people are using characters with different levels of limitation. Taj has the best M2 in the world, but that doesn't mean he won't get outplaced by a Fox who might not be as good of a player as he is. These results most certainly don't reflect skill level. That might be the same guy that Taj JV 5 stocked with Marth. Who knows?

My point is that results are not representative of skill and conditions.

For all we know, M2K and SS could be at the exact same skill level. M2K is using the top 3 characters in the game while SS is using like number 7. It also just so happens that 2 of the characters M2K plays are some of Falcon's worst match ups. I mean look this is kind of Inui Logic I guess, but Jeff beat Armada and M2K's lost to him twice. I'm not saying that Jeff is better than M2K just because he beat Armada, but they have to be playing around the somewhat similar levels if we compare how they did against to Armada.

Yet there are these non-M2K/Amsah Sheiks that do beat the same top Falcons and pretty consistently too. This chart isn't about your chances of 2/3/4 stocking someone, it's about the chances of winning in general, not how bad you destroy them when you do win. I don't think it's fair to say that M2K's results can't be used when he could possibly be the same skill level as the Falcons that he destroys, but just using a better character, while we are taking something like Hax beating some other Sheik (don't know who it was) into account when we don't really know anything about either of their skill levels in comparison to each other. Nothing says that Falcon CAN'T win in practice, hence it not being a <<< match up at even skill levels.

Overall using results is a bad idea although we definitely owe our knowledge of the game to the players. I've seen Falcons win before, but I've also seen Sheiks completely destroy them with more frequency.

 

[TheManaLord]

Just as jiggs destroyed everyone for the past few years. Things are changing though. Sheik falcon at it's most recent is finally becoming more manageable for falcon it's still a solid disadvantge. But check in comparison to the other matchups deemed equivalent.

 

[Lovage]

lol i think falco annihilates falcon too but i was too scared to say it cuz people were gonna say its not as bad as fox (it's worse imo)



btw hax beat amsah at p4, just sayin

 

[xbombr]

That only further proves my point of results not mattering.

 

[Roneblaster]

im with lovage, i was scared to say it, but

Falco >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Falcon

 

[TheManaLord]

I also feel falco is harder than sheik.

Fox and sheik are comparable, the hard end of >. Falco skims the >>. It's warranted for sure

 

[PEEF!]

LOLOLOL

DK does not lose to the Marios (including Luigi)
DK ***** Samus

Fox and Peach >>> Samus

Falco is not YLink's hardest matchup (Fox is worse)
YLink > ICs

I'll elaborate after classes

Wait...who said that in ur signature?

I agree with this that Manalord posted:
Falcon < sheik
falcon < jiggz
falcon >> link
falcon >> ylink

 

[Blackshadow]

While we owe our knowledge of the game to previous players, using them as an example and saying they're even skill level with someone else is incorrect. Every game has a winner and loser and people are using characters with different levels of limitation. Taj has the best M2 in the world, but that doesn't mean he won't get outplaced by a Fox who might not be as good of a player as he is. These results most certainly don't reflect skill level. That might be the same guy that Taj JV 5 stocked with Marth. Who knows?

My point is that results are not representative of skill and conditions.

For all we know, M2K and SS could be at the exact same skill level. M2K is using the top 3 characters in the game while SS is using like number 7. It also just so happens that 2 of the characters M2K plays are some of Falcon's worst match ups. I mean look this is kind of Inui Logic I guess, but Jeff beat Armada and M2K's lost to him twice. I'm not saying that Jeff is better than M2K just because he beat Armada, but they have to be playing around the somewhat similar levels if we compare how they did against to Armada.

Yet there are these non-M2K/Amsah Sheiks that do beat the same top Falcons and pretty consistently too. This chart isn't about your chances of 2/3/4 stocking someone, it's about the chances of winning in general, not how bad you destroy them when you do win. I don't think it's fair to say that M2K's results can't be used when he could possibly be the same skill level as the Falcons that he destroys, but just using a better character, while we are taking something like Hax beating some other Sheik (don't know who it was) into account when we don't really know anything about either of their skill levels in comparison to each other. Nothing says that Falcon CAN'T win in practice, hence it not being a <<< match up at even skill levels.

Overall using results is a bad idea although we definitely owe our knowledge of the game to the players. I've seen Falcons win before, but I've also seen Sheiks completely destroy them with more frequency.

I wasn't saying we should use results. I was saying that to say players have no relation at all when discussing specific matchups is false, since the options we're discussing are what those players have shown to specifically work in their character's favour when fighting other characters.

 

[Kason Birdman]

About the sheik and falco fiasco. Im not sure but id say sheik is harder

 

[null55]

yeah... beyond tope chasing, i don't think there's anything that Sheik has that makes the match up vs Falcon close to as bad what it is vs Falco. lasers saved Falco from being a good but not amazing character, and as a result it's Falcon's worst match-up, imo.

you basically just need to laser....

 

[unknown522]

fox/falco - 65/35
spacies **** falcon but due to human limitations the matchup is much more even than it is in theory. fox ***** harder in theory and gets ***** harder practically while falco ***** less both in theory and in practice. therefore the fox matchup depends entirely on what the criteria are. it could go anywhere from 60/40 when considering human limitations to as far as 80/20 if fox plays completely technically with full mu knowledge

for the sake of a match-up chart i would argue that fox/falco both have a 65/35 matchup vs CF due to a reliable approach, hard punishes, little overall vulnerability, but fully capable of being killed from 1 hit consistently

sheik - 60/40
sheik has no approach vs cf. she punishes really hard and ***** the ****ing **** out of n00b CFs. any CF who has any idea what he's doing will say that sheik is not as hard as fox falco or jigglypuff unless it's experiencing m2k's sheik for the first time in which case the matchup is nearly impossible. cf also has no approach vs sheik but he has no approach vs anyone and punishes smaller mistakes than anyone, which is why it's definitely in sheik's favor, but solidly 60/40

marth - 55/45
marth beats falcon bc of safer approaches overall and guaranteed combos vs CF's non-guaranteed but more devastating punishes. edgeguarding falcon is very easy with marth and low% gimps are reliable if performed properly. falcon ***** bad marths but that shouldn't be considered. overall the matchup is close to even but a good marth vs a good falcon would be more/less a standoff since neither character should ever approach the other, but i'd give the edge to reliability and consistency over falcon's do-or-die style

jiggs - 65/35
good jiggs **** equally good falcons. it has been proven time and time again. bad jiggs lose to equally bad falcons, but that's irrelevant. jiggs doesn't die from knee at low enough %s if you factor in acceptable DI, dthrow knee doesn't reliably combo, dthrow can be rested out of at certain percentages, jiggs follows up her hits with combos and can combo into rest at low %s, falcon loses his combo game vs jiggs, jiggs edgeguards falcon with little to no risk even at low %s from a simple bthrow, falcon has no edgeguard vs jiggs

when played correctly the matchup isn't too bad (from what i've heard) but i've seen really good, patient falcons consistently lose very hard to equally good (or worse) jigglypuffs. my biases included maybe give it 60/40 to jiggs but you'd be stupid to put it at even or in falcon's favor.

tl;dr
SPACIES BEAT FALCON BUT NOT TOO BAD IN PRACTICE AS IN THEORY
SHEIK ISN'T THAT GOOD VS FALCON U R JUST DOING IT WRONG (m2k's skill > current falcon players's skill)
MARF BEATS FALCON
JIGGS BEATS FALCON

I agree with all of them except for sheik. I don't think KK will ever lose to a falcon at his current skill level in tourney, even though he has like 0 experience in that matchup (except vs his younger brother that doesn't play competitively). Also, M2K's sheik is pretty lol, but he can **** characters that he can infinite, or beat players that suck vs sheik. It's definitely nowhere near his marth or fox.

 

[MaNg0]

falcons matchups with the top 7 other than himself:

fox: -1
falco: -2
jiggs: -1
sheik: -1
marth: +1
peach: 0

fox: -3

falco: -1

jiggs: -2

marth: 0

peach: 2 Ive seen to many darkrain videos =D

 

[unknown522]

what about sheik mango?

 

[Divinokage]

fox >>> Falcon, really Mango? lol.

 

[Diakonos]

Lol how come EVERYONE is a BROOMER except me?

I was drinking some tropical juice during breakfast the other day. I looked at the juice label and almost choked: Mango doesn't play Orange Peach!

 

[unknown522]

MBR is pretty lol.

Also, Kage is right.

 

[TheManaLord]

MBR is like half canadian. or at least they post a **** ton more than the other mbr members

 

[Roneblaster]

i think what you meant to say TML is that every Canadian smasher is in the MBR, but the MBR isnt made up of %100 Canadian members.

 

[Divinokage]

Nah I'm the only one from Montreal in MBR =P

 

[MaNg0]

fox destroys falcon

i always thought falcon does really well against falco


once fox hits your shield as falcon

it should be some super duper damage

u guys are just noobs and dont understand anything


**** noobs

<3


sheik: -4 unless its my falcon then its plus 5