Marth's Tier Placement Discussion

[Remzi]

something tells me allot of you guys have no warios in your region.

he's a horrendously defensive character and rivals all the "fair spamming" characters like marf in terms of gimping.

his only weakness is priority in some of his air attacks and getting release grabbed. A defensive wario doesnt get grabbed...

Since when was Marth renowned for his gimping game? This isn't June bro.

And there is no priority in the air >_> It's just about whose hitboxes crosses the opponents hurtbox first.

Nobody's doubting that Wario is a great character, but he certainly isn't as good a character as Marth. He doesn't have the tournament results or the matchups to even compare.

 

[Dark Ryu]

Gheb a good and smart Marth has the slight advantage against Diddy, as well as Diddy having more bad matchups then Marth having. What I'm trying to say is that Marth should be above Diddy. For now at least

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It doesn't matter how many good match-up's you have when they don't matter. Marth loses to 3 of the top4 characters, while Diddy beats one of them slightly (D3 afaik, don't quote me on it CO18) and goes even (Snake) or close to it with another one (MK).

I don't think Marth vs Falco is in Marths favour it's 5/5 imo but I'm not gonna discuss match-up's it's a waste of time. Point is Diddy has better match-up's vs top tiers than Marth does and so does Olimar.

 

[Remzi]

It doesn't matter how many good match-up's you have when they don't matter. Marth loses to 3 of the top4 characters, while Diddy beats one of them slightly (D3 afaik, don't quote me on it CO18) and goes even (Snake) or close to it with another one (MK).

I don't think Marth vs Falco is in Marths favour it's 5/5 imo but I'm not gonna discuss match-up's it's a waste of time. Point is Diddy has better match-up's vs top tiers than Marth does and so does Olimar.

I understand you don't want to debate it, but it's been discussed to DEATH. Marth beats Falco in a matchup, period. I'd love to see you prove me wrong on this.

Within top and high tiers, Marth has better matchups than Diddy Kong AND Olimar IIRC. Not to mention the most important factor, tournament results, go largely in Marth's favor. I have no doubts that Diddy and Olimar will become more popular soon, but as of now Marth clearly has the advantage, and rightfully so.

 

[phi1ny3]

I have complaints. Seriously...Marth the 6th best characters? Olimar, Diddy > him imo and Wario is also better. Seriously the new list sucks even harder than the first one.

Are you kidding? Wario has bad grab release problems, and has certain "issues" like range that hurt a bit as well as bad matchups, and for Olimar, light weight is not too good, and the fact that his recovery is relatively meh is bad, topped with once again poor matchups.

ROB bumped down soooo low, lol.

 

[∫unk]

Marth doesn't have very impressive tournament results either bengals

I blame metaknight

 

[grandmaster192]

something tells me allot of you guys have no warios in your region.

he's a horrendously defensive character and rivals all the "fair spamming" characters like marf in terms of gimping.

his only weakness is priority in some of his air attacks and getting release grabbed. A defensive wario doesnt get grabbed...

I do, and though they're clearly not as good as DMG (The Wario you play against), they're still pretty solid Wario's. I think he's good, but not better than Marth like like gheb thinks. Marth's weaknesses just aren't as exploitable, and think that plays a big part in who's better. Plus, Marth have better match-ups overall. You guys ban stuff like DDD's infinite, for example, so that wouldn't matter for you guys. But if that's not banned, I don't see how anyone could put him above Marth.

 

[Remzi]

Marth doesn't have very impressive tournament results either bengals

I blame metaknight

He's usually in 5th or 6th place. I'm taking Ankoku's last list VERY lightly, it's simply not enough data to taken seriously. And even then he is way ahead of Olimar and only slightly below Diddy. Normally Marth is far ahead of both of them but I'm gonna wait for Ankoku's next list before I make any judgments.

 

[cman]

Marth doesn't have very impressive tournament results either bengals

I blame metaknight

In ankoku's list for the fall, since there are not nearly enough results to make the december one accurate, Marth was slightly ahead of wario in tournament placements, so I'm not sure what you are insinuating with that.

 

[∫unk]

i think mikehaze has been placing the best recently for marths :x

 

[~ Gheb ~]

and for Olimar, light weight is not too good, and the fact that his recovery is relatively meh is bad.

And where's the difference to Marth? Oh yeah Olimar camps better, has at least 3 safe KO moves, best projectile, at least 10 times better grabs, ...

@Bengals

You shouldn't care so much about my opinion anyways lol. I just don't think that Marth is doing well against the top tiers. Idk about the Falco vs Marth discussion but I know that Falco can cancel many of Marths moves by merely Jabbing. I really don't know how to explain it but if you fight an Olimar or a Diddy in tourney and competitive play they just soooo~ hard to play against no matter who you choose. Marth might be the same to some extent but an Olimar who camps at full speed, with broken grabs and who kills you lower than 120% ... it's just not the same. Marth has no unwinnable match-up but beating Olimar is disgustingly tough.
Marth is a good character without any big flaws but he isn't what he used to be. There's nothing about him that's "broken" the way he ued to be in Melee. His potential is limited, especially compared to Diddy and Olimar...Basically, he may have less weaknesses than Olimar and Diddy but they have many more strneghts to make up for them...

I still think he's underrated by a large margin and I'm sure he will end up at least in top7.

 

[Dark Ryu]

There's just more than top tier matchups going into account for the tier list.

While I do agree with you that Diddy does better against the top tier chars than Marth does, that isn't enough of a reason for Diddy to surpass Marth in the tier list.

Edit: In due time I think Diddy will surpass Marth though:]]]

 

[cman]

Idk about the Falco vs Marth discussion but I know that Falco can cancel many of Marths moves by merely Jabbing.

Huh? Like all of Marth's moves outrange it, iirc. So how?

I still think he's underrated by a large margin and I'm sure he will end up at least in top7.

What?? Marth is underrated, therefore he will end up lower than he is currently?? What bizzare world have i awoken in? Or are you talking about Olimar?

 

[Mazaloth]

I have complaints. Seriously...Marth the 6th best characters? Olimar, Diddy > him imo and Wario is also better. Seriously the new list sucks even harder than the first one.

Well, the thing is that even though Wario is a great camper with his smashes and decent aerials, he doesn't have the options that Marth has. Plus, We out-range all of his moves.

Diddy is good but, once again he has little range and while Diddy can rack up damage, a DS out of shield gimps his short range.

We can pivot grab Olimar and his Pikmen can be counted if stuck on Marth.

 

[grandmaster192]

Since when was Marth renowned for his gimping game? This isn't June bro.

And there is no priority in the air >_> It's just about whose hitboxes crosses the opponents hurtbox first.

This isn't exactly true. Aerials still have priority just not against other aerials. For example, a Meta Knight's glide attack will clank with a DDD's nair. Or MK's tornado can go through G&W bair, I think, but MK's fair can beat another MK's tornado.

Priority is still there, just not when it's aerial against aerial.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Look at that, we moved up a spot on the new list. Yay.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Let it be known. I savagely defended Marth's placement this time and tried my best to prove his worth.

I am satisfied with his placement.

Also oddly enough several members of the SBR wanted Marth above G&W. But match-up wise that really couldn't happen.

 

[Steel]

 

[Remzi]

You shouldn't care so much about my opinion anyways lol. I just don't think that Marth is doing well against the top tiers. Idk about the Falco vs Marth discussion but I know that Falco can cancel many of Marths moves by merely Jabbing. I really don't know how to explain it but if you fight an Olimar or a Diddy in tourney and competitive play they just soooo~ hard to play against no matter who you choose. Marth might be the same to some extent but an Olimar who camps at full speed, with broken grabs and who kills you lower than 120% ... it's just not the same. Marth has no unwinnable match-up but beating Olimar is disgustingly tough.
Marth is a good character without any big flaws but he isn't what he used to be. There's nothing about him that's "broken" the way he ued to be in Melee. His potential is limited, especially compared to Diddy and Olimar...Basically, he may have less weaknesses than Olimar and Diddy but they have many more strneghts to make up for them...

I still think he's underrated by a large margin and I'm sure he will end up at least in top7.

He does just as well against the tops as anyone in there besides Meta. He beats G&W, Falco, Diddy, and Olimar. He loses to D3, Snake, and Meta. I don't see where you're coming from here. Falco's jab will not stop a dtilt, it will not stop a jab, it will not stop a fair. Falco can't do anything as long as Marth is in his face with these attacks. I can't really argue with your personaly experience, so I'll just leave it at that. I think both characters you mentioned have astounding potential, but I've seen nothing thus far that leads me to believe that they are better characters than him.

I suppose you're right, your opinion is just that, your opinion. I'll leave you to think as you will.

Let it be known. I savagely defended Marth's placement this time and tried my best to prove his worth.

I am satisfied with his placement.

Also oddly enough several members of the SBR wanted Marth above G&W. But match-up wise that really couldn't happen.

About time, good job. I think GW is falling off tbh. He's just so predictable, people seem to be figuring him out. We'll be above him by June (when the next list comes out).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hahahaha.

Gimpyfish and Kyari gave me alot of back up. Ankoku too.

 

[Shaya]

If I recall correctly, I thought dancing blade had the same priority as Metaknight's sword?

i.e. gg Falco's jab.

People tend to forget that even if there is less emphasis on it now; Marth's dancing blade is an amazing move.

 

[Remzi]

If I recall correctly, I thought dancing blade had the same priority as Metaknight's sword?

i.e. gg Falco's jab.

People tend to forget that even if there is less emphasis on it now; Marth's dancing blade is an amazing move.

If they had the same priority they would clash, which they don't as far as I know. Still goes through falco's jab either way.

 

[Alterhalo]

Let it be known. I savagely defended Marth's placement this time and tried my best to prove his worth.

I am satisfied with his placement.

Also oddly enough several members of the SBR wanted Marth above G&W. But match-up wise that really couldn't happen.

Ggs I dont find GNW as a threat or maybe I haven't played any really good ones
Do any of you feel the same?

 

[Neb]

G&W is getting trampled. Its gonna take some elbow grease to pull him from his downhill plummet,
and step over the strengthening competition.

 

[illinialex24]

I have no complaints. Seems pretty right for Marth. Jigglypuff on the other hand. How could she fall below link. SBR must be crazy.

Hi Hylian, no I do not want another infraction today for saying this:

This tier list is terrible. Popularity contests always suck. Scrap this immediately.

How is that an infraction???? The new tier list was a popularity contest and I didn't swear. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.........

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

Dancing blade doesn't clash with anything that I know of. Doesn't it have that same transcended priority crap that almost all of MK's moves have?

 

[VietGeek]

Dancing blade doesn't clash with anything that I know of. Doesn't it have that same transcended priority crap that almost all of MK's moves have?

Dancing Blade 3rd hit down seems to clash with D3's Ftilt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DB can't slash with hitboxes. It is unable to interact with other hitboxes. Only hurtboxes.

 

[Remzi]

DB can't slash with hitboxes. It is unable to interact with other hitboxes. Only hurtboxes.

Why is that, are there any other moves that share this "property?"

 

[Steel]

Dancing blade has transcendent priority, similar to a lot of meta knight's moves. Also Ness's forward aerial for example.

 

[Hype]

If I recall correctly, I thought dancing blade had the same priority as Metaknight's sword?

i.e. gg Falco's jab.

People tend to forget that even if there is less emphasis on it now; Marth's dancing blade is an amazing move.

MK's moves don't clash, other than glide attack.

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

His Specials can clank with aerials and stuff, no? (Not that the aerials will likely win)
I seem to think that his DSmash can clank, but I'm probably mistaken.

 

[VietGeek]

So it seems all the other hits of DB have transcendent priority except for DB3D? Or what?

Example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJbJqRPVqNI

Skip to 2:55.

Oh yeah, I got *****. My tag is super honest. But ignore that. <_<

 

[feardragon64]

So it seems all the other hits of DB have transcendent priority except for DB3D? Or what?

Example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJbJqRPVqNI

Skip to 2:55.

Oh yeah, I got *****. My tag is super honest. But ignore that. <_<

I hate you Sakurai.

I hate you SO MUCH.

 

[Shaya]

DDB3 trips though.

And Im not certain until when, but it does for like ever; honest.

I guess only metaknights allowed moves with transcended priority that trip.

 

[Pr0phetic]

His Specials can clank with aerials and stuff, no? (Not that the aerials will likely win)
I seem to think that his DSmash can clank, but I'm probably mistaken.

I know his Drill Rush and Mach Tornado clank.

Oh, and after some sleep and some rethinking, the tier list is actually pretty good, I was buggin'.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

another reason marth is so high is because he's played more frequently by higher level players so he's gonna be considered better, if more smart players mained olimar chances are he'd be higher.

 

[ZHMT]

another reason marth is so high is because he's played more frequently by higher level players so he's gonna be considered better, if more smart players mained olimar chances are he'd be higher.

You gotta also take into account Marth is definitely not an easy character to place well with in large tournaments, so that's gonna effect his placement too. High level players will succeed with many characters as low level players will NOT be succeeding with Marth.

 

[∫unk]

another reason marth is so high is because he's played more frequently by higher level players so he's gonna be considered better, if more smart players mained olimar chances are he'd be higher.

Thi s

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

You gotta also take into account Marth is definitely not an easy character to place well with in large tournaments, so that's gonna effect his placement too. High level players will succeed with many characters as low level players will NOT be succeeding with Marth.

this is true however if Roy R Neo MikeHaze, Myself and Many other good marths consistenly place high then he's gonna be considered good