Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[cookieM0Nster]

As a ZSS main, I beg of you; PLEASE fix ZSS' Dsmash.

The point of the move isn't the stun itself, it's the release, when the opponent is popped into the air at a relatively predictable angle so as to be followed with a fair or uair at low damages and a bair at higher ones. The knockback varies drastically now based on character and percent, and from what I can tell from my matches, it can be Did quite effectively now. I almost KOd an opponent off the top of the stage with a move that's supposed to paralyze - a bit strange.

The Dsmash was intended to be Zamus' 'trump card'; she needs it to retain her very balanced position on the tierlist. Isn't it possible to increase/change the knockback of the move from vBrawl enough to allow fox to escape the chain, while keeping the trajectory and knockback constant enough to allow followups?

That is quite easy to do. All that needs to be done is to edit the growth of the Down Smash. And easy fix.

 

[BlueHurricane]

Hey, just wanted to say that this is an awesome project so far, I'm looking forward to how it turns out. Ike's new QD is just awesome, and the fact that Falco's CG is gone also makes things a lot better for me. Anyways, if anyone ever wants to play onlien, just say so.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

stuff about zamus dsmash

it's not supposed to be the same as before because this is not vBrawl

i feel like i should have an in depth analysis to this, but that also seems like too much

 

[Revven]

About Captain Falcon in general, we cannot restore melee Captain Falcon even if we wanted to. What some people may not realize is that Captain Falcon is barely changed from Melee in Brawl. The main change he has is that his knee now has a one frame sweetspot window, but in genreal his frame speeds and hitboxes are pretty similar to how they were in Melee. His style in that game just plain does not work in Brawl, and we can't make it work without making Brawl itself into a really different game. This isn't really a bad thing IMO; characters in Brawl are expected to be different from their Melee selves (Mr. Game & Watch and Ness don't mind!). Captain Falcon as he exists in Brawl is pretty bad, but he does have his high points and a style he pursues, and we want to focus on what he is and just make it good. It's not easy at all, and there is going to be a lot different just because of how bad he used to be and how polarized some of his matchups were (like Captain Falcon versus team disjointed). He's not just a "combo" character; he's also a high mobility low attack speed powerhouse, and I think that style can be made to work. We've definitely put and are continuing to put a lot of care into him, and I think the results are and will continue to be positive.

Of course you can't restore Melee Falcon. However, it would help if he could have some better aerial approaching options. The throws sound all good and well, jab > grab is a main part of his game. However, it is hard for Falcon to get inside most characters in Brawl that have priority over him and/or are way more defensive and campy. He has a hard time against projectiles as well as ranged people (ranged has always been a weakness for him, but, projectiles... not so much of a major weakness because he could actually get by them with his speed). Unfortunately, Nair isn't his best aerial approach, and it really should be. It's the only move of his besides Dair and Fair that had a changed hitbox in which Sakurai intentionally nerfed it so the hitboxes for both kicks are only out for 2 frames, that's why it's such a bad move now (and only the first kick of it is ever really used).

I'm just gonna say that you should look at his Nair, fix his Dair's KB so it's actually a meteor worth using, and that would be it for his aerials. You don't even have to fix Fair. Just Nair and Dair... and while I'm not a seasoned Falcon main in Brawl, I used him for months (although only in friendlies). I still feel he deserves a good aerial approach, Nair just isn't doing its job right now.

So take a gander at it.

 

[shanus]

Falcons brawl nair has the hitbox properties (as in hitbox durations) of ganon's nair in melee.

And trust me, that isn't pretty.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol my attention is towards the ban of mk atm once it's finished i'll come back xD

 

[Linkshot]

You mean the "scrubs want easy way out" poll.

Anyway, BKB on dSmash should be put back to normal. KBG heightened.

 

[Eyada]

Instead of debating banning Meta Knight, everyone should just play BBrawl.

With Project SA (Plan Zero? Whatever it's officially called) and the Throw Mods, it seems like it might (hopefully?) be possible to finish the most important parts of the "wishlist" --namely, the character modifications-- and arrive at a very satisfactory Final release. Are you guys looking into using Project SA for this, AA/Thinkaman?

-Throw modification (would fix Ice Climbers and be useful on a lot of characters) (Check. Thanks PK.)
-Ledgestalling tweak (all ledgegrabs are limited to 7 times, like Ike's Aether) (Possible with Project SA?)
-Stage hazard modification (would make several stages, such as Flat Zone 2 and Port Town Aero Dive, easy counterpicks)
-Rumble Falls no "speed up"
-WarioWare tweaked prize mechanics (always 4% healing), would stay true to design and be fair
-Better stage select mechanics (so WiFi Training Room can be picked in training and WiFi and Hanenbow can be picked in versus)
-General water mechanics tweaks (being able to set drowning to be percentage independent and have a duration similar to some middle percentage would be ideal) (Perhaps possible with SA? Not really sure.)
-A fix for Meta Knight's infinite Dimensional Cape bug and Sheik's chain glitch (Seems possible.)
-A code to apply super armor to arbitrary frames of arbitrary moves (it was something we considered at several points for some of the slow characters) (I believe SA can do this?)
-Any codes that reduce or eliminate controller port dependencies
-Any codes to speed up character transformation time (presumably by exploiting the other two character slots in a 1v1) (Possibly? Not really sure.)

 

[Eldiran]

Instead of debating banning Meta Knight, everyone should just play BBrawl.

I concur!

With Project SA (Plan Zero? Whatever it's officially called) and the Throw Mods, it seems like it might (hopefully?) be possible to finish the most important parts of the "wishlist" --the character modifications-- and arrive at a very satisfactory Final release. Are you guys looking into using Project SA for this, AA/Thinkaman?

Sounds like an excellent idea -- however, if SA doesn't add anything that the codes can't already do, then I would prefer codes.

Come to think of it... I wonder how the codes and SA interact, if you use both at once? Now I'm curious.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Any chance of PAL support?

 

[NintenJoe]

When's the official version due for release?

 

[Thinkaman]

We'll still working guys. Ampharos is busy the rest of this week and I'm distracted with Motion Plus programming tomfoolery, but the march goes on. I've read all the comments, and sorry if I don't have time to address them yet.

 

[Rinku リンク]

So much better than brawl + !!!

 

[Deleted member]

no brawl+ and BBrawl comparisons allowed, in any form or way.

 

[Steeler]

the throw modifiers are implemented flawlessly

 

[JOE!]

nobody gets to make brawl+ and BBrawl comparisons! no way, no how!

 

[bleyva]

no brawl+ and BBrawl comparisons allowed, in any form or way.

yeah there really is no point in comparisons, since its pretty obvious which one is better

 

[Thinkaman]

Back on topic to cover one thing real fast, about the ZSS d-smash: What behavior is drastically different? Obviously if something is changed in a way it isn't supposed to be, I want to know about it. I tested the change on the usual set of characters (Bowser, Jigglypuff, Fox, DDD, might have skipped Luigi for this one but did Wolf instead) at various levels of damage. Is there something like an important followup that is no longer guaranteed by some small margin?

 

[Linkshot]

I think that's what they said.

 

[Crescens]

A bair or a DownB used to be guaranteed while the opponent popped into the air out of the stun animation. The opponent, whether at 0% or 200% would pop up the perfect height(very floatily, too) for a flipspike or SH dair. DI doesn't allow one to escape. You used to be able to do this by reactions; once you see the stun ending, you can quickly input your move. as you know exactly where your opponent will end up.

I just did some testing in Bbrawl on ROB; for some reason, you can now DI the release animation of the Dsmash. This used to be impossible (or so minimal it didn't make a difference). The opponent can now easily DI his way out of what used to be a guaranteed followup. This drastically reduced ZSS' KO potential, especially at higher damages, and at lower damages, turns what used to be a guaranteed off-stage spike to an unreliable on-stage spike (AKA useless).

Also, how much can you lower the KBG without rendering Fox useless? Right now, it gets more difficult to get followups at high percents. If the DI issue was fixed, it should still be a guaranteed followup, but it would be harder. Might as well keep the KBG as low as possible.

You can see some examples of the guaranteed bair here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FLq2Kl4jH0&feature=channel_page
Go to 3:40, and there are many examples. You can ignore the Dsmash -> UpB combo; it's techable by competent opponents. But notice how he ends each combo; the opponent pops into the air, and he jumps up with them for a guaranteed bair. In Bbrawl, these would not have been guaranteed if the opponent was to DI + SDI away from ZSS, especially at higher percentages.

While I was at it, I tested ZSS' 0-death infinite on ROB. Stun>Footstool>Dair or DownB>repeat - it's still in. It might be necessary to modify footstool properties to fix this though, which I'm presuming is difficult.

 

[Thinkaman]

I will look into this first-hand, probably today.

 

[Remzi]

This is really cool, just tried it out. Unfortunately, I probably won't be playing it at all really, since it can't ever become widespread.

 

[Steeler]

This is really cool, just tried it out. Unfortunately, I probably won't be playing it at all really, since it can't ever become widespread.

it won't with that attitude i can't blame ya, bengals fans are pretty pessimistic...

also i suggest adding a cool little elemental effect or something to charizard's initial dash frames

so that when he dash dances

it looks like dragon dance

RAWR

 

[Remzi]

it won't with that attitude i can't blame ya, bengals fans are pretty pessimistic...

also i suggest adding a cool little elemental effect or something to charizard's initial dash frames

so that when he dash dances

it looks like dragon dance

RAWR

lmao, i'll admit i got fried there

 

[Linkshot]

I agree with 0 or 10 KBG and high BKB on Zamus dSmash *second's Zamus*

Aren't footstools techrollable? I'm pretty the ROB boards were all "oh lol we can tech" about 20 minutes after discovery.

Zamus can do this on another character, but I forget who.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you cannot tech a footstool lol, its why pikachus uair/footstool qal combo is so lethal

 

[Scipion121212]

you cannot tech a footstool lol, its why pikachus uair/footstool qal combo is so lethal

but BBrawl repairst silly footstool combos, no? when you fall on ground footstooled, you, instead of laying, are standing with no lag.. no?

 

[Meru.]

When will a PAL version be released? I'd like to play too.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What Yaaay said; I would love PAL.

 

[TreK]

What BPC said

peer pressure ?

Nor that worried about it, I just HOPE project SA will not "forget" europe exists =/

 

[Eldiran]

What BPC said

peer pressure ?

Nor that worried about it, I just HOPE project SA will not "forget" europe exists =/

If BBrawl begins to use Project SA, and the File Patch Code 3.5.1 gets ported, then most all character-balancing aspects of BBrawl should work fine for everyone.

 

[Steeler]

in bbrawl you can hold shield to land with your shield up if you are footstooled

i have bbrawl's new slogan:

don't ban mk, balance him! (and the rest of the game)

 

[Thinkaman]

Lol steeler, I think the phrase I'm looking for is "politically polarizing".

 

[Revven]

If BBrawl begins to use Project SA, and the File Patch Code 3.5.1 gets ported, then most all character-balancing aspects of BBrawl should work fine for everyone.

File Replacement 2.1a is all you need to use the character files and the character files are region free just like textures are so Europe should be fine if the Patch code never gets ported quick enough.

 

[Crescens]

in bbrawl you can hold shield to land with your shield up if you are footstooled[/SIZE]

Unfortunately, this won't work against ZSS' infinite. Footstooling doesn't cancel the stun animation like an attack does, so ROB is still stuck in the stun animation, even after the footstool; he can't shield. Footstooling puts the opponent on the ground, which is what allows ZSS to re-stun ROB even though the first stun hasn't yet ended.

 

[Mit]

I personally think all the effects of footstooling should remain, and characters with infinite combos involving footstools should be edited on an individual basis to remove them.

If you get footstooled by someone normally though, and it allows them to lead into a little 2-hit combo, I see no reason why we should stop it.

 

[Scipion121212]

I personally think all the effects of footstooling should remain, and characters with infinite combos involving footstools should be edited on an individual basis to remove them.

If you get footstooled by someone normally though, and it allows them to lead into a little 2-hit combo, I see no reason why we should stop it.

If you get footstooled by someone, it isn´t going to be 2 hit combo, either 0-to-death (on a little higher %/ROB) or 0-to-alot (jab lock). As jab lock is removed anyway, I dont see reason to give Falcon 1 frame bigger lag on Nair if removing the footstool effect would have same effect, but Falcon wouldnt lose combos.
Note that many footstool combos still work (marth aerial footstool-Dair or DKs ground footstool-sideB

 

[Mit]

If you get footstooled by someone, it isn´t going to be 2 hit combo, either 0-to-death (on a little higher %/ROB) or 0-to-alot (jab lock).

Wat. What if I am playing a character with no jab locks or footstool combos, unless you're only talking about ROB getting footstooled? Because anyone can footstool someone then hit him after they bounce off the ground, but everyone can't lead it into some major combo or lock. However, since you brought up Falcon I'm guessing you mean ROB getting footstooled, because the only lock Falcon has is like a 3-hit ftilt lock that isn't a big deal.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm back and boy this has been dead lately... I was hoping to come back to more.

Anyway, ZSS on R.O.B. infinite doesn't work in Bbrawl at all. I'm very, very sure of this unless somehow a critical code got left out (which I don't think is true) since I specifically designed and tested for this case. Aerial footstool slamming you into the ground (which is, mechanics wise, how the infinite worked) now just results in you doing the hard landing animation (which is what happens when you land out of a fastfall, very quick animation). In general, getting footstooled isn't a big deal in Bbrawl; my analysis (which I believe to be fair) is that nothing good came out of those long footstool combos and that the game is just plain better without them. I think some short combos will still exist though (anything that's a combo that doesn't rely on them slamming into the ground), but those are very fair and probably add a little to the game so that works out well.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

This looks like good stuff Amazing Ampharos. It answers what I truly want out of competitive Smash, unlike Brawl+.