Almas, you deserve some sort of mention for sure, since a few of your posts were invaluable when we were first starting months ago. If you didn't want credit for that code, I'd still arbitrarily credit you for something like Hitbox Collection. 
-
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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
Scipion121212
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2009
- Messages
- 99
Sorry for this probably not too long raised question (I really don´t have much time right now) but will genesis update work on PAL version? ´don´t kill me pls
´don´t kill me pls
I think Sonic needs some more buffs. In the match-up chart he is among the bottom in overall math-up listings. Against G&W and Marth he still has a lot of trouble and the up b change doesn't really affect those two that much. He needs more damage buffs and he could probably use a Usmash buff. His Usmash is his best priority attack (I think he has invincibility frames on it) but it is very easy to DI out of it. I think his side b also has some invincibility frames so it could also use a damage buff (with knockback compensation to preserve its combo ability). I'm not a Sonic main so I don't really know the match-ups but I would imagine they would approve of buffs to their highest priority moves to help against Marth and G&W. I think Sonic in general needs more buffs to shift his overall match-ups towards a nice 50-50 average especially considering how much better some of the other characters in low tier have gotten (not that Sonic is low tier). Sonic just seems to be the worst character in Balanced Brawl currently IMO.
Mit
Smash Ace
Triple jump glitch is still in this. I experienced it with Mario the other day. That reeeeally needs to go in the next update.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I honestly don't think it does. It's really my only defense when a good Marth wants to plank the ledge.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
That statement makes no sense.
Good marths don't plank because Marth's ledge game is crap (compared to his amazing anti-ledge game of course), and it can be ledge-hogged, and when it's ledge-hogged it can be punished, HARD. Bowsers is much better, but even then, he doesn't have the ledge game to make use of it.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
That statement is SOOO true. Marth's ledge game offstage is crap.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Alex! It's been too long since I've seen you!
GwJ
Smash Hero
I miss you so; seems like it's been forever since you've been gone!
Mit
Smash Ace
Does anyone know how the reception was for this at Genesis? IIRC it was playable for fun there, right? I'm interested in seeing if it really garnered interest amongst all the competitive players. BBrawl seems like it caters to that audience well (and hopefully that's true, they're the audience you want to captivate if you want your mod to really go somewhere).
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
basically, they needed every setup to get genesis done in time, and i was unable to set it up
JOE!
Smash Hero
basically, they needed every setup to get genesis done in time, and i was unable to set it up
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
I dunno, I do fine with Marth on the ledge. I agree that good Marth's don't plank and avoid the ledge when possible though.
Sonic getting a Usmash buff would indeed help him vs. Marth.
Sonic getting a Usmash buff would indeed help him vs. Marth.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
A lot of people debate on Marth's ledge game. Some people swear by it; others think it's terrible.
Ganon:
“Unable to punish Ganon out of Up-B” - What exactly was changed here?
Also; Does Wizkick go through Metaknight ftilts and fairs?
Samus:
This is just so much better than it used to be; the change to ftilt makes such a profound difference in some of her weaker matchups. She still has a hard time against some characters with quick and powerful jabs/throws, but it's much better than it was before.
If anything, I would add a minimal amount of hitstun/knockback for the first hit of the jab. Currently, many characters will simply shield the second hit and grab/jab, or grab/jab before it comes out. Unsurprisingly, it's the characters with good grabs and jabs that cause Samus the most problems. A marginal hitstun increase to the first hit of the jab would give her an extra edge in her problem matchups, while having minimal impact in her strong matchups.
With this one change, I think Samus would be perfect. Making it more difficult to SDI out of her Up Smash would be nice, but really wouldn't make a big difference.
Falcon:
I don't like the dtilt change. Landing it is difficult, and the extra lag makes it quite punishable.
You could get the same effect by adding the trip effect to a down angled ftilt instead. Samus' already has a chance of doing this, and it proves to be quite effective. The Dtilt could revert to what it was, popping opponents into the air to set up a potential uair or nair. Putting the trip on a down angled ftilt would give it much more use than it's getting on the dtilt. This way, you could also stick to your goal of limiting frame modifications.
If you would like feedback for other characters, let me know.
“Unable to punish Ganon out of Up-B” - What exactly was changed here?
Also; Does Wizkick go through Metaknight ftilts and fairs?
Samus:
This is just so much better than it used to be; the change to ftilt makes such a profound difference in some of her weaker matchups. She still has a hard time against some characters with quick and powerful jabs/throws, but it's much better than it was before.
If anything, I would add a minimal amount of hitstun/knockback for the first hit of the jab. Currently, many characters will simply shield the second hit and grab/jab, or grab/jab before it comes out. Unsurprisingly, it's the characters with good grabs and jabs that cause Samus the most problems. A marginal hitstun increase to the first hit of the jab would give her an extra edge in her problem matchups, while having minimal impact in her strong matchups.
With this one change, I think Samus would be perfect. Making it more difficult to SDI out of her Up Smash would be nice, but really wouldn't make a big difference.
Falcon:
I don't like the dtilt change. Landing it is difficult, and the extra lag makes it quite punishable.
You could get the same effect by adding the trip effect to a down angled ftilt instead. Samus' already has a chance of doing this, and it proves to be quite effective. The Dtilt could revert to what it was, popping opponents into the air to set up a potential uair or nair. Putting the trip on a down angled ftilt would give it much more use than it's getting on the dtilt. This way, you could also stick to your goal of limiting frame modifications.
If you would like feedback for other characters, let me know.
blakinola
Constantly Delicious
Overall, I would like to see an increase in the viability of teching, as it is next to useless in vBrawl. You get punished too easily, and it's not like you recover any faster. If you make teching similar to the way it is in Brawl+, it would increase some mobility options for characters who are lucky enough to find the floor or a wall in a stage.
Just my 2 cents, does anyone agree/disagree?
Just my 2 cents, does anyone agree/disagree?
Eldiran
Smash Lord
Unfortunately that is a very sweeping change that goes against BBrawl's principles. I am certainly intrigued by the idea of more effective teching, but to be honest I disagree with you that it is useless.
Teching is only useless when you tech off the floor and do not roll. Teching off walls is quite useful and in no need of improvement, whereas tech-rolling (don't know the technical term?) is situational, but still useful. Tech-rolling, for example, can often be used to escape follow ups from grabs, not to mention that it can sometimes just be used for extra mobility. It is situational however, which is certainly different from 64 and Melee, but not necessarily detrimental.
All uses of teching are extremely useful against Mr. Game & Watch's down throw anyway (as a G&W player who would have a broken move if not for teching, I find such claims odd); in general, in-place teching isn't fast, but it has good invincibility (though techrolling is indeed usually better). I'm not convinced it's bad at all in Brawl; it's just something you only want to do sometimes. Decision making is good design.
Regardless, the point remains that it is indeed one of those basic physics things we are committed to not changing.
Regardless, the point remains that it is indeed one of those basic physics things we are committed to not changing.
Mit
Smash Ace
As of now I somewhat agree with this. I haven't made too much effort as of now to use the move much, but even when I get it to connect, what am I supposed to do? Try and chase/predict what they're gonna do for their standup and punish it? Doesn't seem entirely worth it, especially when the risk behind the move is pretty high. Before it was a somewhat reliable move I could use when ducking attacks and in other situations, now it's just something I don't bother with much. I like the idea of moving tripping to the down angled ftilt (or atleast making it a chance thing), and perhaps returning dtilt to have it's original effect, maybe with something like an angle change (something like a 100 degree angle could be neat).
Also, sucks that BBrawl couldn't get setup at Genesis. You should've brought your own setup and set it up outside the venue or something
Slash moves are moves that can clank with other slash moves, am I right ?
It could be a good idea to give in example luigi a slash move since his worst matchups are usually sworded oponent. Oh, not his whole moveset, as it would denature him, and make him **** TL in example, just a single move that would be a tool so he's not helpless. That is, if he turns out to still need it. Cus his two buffs are well thought already.
And Marth/MK don't only **** Luigi anyway. I mention him because he's my main and I know him. It could be a good buff on another character that I don't know of. Putting it out there cus I'm bored.
It could be a good idea to give in example luigi a slash move since his worst matchups are usually sworded oponent. Oh, not his whole moveset, as it would denature him, and make him **** TL in example, just a single move that would be a tool so he's not helpless. That is, if he turns out to still need it. Cus his two buffs are well thought already.
And Marth/MK don't only **** Luigi anyway. I mention him because he's my main and I know him. It could be a good buff on another character that I don't know of. Putting it out there cus I'm bored.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
i flew in so i couldnt bring a tv, otherwise thats exactly what i would have done. when i registered they took my wii and i didnt find it till that night lol
Renegade TX2000
Smash Ace
sucks to be you... that's what happens when you don't take control of your things regardless OF WHAT they say.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
Next release will be the first official build of BBrawl. Apparently, we shouldn't expect any changes after this next release unless something substantial comes up, which I assume means stuff like getting data on stages that they can tweak.
I don't want to rush them for this, but I'm really anxious to try out the "final" version.
I don't want to rush them for this, but I'm really anxious to try out the "final" version.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I'd consider "substantial" as "OMG BROKEN 100:0"
Adapt
Smash Lord
Here is some feedback from a smashfest we had last weekend: (genesis update version)
*Ganon still sucks, but he is more fun to play
*Link's arrows are awesome... but he is still held back by garbage recovery
*You can tech between the hits of TL's Dsmash. I don't remember being able to do that before
*ZSS the stun time is nice, dtilt might actually be a hindrance because it doesn't string hits as well
*Ike's recovery is a great improvement, he is playable now
*Ivysaur is much better, but she can pseudo-stall with her up-B now. The damage buffs helped her a lot
*Sonic's spring is now almost OP against those with weak recoveries and according to one person, he is broken in FFA
*we didn't notice any substantial difference with Captain Falcon. The dtilt trip is basically useless
*Shiek feels a lot more like she did in Melee. (this I found interesting)
*Yoshi seemed largely unchanged, but the Egg Roll was nice.
*Ganon still sucks, but he is more fun to play
*Link's arrows are awesome... but he is still held back by garbage recovery
*You can tech between the hits of TL's Dsmash. I don't remember being able to do that before
*ZSS the stun time is nice, dtilt might actually be a hindrance because it doesn't string hits as well
*Ike's recovery is a great improvement, he is playable now
*Ivysaur is much better, but she can pseudo-stall with her up-B now. The damage buffs helped her a lot
*Sonic's spring is now almost OP against those with weak recoveries and according to one person, he is broken in FFA
*we didn't notice any substantial difference with Captain Falcon. The dtilt trip is basically useless
*Shiek feels a lot more like she did in Melee. (this I found interesting)
*Yoshi seemed largely unchanged, but the Egg Roll was nice.
Anomilus
Smash Lord
You know I do have to admit...
Pre-Genesis Update Yoshi felt just a little better than what he is now. I know that knockback gained from Yoshi's damage buffs apparently "hurt" his damage building game, but I think I was doing better with him when there wasn't a compensation.
Then again it could be me. I'd have to try the previous version again (if the codeset still exists anywhere). But who knows... Maybe that slight increase in knockback made my hit and run tactics a bit more effective. I never do try to stay in too long with Yoshi...
Pre-Genesis Update Yoshi felt just a little better than what he is now. I know that knockback gained from Yoshi's damage buffs apparently "hurt" his damage building game, but I think I was doing better with him when there wasn't a compensation.
Then again it could be me. I'd have to try the previous version again (if the codeset still exists anywhere). But who knows... Maybe that slight increase in knockback made my hit and run tactics a bit more effective. I never do try to stay in too long with Yoshi...
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Not necessarily, incremental balance edits are good. Think Starcraft.
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
That's on your playstyle, the character is fine, stay inside and force/bait actions. If they shield you have a fast tether, as well as an air grab. If they dodge, he has enough multi hits and sex hits to punish that.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
...Since when does Yoshi have a tether OR air grab? And since was there a character that had both?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
As in tether grab. Air grab is neutral b.
It's a tether because of the disjoint, air grab is air grab because it goes through shield.
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
^ This, yoshi blatantly has both. Anything that can hit snake's cypher mid-air and cause him to fall to his death is an air grab, koopa claw, chomp, and egg lay all come to mind.
Link's recovery, implementation wise, isn't really changeable. Our initial plan was to let him tether after his up special, but when that proved impossible we decided to just balance him around having a terrible recovery. Melee Falco did teach us that your recovery can be uselessly bad and you can still be great. Honestly, as Link stands, I think he might be broken if he has a good recovery. I will give the tactical advice with Link; he's like Olimar, Snake, and Ice Climbers in one big way. Don't jump. He's so much scarier once you stop jumping (other than very safe distance shorthops to throw out tether attack; using that a lot is okay).
Ivysaur can indeed kinda stall with Vine Whip, but it's not as bad as what Jigglypuff can do and should terminate quickly enough. It doesn't protect you at all either so the only places you can really try it tend to be places where 1-2 of them have you practically dead.
We'll definitely look into Toon Link's dsmash; being able to tech out of it would be pretty awful to say the least. It's a pretty hard move to work with since it's not "glitchy" in standard Brawl. The first hit is just really powerful with base knockback to guarantee it leads into the second hit, but on slopes or with certain DI you can avoid the second hit resulting in something quite undesirable.
With ZSS, did you notice that her Paralyzer Shot now gives her a free grab even uncharged (barely though so you may have to anticipate landing hit)? That should be pretty fun.
About air grabs (which we considered when balancing and are definitely something notable), for the curious, here's a full list:
Bowser Suplex
Diddy Kong Monkey Flip
Yoshi Egg Lay
Wario Bite
Ganondorf Flame Choke
Ganondorf Dark Dive
Kirby Inhale
Kirby Egg Lay (Yoshi power)
Kirby Bite (Wario power)
Kirby Inhale (King Dedede power)
King Dedede Inhale
Captain Falcon Falcon Dive
Lucario Force Palm (incidentally not actually an air grab but a special one anyway)
This is, incidentally, also a full list of all special grabs. Having moves like this is instantly very useful to everyone who does.
Lastly, about incremental balance, while we agree on principle, we lack something major things Starcraft has. We have less of a guarantee of a dedicated fanbase, less isolation from the public, and a far inferior data gathering system. All of that makes short term incremental balance changes harder. Also, we want to really see a version of this stabilize in terms of metagame. That means at least several months of play on a single version, and it means players being forced to look within what's already there when they have trouble with assorted things since they can't expect a quick new version that may render their concerns obsolete. Like, if you run into a bad matchup, you have to try to develop counter tactics; that sort of thing is something that very frequent new versions could very much undermine.
Also, I'm not convinced a long release cycle per version even slows down our approach to the limits of balance anyway. Sure, we might put out less, but you can be guaranteed that the version we put out 4-6 months later is going to be very well thought out and carefully implemented.
As per what I meant about something big, I mean something being discovered that is game breaking (like an infinite) or some new code resource coming along that is just too good to pass up. I should hope the former isn't an issue, and as per the latter, we can only wait and see.
Ivysaur can indeed kinda stall with Vine Whip, but it's not as bad as what Jigglypuff can do and should terminate quickly enough. It doesn't protect you at all either so the only places you can really try it tend to be places where 1-2 of them have you practically dead.
We'll definitely look into Toon Link's dsmash; being able to tech out of it would be pretty awful to say the least. It's a pretty hard move to work with since it's not "glitchy" in standard Brawl. The first hit is just really powerful with base knockback to guarantee it leads into the second hit, but on slopes or with certain DI you can avoid the second hit resulting in something quite undesirable.
With ZSS, did you notice that her Paralyzer Shot now gives her a free grab even uncharged (barely though so you may have to anticipate landing hit)? That should be pretty fun.
About air grabs (which we considered when balancing and are definitely something notable), for the curious, here's a full list:
Bowser Suplex
Diddy Kong Monkey Flip
Yoshi Egg Lay
Wario Bite
Ganondorf Flame Choke
Ganondorf Dark Dive
Kirby Inhale
Kirby Egg Lay (Yoshi power)
Kirby Bite (Wario power)
Kirby Inhale (King Dedede power)
King Dedede Inhale
Captain Falcon Falcon Dive
Lucario Force Palm (incidentally not actually an air grab but a special one anyway)
This is, incidentally, also a full list of all special grabs. Having moves like this is instantly very useful to everyone who does.
Lastly, about incremental balance, while we agree on principle, we lack something major things Starcraft has. We have less of a guarantee of a dedicated fanbase, less isolation from the public, and a far inferior data gathering system. All of that makes short term incremental balance changes harder. Also, we want to really see a version of this stabilize in terms of metagame. That means at least several months of play on a single version, and it means players being forced to look within what's already there when they have trouble with assorted things since they can't expect a quick new version that may render their concerns obsolete. Like, if you run into a bad matchup, you have to try to develop counter tactics; that sort of thing is something that very frequent new versions could very much undermine.
Also, I'm not convinced a long release cycle per version even slows down our approach to the limits of balance anyway. Sure, we might put out less, but you can be guaranteed that the version we put out 4-6 months later is going to be very well thought out and carefully implemented.
As per what I meant about something big, I mean something being discovered that is game breaking (like an infinite) or some new code resource coming along that is just too good to pass up. I should hope the former isn't an issue, and as per the latter, we can only wait and see.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Just a fact: Lucario's Force Palm can't grab in midair, and Bowser's Side-B is called Flying Slam.
jackharvest
Smash Apprentice
Absolutely love this. I finally ran into a tutorial for using the Snapshot hack, and I currently run the following:
NTSC - No gecko OS.
USB Coverfloader (Uses Ocarina to access SD codes)
Every Character Texture Hacked (This .gct also includes the snapshot forwarding hack)
BBrawl (within the Snapshot Method for getting past the 256-line code limit.)
Just thought I'd let those without gecko OS (since nobody mentions using these different versions of brawl without it) that there's hope, and that you can easily join the fun too! :D
NTSC - No gecko OS.
USB Coverfloader (Uses Ocarina to access SD codes)
Every Character Texture Hacked (This .gct also includes the snapshot forwarding hack)
BBrawl (within the Snapshot Method for getting past the 256-line code limit.)
Just thought I'd let those without gecko OS (since nobody mentions using these different versions of brawl without it) that there's hope, and that you can easily join the fun too! :D
Eldiran
Smash Lord
By "without Gecko OS" do you mean "without the homebrew channel"? Because the latter is a momentous step. If so, please to be linking the tutorial!
DominusHaven
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2008
- Messages
- 74
"Which matchups in specific does Pit struggle like this in, and is the trouble in those matchups overall preserved in Bbrawl?
I'm not discounting you, merely requesting more information."
I apologize for not replying to this sooner, I haven't been able to get on and check for awhile but I am back and I will give some information now.
Alright here are Pit's worst matchups (All 6:4 in his opponent's favor and above)
Meta Knight 60:40- This is definitely one of Pit's harder matchups, I would say it was his hardest overall if it wasn't for the fact that MK is a very overused character that we have learned to fight. Pit cannot approach MK for the most part, he is slower, he deals less damage, only a very few niche techniques can really be used to break the tornado, the Shuttle loop can stop many of your approaches, if you don't watch out you can even be gimped quite easily. a Smart Pit user would use his arrows wise, making sure he can hit MK or lure him into weakness. A charged F-Smash can break the beginning of the tornado, and D-tilt can break through it when its in it's beginning frames, D-air and an arrow from above can also pierce the tornado from the Top. Pit on the ground relies on a few grab combos he has on MK (F-throw to stutter step F-smash (works at 0%), D-throw to U-air (works up until 30%), F-Throw to Dash attack (works until about 35%), etc.). U-air can counter some of MK's aerial game, using fast attacks and being weary to make sure MK cannot really cause damage on the inside is the real important part of this matchup. a Tornado abusing MK is really hard to counter as well, so you have to be weary as well. My main problem with this matchup is that MK can kill you in so many ways, while I can only find a few ways to kill him, and not even really fast unless it's a good set-up. Some things that would make the matchup easier for me would be D-Smash and D-air definitely having a bit more knockback, having a +1 damage increase on D-tilt maybe, and adding a bit more knockback on the Dash attack. Making the N-air harder to DI out of would make approaching/punishing with that attack a LOT more useful for this predicament, as it is usually a good move to counter with, but since it's easy to DI/get away from, it's not really efficient. Also Meta Knight's Tornado being Toned down and his Shuttle loop and Down smash being weaker as well makes life a lot easier already on top of these few things.. I think with the changes it would be even.
Game and Watch 65:35: Pit's worst matchup, Pit can only do but so much against G&W, G&W outprioritizes him, ***** him in the air, can keep him in the air with his U-air, kills Pit really early, can counter most of Pit's aerial approaches with grabs or OOS aerials if done right, but it is another matchup that can be overcomed with knowledge. Pit can jab to outspeed some of G&W's attempts, F-air spam to space from G&W, D-air through N-air which causes a collision in your favor, jab cancel into a grabs which can lead into set ups, and kill early with B-air's and F-Smashes that you have to preserve in this matchup. it's a lot less detailed than the MK matchup, but it is definitely just as hard. A few things I would recommend for this matchup would be the things I listed above really, more knockback on D-Smash and D-air, two moves I use a lot in the matchup. Luckily F-air has increased damage output already which makes things a bit easier on that end. If Pit could kill Game and Watch as early as G&W kills him, it would still be in Game and Watch's favor but it would sure as hell be a LOT easier.
Falco 60:40: I'll admit I don't have much of a problem with this matchup unless I fight Zen's falco really.. But I already know all the details about what makes this in Falco's favor. Falco can outcamp you, make your arrows a lot less useful with his amazing reflector, can CG you to 60 easy percent, Gimp you quite easily if done right, and with limited approaches and oppurtunities, this matchup can be really annoying and takes a lot of patience. Falco no longer having a CG in Bbrawl makes things a lot more standable, and actually makes this matchup a lot easier.. and with the updates Pit can get, this matchup is actually as good as even now. Pit having a bit more killing power and damage rackup would easily make it fair that Falco can so easily outcamp you. I honestly think this matchup has been fixed a lot already in a sense.
Olimar 60:40: In my own personal opinion, my least favorite matchup. Olimar can camp as well as Pit, if not better, outranges Pit, can stop many of your approaches with his insane grab range, is really hard to approach due to his small size and amazing range, can kill you really early, outprioritizes you, and you cannot even ledge camp well against him because his pikmin block your arrows, and his grabs if done right can grab you off the ledge. Your only advantages are the fact that you beat him air-wise, you can juggle him easily, and if done right you can gimp him as well. A move that seems to be useful in this matchup is N-air, and with the slight boosts I mentioned before, I believe that it could help. the Killing power increase that I also want to suggest would make his killing power look a lot less threatening in the big picture. The slight boosts would make Olimar a lot less threatening in the eyes of Pit users.
Wario 60:40: Obnoxious, unpredictable and with amazing air movement, Wario is definitely a pain for Pit. He Lives sooo long, He can kill you soo early, he can approach Pit soo easily with D-air's and his amazing air movement, You spend most of your match blocking which ends up being broken easily by your sheild becoming smaller, or by him easily approaching you and grabbing you. He deals damage as fast as you with his amazing approaches and attacks, and kills you a lot earlier. His farting move is also unpredictable and is the biggest pain in the neck for me, being able to gimp you offstage and onstage, or kill you at very low percentages. N-air is amazing against Wario, So the slight boost would make it even more useful against him! And more killing power? Pit would be a LOT less threatened by Wario, I really don't even have too much problem with this matchup already so I could definitely see it turn even.
Marth 60:40- He's... very annoying to fight if in the right hands. Marth outranges you, you have no real approaches against a good one, he racks up damage faster, his fast aerial speed can cause you problems when recovering, Tippers can really cause a lot of annoyances, a well spaced Marth can be impossible to really get at without gaining a huge amount of percentage yourself. You can't do many approaches unless he does one of his smash attacks or one of his few laggy moves, you spend most of your match punishing, arrow shooting, and because of his mediocre recovery, gimping. Speaking of recovery, Marth is like meta knight in the fact that he can break through quite a few of your attacks with his invincibility frame Dolphin slash. Like other matchups, killing power would make this a lot easier... Pit can kill Marth easily in some instances, but he can do a lot more damage than you, plus he can also kill you quite early, so being able to kill him earlier would make things less stressful.. Pit having more damage causing potential would make more moves more useful against him as well.. This would definitely make the matchup near even/even I believe.
These are some of the matchups and how I believe that a few more enhancements can fix them.. I think Balanced Brawl really helps with some of the matchups already, and that with a few more modifications that Pit would really be balanced and much more viable as a character. I just looked through the list of things that I think would make the matchup fair, and for convenience I will put them in a list so you may refresh your mind onto what I am asking for, and if it is worth adding.
Things Haven is asking to be buffed in Bbrawl
N-air is harder to DI out of/sucks you in a bit more (Not like the Tornado did in regular brawl, but enough that it can hit you with a decent potion of the hits)
D-Air and D-Smash gain more knockback (D-air I think should be able to kill 10-15% earlier then it does now, and D-Smash should be closer to MK's D-Smash strength, maybe even a bit stronger since it is slower)
Dash attack gains more strength- (Dash attack with Good DI I think kills MK at 140% with good DI... I think it should be able to kill 125%-130% against a Good DI'ing MK, I think I am wrong with the percentages but it should be able to kill 10-15% earlier than it already does)
With these improvements, I really think Pit can be a viable character.
I'm not discounting you, merely requesting more information."
I apologize for not replying to this sooner, I haven't been able to get on and check for awhile but I am back and I will give some information now.
Alright here are Pit's worst matchups (All 6:4 in his opponent's favor and above)
Meta Knight 60:40- This is definitely one of Pit's harder matchups, I would say it was his hardest overall if it wasn't for the fact that MK is a very overused character that we have learned to fight. Pit cannot approach MK for the most part, he is slower, he deals less damage, only a very few niche techniques can really be used to break the tornado, the Shuttle loop can stop many of your approaches, if you don't watch out you can even be gimped quite easily. a Smart Pit user would use his arrows wise, making sure he can hit MK or lure him into weakness. A charged F-Smash can break the beginning of the tornado, and D-tilt can break through it when its in it's beginning frames, D-air and an arrow from above can also pierce the tornado from the Top. Pit on the ground relies on a few grab combos he has on MK (F-throw to stutter step F-smash (works at 0%), D-throw to U-air (works up until 30%), F-Throw to Dash attack (works until about 35%), etc.). U-air can counter some of MK's aerial game, using fast attacks and being weary to make sure MK cannot really cause damage on the inside is the real important part of this matchup. a Tornado abusing MK is really hard to counter as well, so you have to be weary as well. My main problem with this matchup is that MK can kill you in so many ways, while I can only find a few ways to kill him, and not even really fast unless it's a good set-up. Some things that would make the matchup easier for me would be D-Smash and D-air definitely having a bit more knockback, having a +1 damage increase on D-tilt maybe, and adding a bit more knockback on the Dash attack. Making the N-air harder to DI out of would make approaching/punishing with that attack a LOT more useful for this predicament, as it is usually a good move to counter with, but since it's easy to DI/get away from, it's not really efficient. Also Meta Knight's Tornado being Toned down and his Shuttle loop and Down smash being weaker as well makes life a lot easier already on top of these few things.. I think with the changes it would be even.
Game and Watch 65:35: Pit's worst matchup, Pit can only do but so much against G&W, G&W outprioritizes him, ***** him in the air, can keep him in the air with his U-air, kills Pit really early, can counter most of Pit's aerial approaches with grabs or OOS aerials if done right, but it is another matchup that can be overcomed with knowledge. Pit can jab to outspeed some of G&W's attempts, F-air spam to space from G&W, D-air through N-air which causes a collision in your favor, jab cancel into a grabs which can lead into set ups, and kill early with B-air's and F-Smashes that you have to preserve in this matchup. it's a lot less detailed than the MK matchup, but it is definitely just as hard. A few things I would recommend for this matchup would be the things I listed above really, more knockback on D-Smash and D-air, two moves I use a lot in the matchup. Luckily F-air has increased damage output already which makes things a bit easier on that end. If Pit could kill Game and Watch as early as G&W kills him, it would still be in Game and Watch's favor but it would sure as hell be a LOT easier.
Falco 60:40: I'll admit I don't have much of a problem with this matchup unless I fight Zen's falco really.. But I already know all the details about what makes this in Falco's favor. Falco can outcamp you, make your arrows a lot less useful with his amazing reflector, can CG you to 60 easy percent, Gimp you quite easily if done right, and with limited approaches and oppurtunities, this matchup can be really annoying and takes a lot of patience. Falco no longer having a CG in Bbrawl makes things a lot more standable, and actually makes this matchup a lot easier.. and with the updates Pit can get, this matchup is actually as good as even now. Pit having a bit more killing power and damage rackup would easily make it fair that Falco can so easily outcamp you. I honestly think this matchup has been fixed a lot already in a sense.
Olimar 60:40: In my own personal opinion, my least favorite matchup. Olimar can camp as well as Pit, if not better, outranges Pit, can stop many of your approaches with his insane grab range, is really hard to approach due to his small size and amazing range, can kill you really early, outprioritizes you, and you cannot even ledge camp well against him because his pikmin block your arrows, and his grabs if done right can grab you off the ledge. Your only advantages are the fact that you beat him air-wise, you can juggle him easily, and if done right you can gimp him as well. A move that seems to be useful in this matchup is N-air, and with the slight boosts I mentioned before, I believe that it could help. the Killing power increase that I also want to suggest would make his killing power look a lot less threatening in the big picture. The slight boosts would make Olimar a lot less threatening in the eyes of Pit users.
Wario 60:40: Obnoxious, unpredictable and with amazing air movement, Wario is definitely a pain for Pit. He Lives sooo long, He can kill you soo early, he can approach Pit soo easily with D-air's and his amazing air movement, You spend most of your match blocking which ends up being broken easily by your sheild becoming smaller, or by him easily approaching you and grabbing you. He deals damage as fast as you with his amazing approaches and attacks, and kills you a lot earlier. His farting move is also unpredictable and is the biggest pain in the neck for me, being able to gimp you offstage and onstage, or kill you at very low percentages. N-air is amazing against Wario, So the slight boost would make it even more useful against him! And more killing power? Pit would be a LOT less threatened by Wario, I really don't even have too much problem with this matchup already so I could definitely see it turn even.
Marth 60:40- He's... very annoying to fight if in the right hands. Marth outranges you, you have no real approaches against a good one, he racks up damage faster, his fast aerial speed can cause you problems when recovering, Tippers can really cause a lot of annoyances, a well spaced Marth can be impossible to really get at without gaining a huge amount of percentage yourself. You can't do many approaches unless he does one of his smash attacks or one of his few laggy moves, you spend most of your match punishing, arrow shooting, and because of his mediocre recovery, gimping. Speaking of recovery, Marth is like meta knight in the fact that he can break through quite a few of your attacks with his invincibility frame Dolphin slash. Like other matchups, killing power would make this a lot easier... Pit can kill Marth easily in some instances, but he can do a lot more damage than you, plus he can also kill you quite early, so being able to kill him earlier would make things less stressful.. Pit having more damage causing potential would make more moves more useful against him as well.. This would definitely make the matchup near even/even I believe.
These are some of the matchups and how I believe that a few more enhancements can fix them.. I think Balanced Brawl really helps with some of the matchups already, and that with a few more modifications that Pit would really be balanced and much more viable as a character. I just looked through the list of things that I think would make the matchup fair, and for convenience I will put them in a list so you may refresh your mind onto what I am asking for, and if it is worth adding.
Things Haven is asking to be buffed in Bbrawl
N-air is harder to DI out of/sucks you in a bit more (Not like the Tornado did in regular brawl, but enough that it can hit you with a decent potion of the hits)
D-Air and D-Smash gain more knockback (D-air I think should be able to kill 10-15% earlier then it does now, and D-Smash should be closer to MK's D-Smash strength, maybe even a bit stronger since it is slower)
Dash attack gains more strength- (Dash attack with Good DI I think kills MK at 140% with good DI... I think it should be able to kill 125%-130% against a Good DI'ing MK, I think I am wrong with the percentages but it should be able to kill 10-15% earlier than it already does)
With these improvements, I really think Pit can be a viable character.
Mit
Smash Ace
Question. I might have heard wrong, but I got hit by Ganon's up-B the other day (grabbed mid-air, exploded outward), and I went hardly anywhere, even though I had about 60% damage before getting grabbed. I got a decent amount of damage, but was nowhere near killing range. It seemed like I could have hit him immediately after he released me too. Is this a fluke? I think I heard someone mention it already, actually. You guys may or may not already be working on it.
If you open yourself to get punished by it, you're in trouble.
Link I think will have to be put in the hands of some of the more spectacular Link mains out there. A lot of them already have a dangerous onstage game, but it doesn't quite outweigh the poor offstage/recovery. However, his buffs in BBrawl pretty much put him in the same class as heavyweights. He's very dangerous, racks up damage very fast, and has more than a few fast kill moves to get rid of his opponents with (first hit fsmash is lethal, second hit fsmash = you're dead). You just have to kill your opponent before he has a chance to get you offstage and gimp you, and get back to the stage as much as possible. I think mains could really do some damage with Link in BBrawl.
Yoshi probably should seem unchanged, he just has damage buffs. Knockback changes to him would mess up a lot of his combos and I'm sure existing Yoshi mains wouldn't be happy about that (he actually would probably be worse off). I think his damage buffs and nerfs to top tier characters makes him much more viable though.
A lot of these things I think are because none of you were probably mains, or even fairly good with any of the low tiers that were buffed. Ganon, for one, I think is near impossible to be judged right now, because even Ganon mains will have to change their playstyle up a lot to work all the new techniques in. As a Falcon main myself, I can easily notice Falcon's changes, mainly in the increased knockback and damage in his hits. It was never too hard to rack up damage in vBrawl, but in BBrawl it's easier, and you can get people to a potential kill percentage much easier. Also, utilt is LETHAL. The angle is incredible, and can cause major problems for certain characters' recoveries if they get hit by it at the edge of the stage. A lot of his moves are more viable to kill with as well, when you get to relatively high percents. He can kill early with his kill moves though, ESPECIALLY knee. 60% at edge of stage + sweetspot knee = death. Not that the move itself is used very much anyways in competitive play, but stillAdapt said:
If you open yourself to get punished by it, you're in trouble.Link I think will have to be put in the hands of some of the more spectacular Link mains out there. A lot of them already have a dangerous onstage game, but it doesn't quite outweigh the poor offstage/recovery. However, his buffs in BBrawl pretty much put him in the same class as heavyweights. He's very dangerous, racks up damage very fast, and has more than a few fast kill moves to get rid of his opponents with (first hit fsmash is lethal, second hit fsmash = you're dead). You just have to kill your opponent before he has a chance to get you offstage and gimp you, and get back to the stage as much as possible. I think mains could really do some damage with Link in BBrawl.
Yoshi probably should seem unchanged, he just has damage buffs. Knockback changes to him would mess up a lot of his combos and I'm sure existing Yoshi mains wouldn't be happy about that (he actually would probably be worse off). I think his damage buffs and nerfs to top tier characters makes him much more viable though.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Well going by what you said, they only have to work on Pit vs G&W
anything that is within 40-60 to 60-40 is A OK to leave in.
and Wario and MK got nerfed a bit. So those two need to be relooked. falco lost his CG so that also needs to be relooked.
Everyone else you mentioned is the same.
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