Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Pierce7d]

Just give Pit +1 to arrows so he can really camp, and you're good.

 

[Rykoshet]

As for what I mentioned earlier, to claim yoshi feels the same when the viability of the character as a whole skyrocketed is kind of silly. He now has a number of viable responses in situations he didn't beforehand. The character wasn't complete garbage before, I will admit as much, but a screwup on an edgeguarder's end can mean the loss of a stock. He has a way to force people to not shield at the ledge and he can punish heavily if you don't. This alongside his amazing survivability, maneuverability, extra damage and a new killshot really opens things up for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Ctso-26qA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-bYo6rDZ34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CwAtXz3Zqw

Granted on a stage with no platforms, quick draw really ****s up his day but otherwise he's really good.

 

[Mit]

After playing a bit more extensively, Falcon still gets a bit frustrating to play :\ I'd say his biggest buff was on his utilt, but there are still just no solutions to his poor approaches and defenses (mainly because of how he's all physical with no projectiles/disjointed hitboxes except utilt). He can still get camped pretty hardcore, and has a pretty hard time stopping characters who have a decent amount of speed, but higher priority and faster attacks than him (Wario). Falcon Kick is pretty decent for getting inside, although it can become easily predicted by your opponent if you start using it often.

I really don't know what else there it to buff though :\ The only reason he was good in previous games was hitstun, and I know BBrawl isn't looking to change stuff like that.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

just make falcons ground attacks better... Like his neutral A

 

[jalued]

just make falcons ground attacks better... Like his neutral A

personally think falcon is a lost cause

 

[Linkshot]

It was Falcon's running jump, knee, and power in Melee that made him good.

 

[Deleted member]

personally think falcon is a lost cause

I'd say give him the B+ treatement, but ofcourse a lot more conservative.
AA, I would suggest looking at melle falcon and see what made him so good, then try to incorporate some of those elements, which would work well in brawl.

 

[Revven]

It was Falcon's running jump, knee, and power in Melee that made him good.

And obviously you can't give him that stuff without changing the engine in some way (the knee in this case being a hitbox problem which they won't change either because that's changing the timing and obviously we don't wanna do that to poor old Craptain Falcon...). Which makes me somewhat agree with what jalued said.

On the other hand, if you fixed Nair, Fair, Dair, and made him faster perhaps he would do better. But of course, Nair, Fair, and Dair all have hitbox issues (Nair's hitboxes are only out 2 frames each kick, Fair's flub hitbox is bigger than the sweetspot hitbox, and Dair has that lame chest trajectory that should be the nipple spike as well as KB issues as it is a terrible meteor and has horrible onstage use even with the AC part of it).

CF is going to be hard to balance imo.

 

[Mit]

Well, what made Falcon good in Melee was his ability to combo, due to the increased amount of hitstun in that game. IIRC, it's not entirely possible to adjust hitstun in Brawl without changing the hitstun in the entire game, meaning you can't just make him a combo machine. I also don't think BBrawl would want to make him a combo machine.

Some things I think could help would be to make his ftilt either faster, or more powerful (I'd prefer faster, or both :D ), and if possible to mess with hitstun for individual moves, make a lot of his moves have just enough hitstun so that they don't allow for combos, but only allow for most characters to airdodge or get hit by Falcon.

Also, fair doesn't have a larger hitbox on the flub, unless you're talking about the timing of the move. Fair doesn't actually even have a 'sweetspot' per se, it's just if you hit someone with the opening frames of fair, it sweetspots. If you hit them later than that, it flubs. Trust me, you can sweetspot knee people with your ankles, the hitbox is the same size

 

[Linkshot]

You can change individual hitstun, I believe. I know that Gale Boomerang has this unbelievably high hitstun attached to it (at *2 and 300%, you will almost die off the bottom of PictoChat from falling in hitstun).

I'd say buff his hitstun by 10 or 20%. He should be a fast but less rewarding Ganon: Hard to get in, but if you do, there will be blood.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

it's not his hitstun, it's just his approaches and his crappy running dash that has one crappy *** frame until you can shield... that's what his problem is.

 

[Revven]

You can change individual hitstun, I believe. I know that Gale Boomerang has this unbelievably high hitstun attached to it (at *2 and 300%, you will almost die off the bottom of PictoChat from falling in hitstun).

I'd say buff his hitstun by 10 or 20%. He should be a fast but less rewarding Ganon: Hard to get in, but if you do, there will be blood.

PK didn't add what he thought would be the hitstun float to the code so the current hitbox property code does not allow you to toggle hitstun on specific moves (and I wouldn't expect PK to go and do this now because he's in the US right now... and will be for another 3 weeks).

it's not his hitstun, it's just his approaches and his crappy running dash that has one crappy *** frame until you can shield... that's what his problem is.

Yes, yes, and yes. He needs a huge dash speed increase, it's so ****ty that he's slower than Sonic. Like I said, faster dash speed, better Nair, better Fair, and better Dair (so AC Dair would actually be something to **** your pants over because let's face it, no good CF main uses it because it has such terrible KB onstage). If he had a Nair that actually worked right (not with each hitbox out for 2 frames ala Ganondorf's Nair from Melee) then perhaps he would do a little better, but adding Fair and Dair fixes into the mix would help a lot more than also just fixing Nair (which you still should do).

All Nair is used for is a lead into grabbing... which jab does better at anyway. If it could actually be used as a move where you run in and attack with it then it would be significantly better.

 

[Deleted member]

I could do it. easily. but the point is that by now I really doubt it IS hitstun. the other values I found was hitlag, that one was prettyh obvious, but thie "hitstun" value didn't seem to do much, even with the hitstun code on.
hitstun is just likely a result of differences in dmg, BKB and KBG.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol... and ganondorf needs his melee jab.

 

[Rykoshet]

If falcon cant get straight comboability (I will state that as far as fundamentally changing a character goes, it might be necessary for falcon) he shoudl at the very least have viable strings and frame/dodge traps. Characters like mario, luigi, sheik, and marth with less maneuverability all have these.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

but yeah what I was meaning that falcons dash frame is pretty crappy if you compare it to like snake and ikes... if you dash then shield "I personally don't have the slightest clue how many frames", BUT it's obvious that it takes awhile before he can shield after dashing. all you do is smack that control stick and then shield and falcon will dash then go right to shield lol, let's fix that first then slowly move towards making falcon better... we don't want the falcon>>Ganon type deal


btw i'm too lazy atm to correct any errors in this what you call sentence lol.

 

[Mit]

I think Ganon is still largely ahead of Falcon in BBrawl just because of how much more dangerous he is. A good Ganon main could incorporate the new tactics into their game, while also keeping their original playstyle, and be very, very lethal. Falcon's only changes so far really have been more knockback and damage, but those aren't quite enough to balance him against defensive characters (and most all higher tier characters can play more defensively if they want to).

I like making dash attack better. It is indeed pretty bad right now, and if it gets shielded by your opponent, you have no chance of not getting punished, even if you run almost completely past them before dash attacking. If possible to give him a few move strings as well that'd be great, because yeah, the whole reason he was good in Melee was that if you let him get in, he could unleash some pretty painful combos. Take that away, and all he can do is get one or two hits in before having to play keep away and punish again.

 

[Rykoshet]

I think Ganon is still largely ahead of

Frame 8 called, told me to say "lol".

 

[Big O]

Well to be fair, his grab and Nair come out on frame 7 and Uair on frame 6. Ganon is still easy to exploit via camping and zoning in general but he can dish out some serious damage when he finally gets in. I think he only needs a little bit of creative tweaking to help him fight against Falco and the like.

 

[Mit]

Well to be fair, his grab and Nair come out on frame 7 and Uair on frame 6. Ganon is still easy to exploit via camping and zoning in general but he can dish out some serious damage when he finally gets in. I think he only needs a little bit of creative tweaking to help him fight against Falco and the like.

And that's what I'm talking about. It's hard for both Falcon and Ganon to get in, but when Ganon gets in, he causes way more havok than Falcon can. Not to mention a large variety of moves to kill people with when they get to decent-to-high percentages.

 

[Big O]

CF has the speed to get in and is much more maneuverable than Ganon. The knee is a very good kill move and CF has a much better approach now. His Nair is stronger than his Uair now and his side b seems to be much better at follow-ups than before. All the little changes really add up and enhance all the key aspects of his game like damage building and follow-ups. I had a bunch of Ganon vs CF friendlies with my friend and CF definetely has the advantage. His new aerial side b has a lot of edgeguarding potential too. CF isn't so far behind that he needs some kind of miracle fix. A few buffs maybe but nothing too drastic. If you think Ganon is fine then CF should be fine too. Even though Ganon is more threatening than CF, he is also easier to avoid/exploit than CF.

I personally think both Ganon and CF are way too underated.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

yeah they are under rated. I mean look at ally's falcon lol... anyways falcon needs better neutral A, and his first dash frame to be reduced so he can block a little bit sooner. oh yeah, make ganons jab 4 frames faster.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

also i'm curious of when the next update for balanced brawl will be. Anyone have any clue when it's going to be updated?

 

[Mit]

CF has the speed to get in and is much more maneuverable than Ganon. The knee is a very good kill move and CF has a much better approach now. His Nair is stronger than his Uair now and his side b seems to be much better at follow-ups than before. All the little changes really add up and enhance all the key aspects of his game like damage building and follow-ups. I had a bunch of Ganon vs CF friendlies with my friend and CF definetely has the advantage. His new aerial side b has a lot of edgeguarding potential too. CF isn't so far behind that he needs some kind of miracle fix. A few buffs maybe but nothing too drastic. If you think Ganon is fine then CF should be fine too. Even though Ganon is more threatening than CF, he is also easier to avoid/exploit than CF.

I personally think both Ganon and CF are way too underated.

Falcon Punch is a really good kill move too, but you don't land those ever in competitive play, and you rarely land knees in competitive play either.

I fail to see any reasoning for Falcon having a better approach either. Nair is stronger than uair, but it's another move that you don't get off too often. His side-B as far as followups is mostly the same as before, except now you don't get punished for landing side-B at low percents. However, when you go for followups, a good opponent will airdodge everytime and make a safe landing back on the ground.

And edgeguarding with side-b? Huh? The only use for edgeguarding I can think of with side-b is going very low across the surface of the level, and over the edge, to punish a player who misses the ledge and goes over it a bit. Otherwise, you're going to miss them, fall past the edge, and while you won't fall to your death, your opponent hanging on the ledge above will punish you every time.

Also, testing which character is better by pitting them against each other doesn't tell you who the better character is.

 

[DominusHaven]

After finally getting all the requirements needed for Balanced Brawl, I have to say it is a very good project. I was a little iffy on it at first, but it is definitely really good, and I think everyone should give this a chance. Keep up the good work.

 

[Linkshot]

What Falcon needs is a specific move that will combo into Knee at killing percentages.

Also a better approach.

+2 to Raptor Boost and Grounded Falcon Kick? (damage)
+1 to dThrow?

 

[Big O]

Falcon Punch is a really good kill move too, but you don't land those ever in competitive play, and you rarely land knees in competitive play either.

I fail to see any reasoning for Falcon having a better approach either. Nair is stronger than uair, but it's another move that you don't get off too often. His side-B as far as followups is mostly the same as before, except now you don't get punished for landing side-B at low percents. However, when you go for followups, a good opponent will airdodge everytime and make a safe landing back on the ground.

And edgeguarding with side-b? Huh? The only use for edgeguarding I can think of with side-b is going very low across the surface of the level, and over the edge, to punish a player who misses the ledge and goes over it a bit. Otherwise, you're going to miss them, fall past the edge, and while you won't fall to your death, your opponent hanging on the ledge above will punish you every time.

Also, testing which character is better by pitting them against each other doesn't tell you who the better character is.

See the thing is air dodging after getting hit with a side b won't lead to a safe landing every time. Air dodges last long enough for CF since even if they air dodge the first aerial CF can just throw out another one for a free hit. It now qualifies as a frame trap. That is a huge improvement from being punished on hit. Falcon kick also is no longer punishable on hit. That opens up his low % approach options so his approach did get better. The knee isn't as impossibly hard to land as your comparison to Falcon Punch makes it out to be. You could probably even pull off some knee's from a good read after a side b. Moves like his Nair and the knee while against some characters are much more difficult to land, in the match-ups where they are more viable they are much more valuable now than before. I think you can agree that the knee and Nair help a lot more vs DK and Ganon than MK or Olimar for example. I also doubt Nair is that hard to land while edgeguarding.

Using side b to edgeguard won't work on every character but there are several characters that have predictable recovery options that side b would be good at stopping. Even if you whiffed because they air dodged you are in a great position to punish them. I can see it working well on on ROB when he is below the stage for an example.

The bit you said about pitting characters against each other is true. I would still say CF has better overall match-ups than Ganon. Some of Ganon's bad match-ups are still pretty bad while CF's worst match-ups are now manageable but still bad.

 

[Scipion121212]

Hey guys, I got a few questions and suggestions. But please note I am kinda newbish (but that doesn´t mean you shouldn´t answer my questions lol )
What about (as proposed before) giving the tripping effect down angled F-tilt instead of Dtilt? Dtilt was solid move before, relatively (on CF) safe on block.. Which is no longer true with +5 frame lag. But down angled F-tilt is basicaly 100% USELESS move, as D-tilt is always better when jab-locks were removed. It would make useless move not useless and make D-tilt as good in some situations as it was before.
Next thing, I am not sure, but doesn´t electric effect on grab attack add hitlag? And doesn´t that mean that opponent have more time to mash buttons to get out of grab, which would be practically nerf to grab attack? (I may be wrong on this one)
Another thing, was knockback on falcon dive explosion compensated for added damage? (And when not montioned in OP, is the knockback for added damage always compensated?)
Next to last thing, does genesis update work on PAL version of brawl? It isn´t stated anywhere it isn´t but I don´t like trying things that should freeze or do something to my wii =)
Last thing, if you want to overall make Falcon better, what about giving these +2% to first hit of Nair instead of 2nd?
First hit Nair just before hitting ground is very important move to Falcon as it combos into Utilt and UpB (26% now!!) and slower things(real combos).
On the other hand, 2nd hit Nair isn´t used as much, it is much harder to hit it with, and can really hit only when approaching with SH Nair and these +2% don´t really make the approach better.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Captain Douglas J. Falcon posting time!

First of all, I should inform everyone that Thinkaman pretty much uses Captain Falcon as a "secondary" in the sense that he plays C.Falcon a ton casually even though he'd never use him in tournament in standard Brawl (because he's so bad). We do know this character (and Ganon) even though they really are way below the water line of balance in standard Brawl.

Anyway, the tripping dtilt is probably out in the next release with a generally improved version of C.Falcon's original dtilt there instead. Careful analysis indicated that trip dtilt wasn't quite as awesome on Captain Falcon as it was on Ganon (though in development it was a C.Falcon idea first), and we have improved him in other ways since then.

Specifically, throw mods help him a ton (his throws now give him really nice positional advantages, not quite true combos but close). Landing grabs is very reasonable with Captain Falcon already; this should be a big deal for him.

Falcon Kick is being a bit undervalued right now IMO. It has decent priority unlike most of Captain Falcon's moves, and the way it always hits upward is just perfect for Captain Falcon with his beastly uair. It is basically a rushing move that creates opportunities; I really expect in the long run for it to be shown to be a really big deal for Captain Falcon.

Aerial Raptor Boost is also a good approach on-stage. Fun trivia about it you may not have known: you can air control during the swinging attack of it. That means you can Raptor Boost in, hit them, and then retreat to safety during the swing. You can also not air control and instead input a double jump right after hitting for a chance to do some chasing; it's pretty cool. I know some people like to hold forward the whole time; that's a pretty bad idea since it ends with you in a risky position from which it's kinda hard to follow up. It can still be used for mix-ups though.

You can't break grabs during hitlag; inputs on those frames are ignored (I think at least). The electric knee pummel does remind people to try to break out more, but Captain Falcon really loves it when people DI his throws incorrectly so this is overall positive for him. The pummel also does 1% more than it used to so he is probably doing more damage even with fewer pummels. It's definitely a buff.

About Captain Falcon in general, we cannot restore melee Captain Falcon even if we wanted to. What some people may not realize is that Captain Falcon is barely changed from Melee in Brawl. The main change he has is that his knee now has a one frame sweetspot window, but in genreal his frame speeds and hitboxes are pretty similar to how they were in Melee. His style in that game just plain does not work in Brawl, and we can't make it work without making Brawl itself into a really different game. This isn't really a bad thing IMO; characters in Brawl are expected to be different from their Melee selves (Mr. Game & Watch and Ness don't mind!). Captain Falcon as he exists in Brawl is pretty bad, but he does have his high points and a style he pursues, and we want to focus on what he is and just make it good. It's not easy at all, and there is going to be a lot different just because of how bad he used to be and how polarized some of his matchups were (like Captain Falcon versus team disjointed). He's not just a "combo" character; he's also a high mobility low attack speed powerhouse, and I think that style can be made to work. We've definitely put and are continuing to put a lot of care into him, and I think the results are and will continue to be positive.

The genesis update doesn't currently have a PAL version, sorry. We have a lot on our plates right now, and we can't test any PAL versions of codes so it's hard.

 

[Rykoshet]

It has decent priority unlike most of Captain Falcon's moves

Not to be a downer but ike can punch him straight out of falcon kick.

 

[Big O]

I think that has more to do with CF's kick hitting low to the ground and Ike's jab being relatively high. Ike's jab is an amazing move in general anyway.

 

[Mit]

See the thing is air dodging after getting hit with a side b won't lead to a safe landing every time. Air dodges last long enough for CF since even if they air dodge the first aerial CF can just throw out another one for a free hit. It now qualifies as a frame trap. That is a huge improvement from being punished on hit. Falcon kick also is no longer punishable on hit. That opens up his low % approach options so his approach did get better. The knee isn't as impossibly hard to land as your comparison to Falcon Punch makes it out to be. You could probably even pull off some knee's from a good read after a side b. Moves like his Nair and the knee while against some characters are much more difficult to land, in the match-ups where they are more viable they are much more valuable now than before. I think you can agree that the knee and Nair help a lot more vs DK and Ganon than MK or Olimar for example. I also doubt Nair is that hard to land while edgeguarding.

Using side b to edgeguard won't work on every character but there are several characters that have predictable recovery options that side b would be good at stopping. Even if you whiffed because they air dodged you are in a great position to punish them. I can see it working well on on ROB when he is below the stage for an example.

The airdodging after side-b very, very rarely ever works out to be that way in actuality, as it's something I try all the time. What I actually need to do is bait airdodges and not attack, and then attack after their airdodge is complete. If you attack and they airdodge, it almost always works out that they'll dodge and fastfall to safety, especially since they're DI is usually setup so that they fall down and away from you after they airdodge.

And if you look at some of the better Falcons out there, or get a general consensus from Falcon mains, they'll all tell you that sweetspotted fair is not a move you should try often, as a good opponent will very, very rarely allow themself to be hit by it. It should really only be used in punishing situations when there is a very good chance you'll connect, or you will for sure connect. It is, as you say, more viable against large/tall characters (short-hop fair can actually sweetspot), but those aren't part of his more problematic matchups.

As far as spiking with side-b to edgeguard, if you're using it on characters with more predictable recoveries, I think it's more valuable to learn to spike with dair (dair is a move I get off very often on ROBs). It's stronger, less predictable, and still easy to recover from (even if you whiff). I will have to mess with side-b's more advanced options that Ampharos pointed out, though.

Anyway, the tripping dtilt is probably out in the next release with a generally improved version of C.Falcon's original dtilt there instead. Careful analysis indicated that trip dtilt wasn't quite as awesome on Captain Falcon as it was on Ganon (though in development it was a C.Falcon idea first), and we have improved him in other ways since then.

Specifically, throw mods help him a ton (his throws now give him really nice positional advantages, not quite true combos but close). Landing grabs is very reasonable with Captain Falcon already; this should be a big deal for him.

Good to hear. Throw improvements are always good, as they are indeed a big part of Falcon's game.

Falcon Kick is being a bit undervalued right now IMO. It has decent priority unlike most of Captain Falcon's moves, and the way it always hits upward is just perfect for Captain Falcon with his beastly uair. It is basically a rushing move that creates opportunities; I really expect in the long run for it to be shown to be a really big deal for Captain Falcon.

I'll have to also comment that Falcon Kick still doesn't have great priority (although I guess you did only say decent ), but it's good for getting inside and interrupting a camping character or something. I don't think it allows for great chases, however. My opponent always seems to pop either straight up or behind me, and by the time you cool down from Falcon Kick and turn around to chase, they're already recovered in the air, awaiting your next move, and can either counter or avoid it with relative ease. It's still very valuable for stopping campers though, and I do use it a lot.

Aerial Raptor Boost is also a good approach on-stage. Fun trivia about it you may not have known: you can air control during the swinging attack of it. That means you can Raptor Boost in, hit them, and then retreat to safety during the swing. You can also not air control and instead input a double jump right after hitting for a chance to do some chasing; it's pretty cool. I know some people like to hold forward the whole time; that's a pretty bad idea since it ends with you in a risky position from which it's kinda hard to follow up. It can still be used for mix-ups though.

I'll have to mess with this more, it's just that whenever you whiff aerial side-b, or get shielded, it's bad, and makes the move risky in my opinion.

About Captain Falcon in general, we cannot restore melee Captain Falcon even if we wanted to. What some people may not realize is that Captain Falcon is barely changed from Melee in Brawl. The main change he has is that his knee now has a one frame sweetspot window, but in genreal his frame speeds and hitboxes are pretty similar to how they were in Melee. His style in that game just plain does not work in Brawl, and we can't make it work without making Brawl itself into a really different game. This isn't really a bad thing IMO; characters in Brawl are expected to be different from their Melee selves (Mr. Game & Watch and Ness don't mind!). Captain Falcon as he exists in Brawl is pretty bad, but he does have his high points and a style he pursues, and we want to focus on what he is and just make it good. It's not easy at all, and there is going to be a lot different just because of how bad he used to be and how polarized some of his matchups were (like Captain Falcon versus team disjointed). He's not just a "combo" character; he's also a high mobility low attack speed powerhouse, and I think that style can be made to work. We've definitely put and are continuing to put a lot of care into him, and I think the results are and will continue to be positive.

I look forward to the next update and am glad you guys are putting in a lot of effort towards Falcon.


And to whoever said it, first hit nair does not combo into utilt or up-B, although it comes close.

 

[Thinkaman]

I hate to jump in here real quick without addressing every post I've not had the chance to answer yet (Ampharos and I read everything here, and some of the recent posts are really excellent!), but we have a specific issue.

We need some people who are legitimately skilled with the Ice Climbers, including all CGs of course. ICs are the last great unknown standing in the way of a real release, and both of us are quick to admit that we will never come close to generating good IC data first hand. Anyone interested?

 

[Violent-nin]

Subscribing

 

[Linkshot]

Quick! Fire up the Lainmobile! We need some sherpas tamed!

Anyway, how does Falcon do overall right now?

 

[MorphedChaos]

Go go Ganondorf, All hail the Dark commandments!

No seriously, jeez. And I thought he was scary before in the hands of someone who was good...

 

[Scipion121212]

And to whoever said it, first hit nair does not combo into utilt or up-B, although it comes close.

Really it doesn´t? I thought it does when you hit 1 frame before landing.. I even read somewhere it combos into Fsmash and SH knee on floatier characters >_> I need to force Falcon boards to test it.
Edit: Yeah, here it is, not sure wheter it is true combo or not, but on thread about it they told it was real combo.. I will try to find it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIJJpzrqzq4
2ndEdit: here is the thread where it states it IS true combo. Look at "True Combo´s" (green) section: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227110

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

+1% to damage on dtilt is very minor and isn't going to help ZSS vs Falco at all, but thanks for the continued efforts and good work.

The only thing that would really help ZSS vs Falco would be to give her some kind of reliable option when she's above an opponent (so after navigating the lasers, she could drop in from above). I don't know what that would be, though.

 

[Mit]

Really it doesn´t? I thought it does when you hit 1 frame before landing.. I even read somewhere it combos into Fsmash and SH knee on floatier characters >_> I need to force Falcon boards to test it.
Edit: Yeah, here it is, not sure wheter it is true combo or not, but on thread about it they told it was real combo.. I will try to find it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIJJpzrqzq4
2ndEdit: here is the thread where it states it IS true combo. Look at "True Combo´s" (green) section: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227110

Ah, you right. Apparently I must not have been canceling it late enough, but if you try the stuff yourself, I think you'll find your opponents DI will make stuff like an utilt not connect most of the time. I try it a lot, too much actually, and my opponent always gets a powershield out before the utilt.

Also, IIRC, there's two different ways your opponent can pop into the air, one higher than the other. It seems like if they pop up lower, the only thing you can combo into is jab. Of course, they always seem to pop up lower and rarely pop up higher to do better combos.

 

[Crescens]

As a ZSS main, I beg of you; PLEASE fix ZSS' Dsmash.

The point of the move isn't the stun itself, it's the release, when the opponent is popped into the air at a relatively predictable angle so as to be followed with a fair or uair at low damages and a bair at higher ones. The knockback varies drastically now based on character and percent, and from what I can tell from my matches, it can be Did quite effectively now. I almost KOd an opponent off the top of the stage with a move that's supposed to paralyze - a bit strange.

The Dsmash was intended to be Zamus' 'trump card'; she needs it to retain her very balanced position on the tierlist. Isn't it possible to increase/change the knockback of the move from vBrawl enough to allow fox to escape the chain, while keeping the trajectory and knockback constant enough to allow followups?

Falcon should have the knockback gain on most of his moves decreased. The angles should also be mildly altered. The dtilt could set up a reasonably likely utilt or uair, which in turn might knock the opponent into a potential nair, etc. His down angle ftilt could set up a techchase, his nipple spike could return, whatever. Hitstun changes aren't really necessary. Once falcon gets close, he should be able to keep the opponent there. As it is now, you dthrow to uair and knock the opponent away. Now you're at a disadvantage as you must approach again. Bah. Hiis KO moves should retain knockback, of course.


Other than that, I have no major complaints. A few quick observations and thoughts, take from them what you will:

Samus is pretty much perfect now; ridiculously fun to play. Ike is surprisingly viable as long as you know how to jab you heart out. Dtilt is a crazy KO option now. ROB's ftilt makes DK sad; maybe I just suck at teching. Ganon's matchups are still polarized (MK...), but a reversed stutterstepped fsmash from an autocanceled dair doesn't feel like my only option anymore with a better Wizkick and dtilt. Ganon can actually come down from the air now with a well timed Wizkick. Pikachu, Dedede and Falco could benefit from some throw tweaks now that it's possible; Falco's isn't reliable at all anymore, Pika's owns Ikes, DKs and Ganons a bit much, Dedede's dthrow is like a better version of Ganon's Gerudo. You could consider making Pika's dsmash a bit harder to SDI at low percentages if the grab nerfs are too much. Ness' bat dealing 27% out of the improved PK-fire hurts my brain. Jiggs could use a grounded move that puts opponents into the air to help her do what she does best.