Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Crescens]

I'm back and boy this has been dead lately... I was hoping to come back to more.

I would recommend doing more on the publicity side of things. BBrawl has a certain advantage in that fans of the project are very eager to crusade about the awesomeness of it, whereas BBrawl doesn't seem to be taking many steps on the promotional side of things. Much of the community is likely completely unaware of it's existence. I only discovered this due to a search for something completely unrelated, and I was intrigued by the name.

Where are banner-like signatures? At least Thinkaman and you should be using one. I would, too. The more people see the BBrawl name, the more inclined they will be to play it. Coerce a high level player or two to try it out and post a few vids to demonstrate the potential. From what I gather, NinjaLink seems a likely choice; at least in terms of supporting the project. Try to get some videos up in the character specific forums; Bbrawl is similar enough to vBrawl (especially with most characters) that videos could potentially be accepted into the archives with a <BBrawl> tag of sorts. Ultimately, the best thing you could do is arrange tournaments sometime in the future.

Anyway, ZSS on R.O.B. infinite doesn't work in Bbrawl at all. I'm very, very sure of this unless somehow a critical code got left out (which I don't think is true) since I specifically designed and tested for this case. Aerial footstool slamming you into the ground (which is, mechanics wise, how the infinite worked) now just results in you doing the hard landing animation (which is what happens when you land out of a fastfall, very quick animation). In general, getting footstooled isn't a big deal in Bbrawl; my analysis (which I believe to be fair) is that nothing good came out of those long footstool combos and that the game is just plain better without them. I think some short combos will still exist though (anything that's a combo that doesn't rely on them slamming into the ground), but those are very fair and probably add a little to the game so that works out well.

I was able to execute the infinite on ROB without any trouble. Is there some way of escaping it that that I'm unaware of? I tried to DI and tech, but I was doing so with my toes (ZSS was in my hands), so it may have been less than effective. It looked to me like the stun continued even after I footstooled ROB when I was testing in training, but don't quote me on that. But, if you have managed to get out of it, maybe you were just doing a better job than I was able to, controlling ROB with my feet.

I found a video to ensure we're talking about the same thing. Skip to 3/4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCAaOhH6UUg

In any case, I agree that footstool combos add nothing to the game. They're difficult to execute and are rarely seen in high levels anyway.

I shall be away and thus will not be posting/responding for two weeks. I'll test the ROB thing again once I'm back to make sure I didn't miss anything obvious.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Crescens that's wrong, you could ALWAYS DI the dsmash release and it wasn't always the same height on popup, as a matter of fact, the dsmash release KILLS at 300% or so in vBrawl.

Talking it over in #ZSS right now and we wonder if there's a way you could change down-b to be an approach option (for lasers). Right now it's a terrible idea to use it on stage. Ideally we'd need to see something like:

a.) down-b's invincibility frames lengthened. This is the worst idea of the ones we talked about, IMO because it would break her recovery (it'd become too good).
b.) a lower angle on the jump. This would make her land faster, but this probably isn't possible, OR
c.) the move's speed being increased significantly (with perhaps a very small buff to the invincibility frames).

This would give her an approach option for laser/arrow/needle camping without breaking her in any other way.

 

[Crescens]

Crescens that's wrong, you could ALWAYS DI the dsmash release and it wasn't always the same height on popup, as a matter of fact, the dsmash release KILLS at 300% or so in vBrawl.

Ah, you're right. No way it kills at 300% if your opponent has a brain though, but I get your point. It kills even earlier now in any case, which is mildly unfortunate. When the knockback is still low, you can't expect to DI out of any well placed bair followup in vBrawl; it's much easier now. By the way, does button mashing get you out of stun faster?

A bit of playing has altered my opinion, however. Though the releases are nerfed substantially, the same functionality can be obtained from the Dsmash by simply following up before the release. I was naively unaware this worked as well: I've habitually waited for the followup, it's easier and has (negligible) advantages.

Even though I find followups off the release much worse, it's should be possible (I haven't tried it yet) to just rely on followups while opponents remain stunned with limited effects on functionality. Opponents might die 1% later off a bair followup, and can SDI to the stage + tech easier on a flipspike followup (and it's still hard). I had a habit to wait for the release so as to gain the aforementioned advantages, but they are truly negligible anyways. Fair is considerably harder to land now, but there are better damage building options, so no worries. I haven't tested at low percents; but as long as double Dsmash + bair/DA followup is still possible at the same percents where it used to become available, the functional followups of Dsmash should remain only mildly changed.

 

[Winnar]

So some friends and I played balanced brawl again today.

We literally have only one complaint: Sonic's spring should never have been made into a spike. Ever.

It is completely unpunishable, it breaks edgeguarding, and it is constantly pissing us off. Pissing us off to the point of the game not being fun to play.

There are a few reasons for why Sonic's spring being a spike is a terrible and frustrating change. I won't go into great detail about them now, but if anyone would like me to elaborate then I would be happy to oblige.

- There is no incentive not to use it. There are few things Sonic can do to edgeguard an opponent normally, with few of them resulting in the death of the opponent and all of them being somewhat risky to go for. The spring spike is a reliable killing edgeguard. Not only that, but by using his up-b Sonic is completely removed from all danger making the danger of using it virtually nonexistent.

- There is little to nothing the majority of the cast can do to avoid it, if used properly. Even characters with otherwise good recoveries will have a difficult time meteor cancelling and making it back to the stage. Characters with poor recoveries (i.e. Link, IC's [generally this desyncs them and makes recovery impossibe], Ganondorf, even Samus when caught unaware) will die at percents as low as 20-30.

I would suggest either returning the spring's properties back to normal or at the very least making the knockback fixed and instantly meteor-cancellable somehow. I would much rather see the first option be put in place, though.

I appreciate that you are trying to buff Sonic, but this just isn't a good change in the game. At all. We all agree that nothing in vanilla brawl ever pissed us off quite like spring spikes. Not tornado spamming metaknights, not the numerous infinites, not even tripping drove us to this level of frustration with the game.

Again, thank you for all the work you've put into this project. The meticulous attention to detail is really quite impressive and the end product reflects this. Like I said, Sonic's new spring mechanic is literally the only complaint we have.

 

[Rykoshet]

It is completely unpunishable

It wasn't punishable to begin with.

it breaks edgeguarding

Not any more than any other walk off spike.

and it is constantly pissing us off. Pissing us off to the point of the game not being fun to play.

 

[Mit]

You know, I tried hopelessly to spam his spring spike against opponents when playing as him, and never really got them off. Your opponent absolutely knows it's coming, and can usually maneuver to avoid it, or go for the ledge as fast as possible. The only time it seems unstoppable is when you can barely make it to the ledge, in which case you could've been edgehogged by anyone anyways. Otherwise, double-jump airdodge should work for most characters, or just get to the ledge before Sonic gets past the ledge (he's fast, but his aerial speed sucks). Not to mention the meteor cancel; whenever I did hit the opponent with it, they'd just double jump ASAP after getting hit, and usually still make it back (although yes, people with poor recoveries are usually screwed, but there are a hundred different ways to gimp Link's recovery, this isn't some magical new issue for him ) I'm okay with the change just because Sonic is largely the same without it. Still has problems killing, still has loooow priority, and can still be camped/spaced by projectiles/disjointed hitboxes. Adding in gimping to his game adds some variety for him, and gives him more options for killing besides rack-up-tons-of-damage-and-fsmash-or-bair.

 

[Linkshot]

Is there a video of the spring spike?

 

[solecalibur]

rather not read 150 pages to make sure it wasnt mentioned
but you know Hanenbow is a CP in doubles but not in singles

 

[Linkshot]

A lot of people don't believe in differentiating them, because Doubles eventually dwindles down to 1v1.

 

[Winnar]

It wasn't punishable to begin with.

Obviously. But then it wasn't always a kill move.

Not any more than any other walk off spike.

Actually MUCH different from any other walk off spike, considering how missing said spike puts you in a position to be edgeguarded, whereas if Sonic misses it then there's not really anything he has to worry about. No spacing, no mindgames, no reason not to, I don't see how this is at all the same as a walk off spike.

Also the spring hangs in the air sort of for a while and travels slowly at first, so unless you are playing a character with a high'ish priority up b, many times you are screwed over by the spring covering so much area.

I wouldn't expect hopelessly spamming the spring to work -_- It's smart and proper application of the spring to anticipate and cover your opponent's recovery

That said it's not like every spring spike gimp was meticulously set up and excellently executed traps. Most of the ones he got were spur of the moment things (we were playing doubles). If he and someone else got knocked off together he would wait until his up b would intercept our recovery so that there was little to no chance of us making it back. It comes out so fast that there is just no time so you watch yourself fly downwards, let loose a quick sigh of disapproval, and carry on with the match.

rant rant rant

 

[Mit]

In terms of being avoided, I don't think it's much different from a walkoff spike. Sure you can't punish him for it, so it's a much safer option, but why does he need to be able to be punished? You can avoid it like any other walkoff spike (in fact, this move overall is probably less dangerous than Ike's walkoff spike, which you never really get to punish either because of his up-b), and Sonic is still a pretty bad character. I think allowing him to have a fairly significant buff like this is okay. If you do more 1v1 against Sonic, learn to get around the spring spike, and focus more on the rest of his subpar onstage game, I think you'll realize he still isn't some broken character who's hard to defeat.

I think it's just as powerful/useful as Link's new arrows. Those things can gimp like a champ, are safe to use, and harder to avoid than Sonic's spring. But it's okay with everyone because Link still has the worst recovery in the entire game, and his advantages balance with his disadvantages.


Also, can Sonic's homing attack be sped up at all? I think the move is one of the most predictable in the entire game, and I know its slow charge speed has some uses, but I think if it charged faster it could still have those same uses, and be even more useful.

 

[GHNeko]

Also, can Sonic's homing attack be sped up at all? I think the move is one of the most predictable in the entire game, and I know its slow charge speed has some uses, but I think if it charged faster it could still have those same uses, and be even more useful.

B+ has already tried that. It litterally breaks the move to where it doesn't work right.

The best thing you can do for it is add damage.

This is before PSA though. <_<

 

[Steeler]

i thought today of something that i really thought should change, but forgot what. i'll repost/edit if i remember...

 

[NintenJoe]

would you guys be willing to add any characters to brawl as long as they're balanced enough? With this new SA being released, people are making broken characters like crazy... Would you accept new characters, given that they will be subject to change when added to BBrawl?

 

['V']

I don't think this will work at all.

 

[Winnar]

Link's arrows are cool.

I'm not saying Sonic is some broken character or something, I'm saying that the spring spike is completely inconsistent with everything dealing with edgeguarding and for all the wrong reasons.

P.S. Adding new characters seems like a kind of risky prospect for bBrawl, whose whole point is to make small changes to better the game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Let's say I make Viewtiful Joe.

First, the goal of this is to balance Brawl. Viewtiful Joe is not in Brawl, as much as I want him to be. No matter how well-made Viewtiful Joe is, even if he is magically of the same graphical and animation quality as the rest of the game and totally balanced, it is completely unreasonable to put him in the game.

Why? Players play a fighting game expecting to understand before hand all the characters they may fight as or against, and the matchups between them. It's one thing to say "Oh and BTW, these moves have more knockback" and it's already stretching things to say "Oh and BTW, Sonic's spring spikes you now, don't get hit." It's a whole 'nother to say "Oh and BTW, there are entirely new characters in the game that you've never played before. Meh, you're figure it out as you go probably."

Sure, there could be "Official BBrawl-Certified" additions that people could be able to downlaod and play around with ahead of time. But BBrawl is not it's own game, it is an extension of Brawl that is 99.99% interchangable with the original. We change move properties conservatively, change move timings almost never, change hitboxes sizes never, change physics attributes never EVER... so adding entire foreign characters, no matter the quality, is entirely out. This is a project about Brawl, and will stick to only the characters that are in Brawl.

Second, no one is going to make a professional model and full animation set (most people have no idea how many animations there are for each character) for a new character. We are only going to get scraped together bits and pieces from existing resources. Everyone knows that, so I'm not trying to rain on any parades here... but it is as issue with this topic.

Third, I will eat my hat if anyone, ever, makes a character with a unique, Smash-appropriate playstyle that has between 60:40 and 40:60 matchups with the entire normal cast.

 

[Linkshot]

At last part:

Quick, give Sandbag some moves!

Maybe Sonic's spring should attempt to stage spike them? Send them at a "backwards" angle that's consistent on both sides.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Third, I will eat my hat if anyone, ever, makes a character with a unique, Smash-appropriate playstyle that has between 60:40 and 40:60 matchups with the entire normal cast.

Get prepared to eat it. I am recreating Giga Bowser. Same effects, same trajectories...and buffs in terms of damage, and run speed, and arial mobility. It is going to be done sometime this week.

Any experienced player will be able to have a matchup in that range. Well, andy other ideas?

 

[Mit]

Get prepared to eat it. I am recreating Giga Bowser. Same effects, same trajectories...and buffs in terms of damage, and run speed, and arial mobility. It is going to be done sometime this week.

Any experienced player will be able to have a matchup in that range. Well, andy other ideas?

I think the fact that it's Giga Bowser throws out the "unique" part of the defined terms.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

I think the fact that it's Giga Bowser throws out the "unique" part of the defined terms.

Well, thats true.

But its gonna be amazing nontheless.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, cloning a character with only token changes sort of misses the point as far as my statement goes. I can make a unique moveset for Shadow, give him all sorts of remixed Sonic moves and darkness effects and different attributes, but he still is going to be hard pressed to be differentiated from Sonic.

Too many people think the difference between the characters comes down to animation style and special moves. These are the same type of people who thought Wolf and Falco were Fox clones, and that Ness and Lucas were practically the same character. In reality, the characters have a more fundamental underlying design that is their core. If the character is not built around a fundamental design, it brings nothing unique to the table.

No one wants to play as a "but". "This character is Sonic but..." or "This is a big slow character but..." Clouding existing design space would be a bad choice on our part, and the density of the broader design space is pretty high with the massive existing roster. Characters like ICs and Olimar are already pushing the limits balance-wise.

 

[MK26]

jigglypuff is kirby BUT with a weaker ground game and less efficient kill moves.

Therefore, Jiggly is a clone.

Therefore, Jiggz should never have been in Brawl.



But seriously, bBrawl isnt the place to ask for the inclusion of clone characters. Heck, Brawl+ shouldnt be either - I dont see "add extra characters" as a fundamental principle in either mod...

 

[Linkshot]

Shadow would be a fast ranged user. Just saying.

I agree with Olimar and IC :/ They're just *******s, heh. They have an extremely good aspect, and then an extremely bad one. It comes down to have to work with those to find a balance for them. They might have to end up hard countering some, but then others will have to hard counter them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just posting to say that the standard release is coming along very nicely, and the .gct end is essentially done (we have a few very small tweaks remaining possibly). However, there have been some BIG developments that, sadly, I can't really discuss yet. It's going to be a huge release, and again I stress, if there are any 11th hour concerns about the Genesis version's character balance, now is really the time to bring them up.

I know it's not very good hype to say "it will be great, can't get into it, no release date", but I do want people to know things are very busy behind the scenes with great results ready to follow.

 

[Mit]

Good to know, I look forward to it.

Also, might not be the best place to ask, but are there any good programs out there for compiling .gcts with over 256 lines of code? Ocarina is useless. The only program I found was the one they use for Brawl+.

I need one because I use texture hacks and the Balanced Brawl .gct doesn't include the texture hack code, so I had to make my own. However, using the Brawl+ program, I had to load the texture code (so far so good), then load the Genesis BBrawl .gct, and if I touched anything, like, to look at the BBrawl .gct to turn on/off some extra features, the entire codeset would vanish. So I just had to compile it at defaults, + texture hack.

It was a hassle though, and if there's something better out there (there's gotta be) I'd like to use it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I use the cheat code manager v1.2.

Either way, I know it's forward looking, but the standard release will include alongside it a version with file replacement and a PAL version (the PAL version isn't done yet, but we're going to release with it available).

 

[Steeler]

yeah i have an 11th hour concern.

make squirtle's water gun into ice beam

 

[MK26]

"bBrawl: gets **** done."

Can't you give us a sneak peek? Make Kirby's water gun an ice beam too?

Are you guys going to dabble in PSA?

 

[NintenJoe]

its supposed to play like brawl, so I doubt it. I'll get more hyped about this once the official version one comes out.

 

[Winnar]

My only complaint is the spring spike, but I posted about that earlier.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

No IC change? They have the freaking chaingrabs (I think I might've missed it in the character specs)

 

[Stealth Raptor]

there is a newer code coming out that should address it

 

[adumbrodeus]

No IC change? They have the freaking chaingrabs (I think I might've missed it in the character specs)

A little difficult to address unfortunately.

 

[Linkshot]

Project SA has taught us that Nana has her own file, so we can actually tweak Nana to be a little ***** when we tell her to grab :D

I think it's even possible to turn all of Nana's throws into uThrow.

 

[Adapt]

yeah i have an 11th hour concern.

make squirtle's water gun into ice beam

Do this! but only the uncharged spray version and leave the water pushback effect as it is. Maybe mess with it a bit more so squirtle can get an aerial to combo after a successful freeze

 

[ぱみゅ]

I was thinking about an improved angle (diagonal/upwards) and little knockback on Fox's Ftilt, so it can be combo'ed easly

 

[Mit]

It sounds like some of you are confused about which Brawl mod this is...

 

[Stoten]

Edit: I was having trouble with the code. I got it working now though.

 

[Linkshot]

Ampharos, Thinkaman:

Are you going to use Project SA to "correct" the IC chaingrabs? Or would that require too drastic of a change?