Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Amazing Ampharos]

You can avoid Snake's dthrow regrab with the whole cast; Snake has to predict you to get a regrab (he can't regrab on reaction at all...). It's harder for Charizard in specific because he can't roll behind Snake, but even he can avoid it if he predicts correctly. I should stress a simple point that it's okay for Snake to have something really powerful; Snake has a large number of crippling natural disadvantages, and it's his basic design that he has really powerful things to make up for that. I've never seen his dthrow stand out as a huge problem (though it is obviously a really good move), and I don't think Snake is fundamentally imbalanced because of it.

 

[Linkshot]

I think it's the fact that G&W has more trouble predicting and does less damage with his own.

For inherent balance, since Snake already has powerful options, Snake's dThrow should be weakened.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Consider G&W on a whole has a more consistent moveset than Snake. Nerfing one of Snakes good moves drastically will obviously make him worse, while G&W doesn't care so much because of his numerous choices. I still think something minor should be done to the dthrow, but I can see how it's a tricky situation.

 

[TheUltimateMario]

Then why are you in this thread? <_>

I was just sharing my opinion, like everyone else.

 

[Linkshot]

We prefer negativity to stay away :/

I do think something minor should be done to dThrow. It just does completely unrealistic damage.

 

[Atown]

Hmm, you gota have a hacked wii to play this right? so how can everyone enjoy this balanced brawl....I mean it sounds like a good idea, but will this ever show up in tournaments?

 

[jalued]

Hmm, you gota have a hacked wii to play this right? so how can everyone enjoy this balanced brawl....I mean it sounds like a good idea, but will this ever show up in tournaments?

no proberbly not. its also kinda unknown how balance it is anyway, since there are no tourney results for it

 

[Suntan Luigi]

They will eventually release a standard version where you will not be required to hack your wii. As for now, wii hacking is not that difficult, you only need an SD card to do it. Go on Google to find out how to do it.

 

[Scipion121212]

It's not an infinite if it relies on you reading someone correctly, whether it be prediction or reaction. What that means is you got read...

I am quite sure you are not right. Some (maybe many) infinites needs to react on DI. To name only I can think of Fhanfhus loop (Nair-footstool falcon infinite on ROB). There isn´t much difference between reacting on DI and on teching..

 

[Mit]

They will eventually release a standard version where you will not be required to hack your wii.

Some (maybe many) infinites needs to react on DI. To name only I can think of Fhanfhus loop (Nair-footstool falcon infinite on ROB).

Fhanfhus loop doesn't require DI reaction at all. It's just first-hit-nair -> footstool over and over and over again. The ROB can't do anything so long as you keep your timing right (which isn't very easy).

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it sounds similar to pikachus uair-footstool-qal lol

 

[Atown]

They will eventually release a standard version where you will not be required to hack your wii. As for now, wii hacking is not that difficult, you only need an SD card to do it. Go on Google to find out how to do it.

Well **** if they do that, this thing could actually be pretty big. A standard version which requires no hacking. Then everyone could do it, AND this could actually become something bigger. You cant really say this balanced brawl is crap comparing other games out there, Like ban lists and all that stuff. If u release updates on a fighting game that would balance **** out then the game will have more replay value especially when theres people quitting brawl because of meta. Im not the one to judge on what things should be, but I will agree if theres somethin to make things more fair.

 

[Mit]

Well **** if they do that, this thing could actually be pretty big. A standard version which requires no hacking. Then everyone could do it, AND this could actually become something bigger. You cant really say this balanced brawl is crap comparing other games out there, Like ban lists and all that stuff. If u release updates on a fighting game that would balance **** out then the game will have more replay value especially when theres people quitting brawl because of meta. Im not the one to judge on what things should be, but I will agree if theres somethin to make things more fair.

As of now it's impossible to hack a game without hacking your Wii, and I don't think anyone's finding a way around that anytime soon. I've got no clue what that guy thinks he's talking about.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Impossible is a word people use to feel good about themselves when they quit.

Man, I hope everyone in this topic has played Skies of Arcadia...

 

[Big O]

^^^Lol that game was pretty awesome.

I'm just going to assume you guys have something in mind, although I'm sure the Brawl + are trying to do the same thing. If bannerbomb could launch gecko then I'm sure it would work without permanently hacking your Wii. The source code was released for it so it probably could happen i the hackers are willing to go for it.

 

[Atown]

As of now it's impossible to hack a game without hacking your Wii, and I don't think anyone's finding a way around that anytime soon. I've got no clue what that guy thinks he's talking about.

Guess you dont understand then. Why make a game balance if the only way people can enjoy it is by hacking their wiis. This will never end up in tournaments then. Thats what I am talkin about.

 

[Eldiran]

Guess you dont understand then. Why make a game balance if the only way people can enjoy it is by hacking their wiis. This will never end up in tournaments then. Thats what I am talkin about.

Well, for one, those of us with hacked Wiis can enjoy it. It's fun to use even outside of tournaments. Also, the people who organize tournaments are usually pretty into Smash Bros. -- it's not too much of a stretch to expect a fair amount of them might have hacked Wiis (if only to get these hacks). So, even if this set of changes isn't usable without codes, there's still a good chance it'll end up used in a tournament someday. Until then, we just get to have fun with it.

 

[Mit]

Man, I hope everyone in this topic has played Skies of Arcadia...

I have played Skies of Arcadia Note the "as of now".

But really, is anyone on the verge of some breakthrough that allows you to do something like insert an SD card and instantly be able to play a Wii game with codes? The process of hacking right now is already quite simple, but there's a few fundamental things in that process that you aren't going to replicate at the touch of a button. I don't think it's out of the question to see BBrawl tournaments either, mainly because, as the mission statement for this whole thing goes, anyone who plays vanilla Brawl should be able to pick up BBrawl and start playing, only the game is better balanced with more character/stage viability. If it gets popular, people will hack their Wiis for it. I did, and it only took me an hour or two (could've taken less time if there was slightly better documentation out there...).

However, stating it as fact that there was going to be some magical standalone version for non-hacked Wiis, peeves me a bit. I'm not saying it's impossible, but no one's come out and said it's gonna happen.

Guess you dont understand then. Why make a game balance if the only way people can enjoy it is by hacking their wiis. This will never end up in tournaments then. Thats what I am talkin about.

Uh, I get your point, I was just telling you that it isn't a fact that this is going to somehow be released standalone in the future. See above at how I do think this has a better chance at showing up at tournaments, though.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Well, for one, those of us with hacked Wiis can enjoy it. It's fun to use even outside of tournaments. Also, the people who organize tournaments are usually pretty into Smash Bros. -- it's not too much of a stretch to expect a fair amount of them might have hacked Wiis (if only to get these hacks). So, even if this set of changes isn't usable without codes, there's still a good chance it'll end up used in a tournament someday. Until then, we just get to have fun with it.

Exactly. I mean, Brawl+ has been used in tournaments, why can't this be used as well?

edit: what Mit said is true also.

 

[MK26]

Guess you dont understand then. Why make a game balance if the only way people can enjoy it is by hacking their wiis. This will never end up in tournaments then. Thats what I am talkin about.

It's attitudes like this that are holding back the hacking community. "Hacking" your Wii should take no more than 5 minutes from turning the Wii on to starting the game, cannot cause any permanent damage to the Wii (the worst you'll get is the occasional freeze), and is completely reversable at any time, as long as you don't wade into the legal quagmire known as hard-modding.

There have already been Brawl+ tournaments, as both side events and stand-alones. Given time, there will be bBrawl tourneys. Don't write it off just because it's not straight out of the box, or not "how the creators intended it", or stupid **** like that. Try it before you bash it, and afterward decide whether or not you like it (To say I'm not a hypocrite, I did test out bBrawl for a while, but found the gameplay was still too vBrawl-esqe to prefer over +). I absolutely hate it when people come to the Workshop only to say "you'll inevitably fail, so don't even try."

I don't want to sound too mean, but get informed before you start talking ****.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

It's attitudes like this that are holding back the hacking community. "Hacking" your Wii should take no more than 5 minutes from turning the Wii on to starting the game, cannot cause any permanent damage to the Wii (the worst you'll get is the occasional freeze), and is completely reversable at any time, as long as you don't wade into the legal quagmire known as hard-modding.

There have already been Brawl+ tournaments, as both side events and stand-alones. Given time, there will be bBrawl tourneys. Don't write it off just because it's not straight out of the box, or not "how the creators intended it", or stupid **** like that. Try it before you bash it, and afterward decide whether or not you like it (To say I'm not a hypocrite, I did test out bBrawl for a while, but found the gameplay was still too vBrawl-esqe to prefer over +). I absolutely hate it when people come to the Workshop only to say "you'll inevitably fail, so don't even try."

I don't want to sound too mean, but get informed before you start talking ****.

This is absolutely correct. If you do not know what hacking will do, you can't say stupid things like "oh, hacking will make the Wii break." Learn about what hacking does to Wiis (it does NOTHING bad to them) before you say what it will do.

 

[Steeler]

It's harder for Charizard in specific because he can't roll behind Snake, but even he can avoid it if he predicts correctly.

here's an in depth thread on snake's dthrow and how it ***** some characters.

charizard is not in a position to predict snake's action, because snake doesn't have to predict anything, he can just REACT to charizard's actions. and that's what makes it so powerful. this is the case with some other characters but at least they can get behind snake in the first place.

snake not moving at all and shielding covers 3 of charizard's 4 options (5 if you count "not doing anything", which eventually forces you to stand up). you can roll away from snake but he can either predict this and dash grab or shield drop ftilt on reaction. which is still slightly over 30% fresh from one grab. it's really the only option that doesn't get ***** by snake just standing there and shielding so it's not that difficult for snake to predict

charizard not moving is just asking for snake to jump cancel his shield and dair, leading to slightly over 40% fresh.

and then there's that thing about charizard being really easy for snake to pivot grab due to his huge hurtbox (mainly due to his head and neck sticking out from where he is actually standing) and snake having an answer for every approach charizard has. and having excellent camping. and terrific melee range.

it's bad. a 30-70 matchup at least.

read this thread if you want to hear more stuff from SuSa.

assuming a pokemon switch modification is implemented, then it's not as much of a big deal because you can more feasibly switch charizard out without dying as charizard or getting hit with something or grabbed when squirtle comes out, who is ranked 4th easiest for snakes to dthrow tech chase. meaning you get ***** anyway but not as badly.

 

[codfish92]

This is absolutely correct. If you do not know what hacking will do, you can't say stupid things like "oh, hacking will make the Wii break." Learn about what hacking does to Wiis (it does NOTHING bad to them) before you say what it will do.

in reality, were not even truly "hacking the wii", ur just doing a softmod, or putting on a software that isn't licensed or accepted by Nintendo. this is way less dangerous then actual hacking of consoles. hacking would be replacing it's OS to run different, or replacing the whole OS, and or changing it's hardware. the HBC is simply a program. Think of it as a gameshark or action replay, but isn't restricted to cheats. were modding the wii, were not "hacking it". the program can be removed very easily, with no repercussions.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

in reality, were not even truly "hacking the wii", ur just doing a softmod, or putting on a software that isn't licensed or accepted by Nintendo. this is way less dangerous then actual hacking of consoles. hacking would be replacing it's OS to run different, or replacing the whole OS, and or changing it's hardware. the HBC is simply a program. Think of it as a gameshark or action replay, but isn't restricted to cheats. were modding the wii, were not "hacking it". the program can be removed very easily, with no repercussions.

Yeah, but we hack the game. Or you could use the word "mod", whatever.

 

[Atown]

Well first of all, im not tryin to stop the hacking community, I hacked my Wii myself. Second, Im a cometitive player, I want to strive to be the best, so if this would help balance the game out then by all means go ahead. Just thinking if this will be the standard at all tournaments. I kno theres brawl + tournaments, just none around my area. Im seeing this as a huge update for me because I play Ike, once i saw the videos of this mod I thought, well **** this could actually be something big. Seein how fighting games and other games are being played now, i dont see why mods cant be added to tournaments as a standard to balance the game. And dont say im talkin ****, im just givin an opinion. So dont hate haters.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I must have misread something somewhere but I thought I saw something like "The final version will not require you to mod your Wii".

 

[cookieM0Nster]

I must have misread something somewhere but I thought I saw something like "The final version will not require you to mod your Wii".

You are wrong. That was inaccurate.

 

[Delta Z]

So...uh...any progress made lately?

 

[Suntan Luigi]

In order to run the .gct file (which is the code file), you will need a modern version of Gecko OS (such as 1.9.1) and the gameconfig.txt file on the root of your SD card. Both of these are generally available and easy to find. You will also need some way to launch Gecko OS which, by SWF rules, we are forbidden to supply support on. Future, final releases will be executable on unhacked Wiis.

.................

 

[codfish92]

OH SNAP!!!!!, suntan luigi just brought the smack down.

on the note of snakes dthrow, would it be possible to add knock back to it so it actually throws people(it would look weird, but it's just an idea). it would solve this whole issue.

 

[Linkshot]

That would change the whole mechanics of the move. I was at a tourney last night (vBrawl) and watching Snake continuously dThrow people. The damage from that is far too much. dThrow should do, at most, 5 damage.

 

[Eldiran]

Certainly it's a very powerful move... but does Snake, on the whole, need a nerf? Is he still far above the rest of the cast? (I don't actually know. But if not, there's no need to change this move.)

 

[Thinkaman]

You want my personal observations? The initial Snake (super-nerfed u-tilt) was not very fun but still very viable. With his u-tilt tweaked to find that right level, Snake was very good, one of the best several characters. (I imagine most people would have put this Snake in their top 5 or 6 characters at the time.)

After we added -1% to Snake f-tilt damage, Snake was knocked down just a tad. More importantly, Snake is very directly affected by buffs to low-tiers... especially compared to say Meta Knight and Diddy. If you tried to tell me that Ivysaur vs. Snake was 65/35, I'd believe you.

Snake also currently has a slightly stronger d-smash. Testers joke that this is "another nerf" when Snake dies to it himself, but obviously good Snake players can control space well to make sure the claymore is more likely to inhibit the opponent. (Plus, Snake is typically heavier.) It isn't that much stronger, but the fact that it is fire element is of interest to that pesky Ivysaur...

Overall, I consider Snake very similar to Diddy now. The character has unique mechanics that allow players to express a lot of creativity, so there is a higher learning curve and maybe slightly higher skill ceiling.

Snake d-throw is a good move, but so is Rock Smash, Pit Arrows, Olimar grabs, Diddy Bananas, Meta Knight dair, Falco lasers, and plenty of other things. Snake doesn't show any signs of needing a nerf at this time.

 

[Linkshot]

EDIT: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ignore everything in my post that Thinkaman just said XDDD
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I think he is still quite far above everybody..I can't see what his playstyle is supposed to be, other than just "**** the entire cast".

He's...Snake. I think he just needs to be forced to put more effort into damaging before he can kill. His 'nades need less damage and knockback. His dSmash actually needs more kill potential, IMO. I think there should be less BKB on uSmash, much less knockback on Dash, second hit of fTilt, last hit of Jab...dTilt should trip. uThrow should do the most damage, IMO, out of his throws. His fSmash is perfect the way it is.

I think the biggest change on Snake would be removing the furthest hitbox on uTilt. There is seriously no justification for it being that length. Nikita should also be weaker than Samus' homing missile in every way.

 

[Thinkaman]

EDIT: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ignore everything in my post that Thinkaman just said XDDD
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I think he is still quite far above everybody..I can't see what his playstyle is supposed to be, other than just "**** the entire cast".

He's...Snake. I think he just needs to be forced to put more effort into damaging before he can kill. His 'nades need less damage and knockback. His dSmash actually needs more kill potential, IMO. I think there should be less BKB on uSmash, much less knockback on Dash, second hit of fTilt, last hit of Jab...dTilt should trip. uThrow should do the most damage, IMO, out of his throws. His fSmash is perfect the way it is.

I think the biggest change on Snake would be removing the furthest hitbox on uTilt. There is seriously no justification for it being that length. Nikita should also be weaker than Samus' homing missile in every way.

The character you are describing would be generally awful and have very little reason to be played.

The key thing to remember is that for Snake, u-tilt = death. Most Snake kills come from u-tilt; only when he is punishing a mistake can he really get in an aerial or C4 or f-smash. Making snake's u-tilt KO later has forced snake to deal more damage every stock... as Ampharos said, Snake is "very sensitive to u-tilt changes".

Also, did you really just ask for Nikita to be nerfed?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

.................

hmm... Well, perhaps.

 

[Linkshot]

Hm, well...I dunno. Snake just seems to powerful, even in the Genesis Update videos, it felt like he killed and ravaged the countryside just as easily.

 

[Thinkaman]

Pretty much any character can look amazing when the cards fall right, especially in the hands of a skilled player with an affinity for flair. That's what combos videos are all about, after all.

 

[SaltyKracka]

On the other hand, though, why should Snake, a character who already has incredibly powerful and damaging moves in the rest of his moveset anyways, retain a grab that does more than every other grab on all but a few characters, as well as setting up techchases and infinites? If you can't do anything about the way the grab itself works, you can at least do something like halving the damage it does. Snake should not have the ability to absolutely destroy a character's percent through the use of only one move. How is this not completely obvious?

 

[Thinkaman]

This would be true if Snake *did* routinely do d-throw chains for a ton of damage. However, that just isn't reality. The last circuit event around here was won by a Snake, and I didn't see any d-throw madness. He leveraged it merely like a player does any good move, not to do 50%+ damage chains. The only Snake I've ever played who can routinely regrab me out of d-throw is Joker, who is a really good player with excellent reading skills.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a bad idea. In fact, if I had to nerf one more thing about snake, it would most likely be d-throw. I'm just not seeing the need to do that. In the same way, if I had to buff something, I'd add a little base knockback on C4. Just because we've identified what the best change to make would be doesn't prove that there needs to be a change in the first place.