Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[BombKirby]

do you have gameconfig.txt file at the root of ur sd card?

Yep

I'll redownload it later. Maybe something messed up there.

 

[codfish92]

try downgrading to gecko OS 1.9.1. 1.9.2 has been having trouble

 

[Linkshot]

Spear Pillar is one of the worst stages competitively. You will never see an accountable match happen there.

 

[BombKirby]

Spear Pillar is one of the worst stages competitively. You will never see an accountable match happen there.

U can counter pick ANY where u want if ur opponent agrees at a lot of tournaments. I've been to Spear Pillar, Hanenbow, Mushroomy Kingdom and crap. It makes it crazy funny.

And Okay I'll get a newer OS. I got a fairly old one!

 

[Linkshot]

Personally, if I was a TO, there would be hardbanned stages. Meaning under no circumstances can you pick them because they delay tournament time by stalling.

ANYWAY

Back to Balanced Brawl discussion.

If an SD Card capable of storing the information needed for bBrawl costs less than $15 CAD, I can go out right now and get one.

EDIT: At that point, I will extensively research at which point each reliable move kills, check range, etc, to determine if there are any broken strategies that needs to be worked around.

 

[codfish92]

even though ganon is way better, i feel that the down tilt always tripping was somewhat of a nerf. it was nice to side b then d tilt immediately for a good damage and kill move(at like 120%). it also seems weird that a move that was so powerful only trip. but the combo possibilities might overwrite that. i dunno i just liked the dtilt with power better.

 

[SaltyKracka]

You want suggestions that would really fix the bad matchups Ganon has?

Give him moves that let him punish out of shield. Give him a jab that takes 5 frames to work, instead of 8. Improve his grab range to something that isn't utter crap. Make all of his aerials useful, not just uair and dair. Make WP useful for something. Give him super armor or invinciblity frames on his laggy-*** moves. Any of those, and you've actually changed his MUs, not just given him half-useless crap, and half stuff that doesn't actually address his gameplay issues.

 

[Linkshot]

Got my SD Card. Gonna see how "****ty" Ganondorf is >.>

Does UpB have invincibility on startup?

 

[SaltyKracka]

No. Hell, it barely has anything that resembles priority, being a grab move with a horrible hitbox.

 

[Thinkaman]

Again, Ganon money matches anyone?

 

[codfish92]

i said he was good, i was just asking about the d-tilt!!!

 

[SaltyKracka]

Again, Ganon money matches anyone?

Sure. Just let me finish my teleporter first.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Is there any time estimate about when the final version will be released? I'm not trying to put pressure on anyone or something like that, but I was just curious on when the developers predict this to be all finished and standardized. I have high hopes for this project, and I think it really could replace vBrawl for tournaments.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You want suggestions that would really fix the bad matchups Ganon has?

Give him moves that let him punish out of shield. Give him a jab that takes 5 frames to work, instead of 8. Improve his grab range to something that isn't utter crap. Make all of his aerials useful, not just uair and dair. Make WP useful for something. Give him super armor or invinciblity frames on his laggy-*** moves. Any of those, and you've actually changed his MUs, not just given him half-useless crap, and half stuff that doesn't actually address his gameplay issues.

"Make Ganon into every other character"

It would be so easy to balance Ganon... and everybody if we used this style of balance, removing the weaknesses. The trick is to retain what defines the characters, which consists of both strengths and weaknesses, in balancing them. With Ganon, we decided very early "absolutely no speed buffs" because his horrible speed in every way is the most defining part of his character. Of course, he hits hard enough to compensate, and by keeping him slow in every way (instead of just slow in most ways), we also keep him distinct from Bowser, DK, Ike, and the other heavyweights. The grab thing is actually pretty workable on Ganon. Ganon's grabs aren't the easiest things to land (but are seriously not that hard, no harder for me than landing Mr. Game & Watch grabs), but he does so much damage out of them, more than anyone else who isn't doing a cg really.

It's very obvious spending time with Ganondorf that nothing we've given him is "half-useless crap"; it's just so obvious that he's a ton better by playing as him. If we were to "actually address his gameplay issues", as you seem to mention, it would just be turning him into DK, Bowser, Ike, or some other character and not leaving him as Ganondorf (if you mean in specific the way his Dark Dive grab is punishable on hit, it's harder to punish in the currently published versions and set to be fully unpunishable in the final version). Ganondorf is about massively struggling to land anything and then getting such a huge reward when you do that the struggle totally pays off. If you don't have good "mindgames", Ganondorf is probably the worst character to use because you really have to earn every hit, but the pay-off is just plain worth it. Making it easier for him to land hits just totally defies this purpose; even if it were indeed a far easier way of balancing him, it would be giving up on Ganondorf and accepting Ike2.

To be very blunt, I don't really see why a Ganondorf user would be upset at what we've done. Standard Brawl is our baseline, and Ganondorf received massive buffs regardless. I don't understand why you'd complain about having a massively buffed main...

As per an estimated release time, I can't offer one for reasons I can't get into. Sorry to be so vague like this, but when it does come, all will be clear and all will be happy.

 

[BombKirby]

Brawl+ > What we wanted Brawl to be before its release+Balance
BBrawl > What Brawl is now+Balance

What do you mean WE?

I personally think the hit lag destroyed B+.

In a normal 2D fighter there is always a way to counter act a move. For example, some projectiles are meant to be hopped over or some involve shooting a projectile of equal priority. But all projectiles have a way to be "beaten." In a deeper sense, BlazBlu/Guilty Gear they give you this little "burst" move which blasts characters away in they are comboing you (but does no damage) but it can be done only 1 to 3 times a match. In B+ if your hit....your gonna be comboed untill they screw up! Every one is like an infinite chain grabber! Didn't u see that gif in that guy's sig where C Falcon effortlessly combos ROB from 20% to death?

Keep in mind Smash games r always designed as party games so I don't think "WE" all wanted it to be a "fast paced" "balanced" 1v1 game.







In other news. Just wondering but are the IC CGs ALL gone? I didnt try them yet and can't play again till tommorow!

 

[dabridge]

What do you mean WE?

I personally think the hit lag destroyed B+.

In a normal 2D fighter there is always a way to counter act a move. For example, some projectiles are meant to be hopped over or some involve shooting a projectile of equal priority. But all projectiles have a way to be "beaten." In a deeper sense, BlazBlu/Guilty Gear they give you this little "burst" move which blasts characters away in they are comboing you (but does no damage) but it can be done only 1 to 3 times a match. In B+ if your hit....your gonna be comboed untill they screw up! Every one is like an infinite chain grabber! Didn't u see that gif in that guy's sig where C Falcon effortlessly combos ROB from 20% to death?

Keep in mind Smash games r always designed as party games so I don't think "WE" all wanted it to be a "fast paced" "balanced" 1v1 game.

Stop mentioning Brawl+ in this topic. If you don't like it, that's fine, but you don't need to say why. It's just an invitation to start a flamewar, which aren't needed.

 

[codfish92]

what dabridge said. criticizing brawl+ or BBrawl is just going to make things ugly. very ugly. best to leave Brawl+ in the Brawl+ threads and the BBrawl things here.

 

[Thinkaman]

In other news. Just wondering but are the IC CGs ALL gone? I didnt try them yet and can't play again till tommorow!

None of the public verisons have IC changes. If you are interested in IC testing specifically, contact me.

 

[Anomilus]

I would love to know exactly what are the newest changes to Ganondorf. Has all of his aerials been buffed decently? (BAir and FAir killing sooner, NAir being easier to hit with both hitboxes and having a bit more knockback.....IMO of course)

Are you removing that triple jump glitch? I've been recently starting to see how it really does hinder Ganon, and not in a way that can be justified as being "another one of his weaknesses". Ganon has to work hard to escape being beat downs at times. He gets knocked off the stage, and by either luck or good prediction and stuff, Ganon recovers.... only for him to be completely opened by that landing lag and get put right back in the situation other characters would have escaped from in the same situation.

Okay you guys already know how that goes, but I'm worried that hasn't been removed. I'm sure at one point you were even trying to justify its existence as something Ganons should plan for. But we don't have much at all to work with already! It's a real effort to avoid gimping, and it just isn't fair to quite literally be punished for successfully getting past your opponent. It's frustrating as well knowing had that glitch not been there, I could have turned things around and punished my opponent for thinking they could just about-face and beat up on me even more. So here's hoping you guys, if you are truly sincere about making Ganon better, removed something so useless, discriminate, and detrimental.

 

[Linkshot]

I have bBrawl on my Wii now, and am open to testing if it helps, although I'm worried my location is an inconvenience.

 

[codfish92]

currently trying to get better at IC's chaingrab. i would be open to testing as well.

 

[Mit]

Are you removing that triple jump glitch? I've been recently starting to see how it really does hinder Ganon, and not in a way that can be justified as being "another one of his weaknesses". Ganon has to work hard to escape being beat downs at times. He gets knocked off the stage, and by either luck or good prediction and stuff, Ganon recovers.... only for him to be completely opened by that landing lag and get put right back in the situation other characters would have escaped from in the same situation.

I, too, am still wondering about this. I asked about a million times in this thread a while back and never got an answer. I occasionally forget to cancel it sometimes with Falcon, and it's very annoying when it happens, and usually winds up getting me damaged by my opponent.

 

[Revven]

I, too, am still wondering about this. I asked about a million times in this thread a while back and never got an answer. I occasionally forget to cancel it sometimes with Falcon, and it's very annoying when it happens, and usually winds up getting me damaged by my opponent.

Tentatively, they said that they weren't going to take it out because they feel it's actually apart of the game's engine, rather than being a glitch. However, then they said they were going to discuss it and that it's up in the air.

So... likely, it's going to lean to a no but, it'd be really good if they took it out... as get this it helps Ganon and Falcon out BOTH characters who people are currently complaining about not receiving enough help! OH MY! How convenient.

 

[TreK]

Which characters are affected by 3rd jump glitch ?
I know Marth, Luigi and Ganon are for I play them, plus CF apparently, who else ?

I think it should be removed too, btw. Nothing good comes out of it and it's character specific so most people don't know about it anyway ; it won't make them change their ledge game against the victims of it.

 

[Thinkaman]

We decided to use the triple jump fix a couple of weeks ago, after the Genesis update, and all recent internal tests have used it.

This is an example of a case where neither Ampharos and I thought a change was needed, but unanimous community feedback from testers made the difference. Thanks guys, we're continuing to count on you as we wrap up a few final tweaks and tests.

And off the top of my head, Mario and Luigi are affected too.

 

[Eldiran]

I also endorse its removal. It doesn't really contribute anything.

EDIT: Whoops! Cast my vote after the fact. Thanks Thinkaman!

 

[SaltyKracka]

"Make Ganon into every other character"

Take a post and read something into it that isn't there.

It would be so easy to balance Ganon... and everybody if we used this style of balance, removing the weaknesses. The trick is to retain what defines the characters, which consists of both strengths and weaknesses, in balancing them. With Ganon, we decided very early "absolutely no speed buffs" because his horrible speed in every way is the most defining part of his character. Of course, he hits hard enough to compensate, and by keeping him slow in every way (instead of just slow in most ways), we also keep him distinct from Bowser, DK, Ike, and the other heavyweights.

That. Right there. You're kinda...y'know...wrong. He doesn't really hit hard enough to compensate for the fact that he pretty much has to decay every single one of his kill moves in order to deal enough damage to put opponents into kill range. It's the reason that most Ganons actually get a large amount of their kills off of tipman gimps and spikes. He doesn't have any moves that he can use to rack damage that aren't also used to kill besides his current dtilt and FC. Knockback decay absolutely ruins his killing power, and the fact that it's so hard to hit with his moves means that he will be decaying them a LOT.

The grab thing is actually pretty workable on Ganon. Ganon's grabs aren't the easiest things to land (but are seriously not that hard, no harder for me than landing Mr. Game & Watch grabs), but he does so much damage out of them, more than anyone else who isn't doing a cg really.

This would be true, except for one thing. Ganondorf has the ABSOLUTE worst grab range in the game, and his grab is on par with Zelda's for speed. It's easier to grab people with ANYBODY than Ganon. Yes, the pummel is great. Yes, ONE of his grabs is useful for dealing damage, and another is useful for placing opponents. However, none of this changes the fact that his grab is practically useless. He can't shieldgrab unless the opponent screws up royally, and any Ganon charging at somebody intending to dashgrab (which by the way is still worse than many others) is just asking to get punished. Ganon's grab game is basically a nonentity as far as the rest of his metagame goes, and it's for those reasons.

It's very obvious spending time with Ganondorf that nothing we've given him is "half-useless crap"; it's just so obvious that he's a ton better by playing as him.

Everything done involving aerial Wizkick. Absolutely everything. Damage increases on the Dive count too, since it's apparently still entirely punishable, as well as the part where no one should ever be getting hit by any part of it anyways. Everything else, I enjoy greatly and applaud you for.

To be very blunt, I don't really see why a Ganondorf user would be upset at what we've done. Standard Brawl is our baseline, and Ganondorf received massive buffs regardless. I don't understand why you'd complain about having a massively buffed main...

Buffs? Oh yes, very much. Massive buffs? Hardly. That's the basis of my complaints, really. Part of the stuff you've given him improves his game, no doubt. However, most of the stuff that you've actually given him amounts to, "Here, we've added some stuff you didn't need and doesn't address your problems. Now learn to use it, and like it." That's not massive buffs. That's throwing things in and pretending that they're going to be an improvement because, y'know, if you added something, it has to be an improvement, right? There's no chance of it being something that nobody's going to use and won't affect gameplay at all, just like ZSS's Fsmash, Sonic's dair, or CF's dtilt.

If we were to "actually address his gameplay issues", as you seem to mention, it would just be turning him into DK, Bowser, Ike, or some other character and not leaving him as Ganondorf (if you mean in specific the way his Dark Dive grab is punishable on hit, it's harder to punish in the currently published versions and set to be fully unpunishable in the final version). Ganondorf is about massively struggling to land anything and then getting such a huge reward when you do that the struggle totally pays off. If you don't have good "mindgames", Ganondorf is probably the worst character to use because you really have to earn every hit, but the pay-off is just plain worth it. Making it easier for him to land hits just totally defies this purpose; even if it were indeed a far easier way of balancing him, it would be giving up on Ganondorf and accepting Ike2.

Now this is the part that just makes me angry whenever I read it. Aside from the sheer fallacy of your claims that one change will make Ganon's gameplay so much similar to one of the other heavyweights that it'll outweight any possible improvement to him, it's little more than an excuse. An excuse to wave in the faces of those who ask, and distract them from the fact that you are unwilling to do anything.

Now, shall we address your argument? Ganon, in his current metagame, is about baiting and punishing, and then taking advantage of momentum to ensure that his opponent cannot recover their balance. He does this mainly by three things. The first is obviously things such as thunderstorming, or autocanceled aerials turned into attacks to punish whiffs. And Ganon NEEDS the opponent to screw up for his current metagame to work, since he basically consists of moves that are not only unsafe, but more unsafe than any other moves in the game. The second is, also obviously, techchasing via FC, which most Ganons will use less to actually deal damage and combo, and more to reset momentum and force the opponent into a bad positions. The third is actually gimping, which is actually necessary for him to actually get kills at non-ridiculous percents without large amounts of luck or lag.

Now, let us examine the other heavyweightspower characters. Little though I know of Bowser's metagame, what I have seen from playing the odd one or two is that they are entirely based around their shield, with OoS Fortress being a safe option to punish many, many things and a key portion of their game. Donkey Kong, on the other hand, has very powerful attacks, moves which let him set up kills and gimps, and an UpB which is also useful to punish OoS. However, their game mostly revolves around spacing with their Wall of Bair, and using their extraodinary tilts to keep their opponents out and rack damage, waiting for the kill. Next, Ike, the character you explicitly compared Ganon to, and undoubtedly the most buffed character in BBrawl. His actual game mostly consists of spacing Fairs and nairs in order to get inside the opponent, and then using his jab to rack damage any number of ways, after which, he can go for the kill with one of his tilts or the risky smashes, which are normally barely utilized. He's actually more analogous to Marth for his emphasis on spacing, rather than Ganon. There are also Dedede and Snake to be compared, but since Ganon has neither a projectile or a good recovery, that is irrelevant. Much the same goes for Link.

But you know what? I digress. What I would ask for, and be so very gleeful, as would most of the Ganon boards, to recieve as an improvement to Ganon is a safe move. A safe poke. It does not have to be damaging. It does not have to have much knockback. In fact, it could even work one of two ways, such as either speeding up his jab and nerfing damage and knockback, or even just giving one of his faster moves enough shieldstun and pushback to make blocking it safe on most characters. But it would be the right buff to give him, one that addresses his problems without actually breaking his character concept. After all, why should Ganon be the only character in the game without any moves that are safe for him?

 

[Anomilus]

I would say Bowser's play style is much alike the name of his best move: Fortress. Bowser plays a very patient game much like Ganondorf. But how it works is much different. Bowser can be very dangerous to approach without a projectile; Even with one, you gotta approach cautiously. Bowser has good range with his A attacks and Fire Breath (though they claim Fire Breath is worthless thanks to DI). Bowser also has his grab game and excellent grab-release, and the Flying Slam, which is capable of quickly snatching up the opponent if their spacing is so much as slightly off.

Bowser basically moves slow and plays the immovable, impenetrable fortress, repelling and punishing those who try to approach him. Should anybody successfully get in, that's when Whirling Fortress quickly halts any momentum building and attempts to quickly reset the scenario, which favors Bowser.

Ganon could not possibly pull this off as well. He has DTilt's range, but that's only one option. He can Thunderstorm or Tipman UAir, but the former doesn't have the same range, and the latter requires him to face away from his opponent. His Flame Choke is nice for punishing, but it's much riskier and requires more commitment. As stated clearly, his grab range sucks and even then he doesn't have too many good options with it. No OoS options. Extremely difficult to escape if the opponent gets in.

I get Amp and Thinka's argument that great effort and trial for great returns and rewards is Ganon's style, but I also understand Salty in that Ganon simply has so fewer decent options than the rest of the cast. Landing risky moves is great! Spending 90% of a match trying to land risky moves is not so great. Having a relatively low pool of options in which to attempt risky maneuvers is quite annoying.

 

[Thinkaman]

and his grab is on par with Zelda's for speed.

Uh, what? Ganon has a 7-frame grab. Zelda is 12. Ganon has one of the shortest duration grabs in the game to boot.

Everything done involving aerial Wizkick. Absolutely everything. Damage increases on the Dive count too, since it's apparently still entirely punishable, as well as the part where no one should ever be getting hit by any part of it anyways.

This paragraph proves that you haven't played BBrawl.

There's no chance of it being something that nobody's going to use and won't affect gameplay at all, just like ZSS's Fsmash, Sonic's dair, or CF's dtilt.

Falcon d-tilt, at least the current non-trip version, is a solid move. ZSS f-smash buff is supposed to make it a remotely viable move instead of a totally pointless one, which it does. Sonic dair simply has reward somewhat closer to its large risk. None of these are very important buffs, and don't compare remotely to Ganon.

Now this is the part that just makes me angry whenever I read it. Aside from the sheer fallacy of your claims that one change will make Ganon's gameplay so much similar to one of the other heavyweights that it'll outweight any possible improvement to him, it's little more than an excuse. An excuse to wave in the faces of those who ask, and distract them from the fact that you are unwilling to do anything.

I'm not entirely sure what you are accusing us of here. Are you trying to say we are only avoiding a Ganon speed increase because we are too lazy to speed it up? It would only take me typing 18 keys to add such a change, a fraction of what it is costing me to reply to you.

We aren't speeding up Ganon's jab because Ganon is not Ike. If you want a powerful, somewhat heavy character who is less momentum-based and can get out of situations easily with a fast move, then I'd suggest you play that character instead of asking Ganon to be made into another one.

It would be like demanding that Ganon have a projectile, or better recovery, or different physics.

Now, shall we address your argument? Ganon, in his current metagame, is about baiting and punishing, and then taking advantage of momentum to ensure that his opponent cannot recover their balance. He does this mainly by three things. The first is obviously things such as thunderstorming, or autocanceled aerials turned into attacks to punish whiffs. And Ganon NEEDS the opponent to screw up for his current metagame to work, since he basically consists of moves that are not only unsafe, but more unsafe than any other moves in the game. The second is, also obviously, techchasing via FC, which most Ganons will use less to actually deal damage and combo, and more to reset momentum and force the opponent into a bad positions.

Yes, this section is like a shining beacon of truth imprisoned in the rest of your post. Everythign you say here is completely true. You just described the very essence of Ganon, the fundamental identity of the character that all our changes are based around.

Now, let us examine the other heavyweightspower characters. Little though I know of Bowser's metagame, what I have seen from playing the odd one or two is that they are entirely based around their shield, with OoS Fortress being a safe option to punish many, many things and a key portion of their game.

That's one part of Bowser, but he also has an important grab game with grab-release options in normal Brawl. Bowser is also about Snake-style powerhouse aerials, modestly good range, and his fantastic side-b.

Donkey Kong, on the other hand, has very powerful attacks, moves which let him set up kills and gimps, and an UpB which is also useful to punish OoS. However, their game mostly revolves around spacing with their Wall of Bair, and using their extraodinary tilts to keep their opponents out and rack damage, waiting for the kill.

DK is more about huge range combined with acceptable speed than anything else.

Next, Ike, the character you explicitly compared Ganon to, and undoubtedly the most buffed character in BBrawl.

Anyone who thinks Ganon isn't the most improved character hasn't played BBrawl. Someone might say Falcon is, or maybe Link or Samus or Zelda, but they would be wrong. It's absolutely and definitely not Ike.

His actual game mostly consists of spacing Fairs and nairs in order to get inside the opponent, and then using his jab to rack damage any number of ways, after which, he can go for the kill with one of his tilts or the risky smashes, which are normally barely utilized. He's actually more analogous to Marth for his emphasis on spacing, rather than Ganon.

Spacing fairs and nairs? Ike is a very slow character who is forced to stick to rolls, dodges, and jabs in most situations.

But you know what? I digress. What I would ask for, and be so very gleeful, as would most of the Ganon boards, to recieve as an improvement to Ganon is a safe move. A safe poke.

And the Olimars want a better recovery. The Diddys and Wolfs want a kill move. DDD wants a reflector. Meta Knight wants a projectile.

Meanwhile, someone wants Olimar's grabs toned down, other people want some kind of banana nerf, another bunch wants Snake and DDD's tech chasing to be more limited, and people want to ban Meta Knight entirely.

Why bother balancing unique characters when we could just replace everyone with retextured Marios? Everyone wins!

After all, why should Ganon be the only character in the game without any moves that are safe for him?

Because he's Ganon, and Ganon is not a character with safe moves.

 

[Anomilus]

I forget, but are you guys at all capable of affecting Shield damage? I would think a great way of emphasizing Ganon's momentum game is to make his attacks do a lot more damage to shields if this is at all possible. Actually making people fearful of shield breaks would be a boon for Ganon. At the same time his game wouldn't center around it since people could just as easily spotdodge or something around him or use their OoS options.

 

[codfish92]

I forget, but are you guys at all capable of affecting Shield damage? I would think a great way of emphasizing Ganon's momentum game is to make his attacks do a lot more damage to shields if this is at all possible. Actually making people fearful of shield breaks would be a boon for Ganon. At the same time his game wouldn't center around it since people could just as easily spotdodge or something around him or use their OoS options.

i know you can edit shield damage with PSA, but unsure on whether a code can do it.

This would be a very acceptable buff. it would still make ganon slow, but his attacks fearful in both shield and OoS. it would make up for his lack of speed, without speeding him up. this really should be done. not much would be needed, like 5 or 6 or even a 2 to get a real notice without being marths shieldbreaker or a fan(they're 28).

 

[Thinkaman]

We did consider the general idea of shield damage early on, but decided against it. Even ignoring coding limitations, shield damage has a large bias against defensive, ground-based characters. For example, it wouldn't help *ANY* against Jigglypuff, who is going to be one of Ganon's worst matchups.

Ganon also lacks the speed to pressure people into shielding in the first place, especially in matchups against particularly fast characters. You buff Ganondorf by focusing on shield damage, and Meta Knight is going to be laughing his way to the bank.

I think people are really, really underestimating 16% grounded Wiz Kick. That ability to plow through weak attacks, which includes almost all fast ones that Ganon hates, is really good. Ganon basically says "If I can't have safe moves, YOU CAN'T EITHER!" and runs you over with a truck full of Mexican elephants.

 

[Anomilus]

I honestly haven't gotten a good test on it or Ganon in a while. Has been a few weeks since I've edited anything on my SD card. I'll also be on vacation tomorrow, so no Brawling for me at all. (I think I need the break though.)

 

[Linkshot]

I've been reading up and trying to think of a solution to please everybody.

Instead of giving Ganon a safe move to go against his playstyle, we have two options:

Option A) "Triforce of Power" -- Ganondorf doesn't care about your shield. He can rip it in two with his pinky. Blocking Ganondorf is a sure-fire death.

Option B) "Dark Illusionist" -- Ganondorf needs the opponent to mess up, so give him some extra tricks that will confuse the opponent. Attach IASA or maneuverability to his aerials, so he can cancel before the hitbox comes out to avoid broken combos, etc. I suggest the IASA method: Attach IASA [to certain moves] to every frame before the first hitbox comes out.

With Option B, this causes the opponent to see the animation and react, but allows Ganon to switch up and punish.

 

[codfish92]

I've been reading up and trying to think of a solution to please everybody.

Instead of giving Ganon a safe move to go against his playstyle, we have two options:

Option A) "Triforce of Power" -- Ganondorf doesn't care about your shield. He can rip it in two with his pinky. Blocking Ganondorf is a sure-fire death.

Option B) "Dark Illusionist" -- Ganondorf needs the opponent to mess up, so give him some extra tricks that will confuse the opponent. Attach IASA or maneuverability to his aerials, so he can cancel before the hitbox comes out to avoid broken combos, etc. I suggest the IASA method: Attach IASA [to certain moves] to every frame before the first hitbox comes out.

With Option B, this causes the opponent to see the animation and react, but allows Ganon to switch up and punish.

that would drastically change his play style. something that won't work. remember, BB is trying to keep playstyles the same.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thanks for your suggestions.

Shield damage was just mentioned, and it really isn't a balanced way to address the problems Ganondorf faces. Also, keep in mind that being overly defensive with a shield is a bad idea against Ganon, who now has arguably the best anti-shield move in the game in some matchups (side-b with followups). Also, Wizard's Foot doing 16% and being pretty impossible to spot dodge makes it a FANTASTIC move against anyone with a remotely low shield.

In fact, in matchups where the opponent's ability to punish Ganon via grab is poor, I will sometimes intentionally down-b into their shield. Sure, I always did with with aerial down-b when it would push them off the stage and I would avoid punishment, but now I'll do it knowing full well I'm going to get grabbed! Boo-hoo, they did 7% to me with a throw. Now they have no shield and a thunderstorm is rolling in.

 

[Linkshot]

What are your thoughts on the IASA method?

 

[Thinkaman]

IASA would functionally just be speeding up the animation, which is something we'd like to avoid. Timing changes have only be used as a last resort. (You can also think of hitbox size changes as a last resort past that, one that we fortunately never had to use.)

Looking back, I only know of 3 timing changes that ended up having to be made. (Luigi fireball startup, Zelda f-tilt wind-down, and Ike QD wind-down on hit.) You'll notice that all of these buffs cover very large and fatal flaws in otherwise good characters, where no amount of hitbox attack changes would have done the job. The characters were simply lacking in mechanics.

Ganon is almost the opposite. He has plenty of mechanics, but they don't go far enough. He has this great side-b... but then what? He has a d-tilt with priority many would love, but what's it going to do besides a low-% uair? He has a great uair, but how were you ever going to pressure them into the air in the first place? He has a great f-tilt and dash attack for KOs, but how did you plan on getting enough damage on them?

Ganon hits the opponent maybe once for every three times they hit him. The idea is to make that work for him.

 

[Anomilus]

As said, I'll be wanting to know what you guys have chosen to buff for the official release. I'm hoping for at least more damage to some of his moves. That way when I do get that one hit in, it'll really count. Especially considering how quickly moves will stale for Ganon.

 

[Thinkaman]

As said, I'll be wanting to know what you guys have chosen to buff for the official release. I'm hoping for at least more damage to some of his moves. That way when I do get that one hit in, it'll really count. Especially considering how quickly moves will stale for Ganon.

First, the idea that moves stale a different rates or speeds is a completely false perception. Except zairs and zamus nair which don't stale at all, all moves stale along the same pattern per standard input. Ganon is actually affected less by stale moves because all of his moves are chock full of immense knockback growth that gives him massive overkill at higher %s, and he has such a wide variety of kill moves. However, his slow pummel, poor grab range, and lack of a safe poking move (like nado or Jigglypuff dair) does inhibit him from refreshing his moves. The only issue I ever have with Ganon's stale moves are uair, and rarely dash attack.

Ganon's changes in the final version give him a little extra, particularly in way of throws. D-throw is a little more consistent, u-throw has a bit extra damage but is still mediocre, and b-throw is stronger. F-throw is still the same 14% damage juggernaut. Aerial side-b was given a couple points extra damage, and the up-b grab is the most scary move in the game now. Hehehe...