Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Linkshot]

Dark Dive grab <3 It should be the scariest.

 

[Thinkaman]

I imagine Ganon Dark Dive grabbing someone and saying "Well, this is gonna be fun."

Note that by fun he means traumatizing.

You're not going to need good DI, you're going to need therapy.

 

[Revven]

So let me guess, you made his Up B grab AND Up B uppercut both insanely strong because of how terrible his recovery is? I guess that's okay, a little weird though... =\

 

[Thinkaman]

So let me guess, you made his Up B grab AND Up B uppercut both insanely strong because of how terrible his recovery is? I guess that's okay, a little weird though... =\

No, the up-b grab isn't actually strong. (Not like Falcon Dive, which on the other hand has pretty solid knockback now.)

It's just sort of... violating?

 

[Linkshot]

It deals soviet damage :V

Thinkaman, could I get your latest "working" build? The Genesis throw mechanics are irking me when I know they could be better.

 

[Big O]

It deals soviet damage :V

Thinkaman, could I get your latest "working" build? The Genesis throw mechanics are irking me when I know they could be better.

Lol it still does weak American damage as opposed to real Soviet damage . The new up b is amazing though. In my epic Ganon vs CF BBrawl friendlies with my doubles partner it gave me many satisfying KO's. It is also finally safe on hit (aside from MK's ridiculous frame 2 Uairs at certain %'s and maybe his Nair at certain %'s) and with the triple jump fix you don't have to worry about landing lag if you use it onstage and grab them successfully.

 

[Linkshot]

Er, I meant the post-Genesis changes thus far, unless you have that build.

 

[Deleted member]

Just wondering, but doesn't the *Genesis Update* in the title seem kind of misplaced? I understand it is the latest build, but genesis was like a month ago?

also I wouldn't mind giving the most up-to-date build a shot (not genesis) just to see how you did some things.

 

[ぱみゅ]

may instead of "update" it can say "edition" or something (but must include the date); anyways, name isn't really that importaint, just keep doing that good job

 

[Rykoshet]

I personally think the re-addition of din's fire's freefall despite numerous people giving solid reasons why it was terrible to do so was a pretty bad move, but the triple jump glitch not existing is a welcome addition. Ike's throw game to make his infinites not work were good additions but due to the angle not being made closer to the ground his followups on back throw and offstage traps were flat out eliminated.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This paragraph proves that you haven't played BBrawl.

Your claims indicate that you don't play Ganondorf.

Falcon d-tilt, at least the current non-trip version, is a solid move. ZSS f-smash buff is supposed to make it a remotely viable move instead of a totally pointless one, which it does. Sonic dair simply has reward somewhat closer to its large risk. None of these are very important buffs, and don't compare remotely to Ganon.

Except for the whole concept, in which you intended them to be buffs, and instead gave them something which doesn't have any effect at all on how they play, and doesn't help them in their problem matchups at all.

I'm not entirely sure what you are accusing us of here. Are you trying to say we are only avoiding a Ganon speed increase because we are too lazy to speed it up? It would only take me typing 18 keys to add such a change, a fraction of what it is costing me to reply to you.

We aren't speeding up Ganon's jab because Ganon is not Ike. If you want a powerful, somewhat heavy character who is less momentum-based and can get out of situations easily with a fast move, then I'd suggest you play that character instead of asking Ganon to be made into another one.

What I'm saying is that you claim that you cannot stray too far from vBrawl in buffing the characters, but the fact of the matter is that given what he's like in vBrawl, that is EXACTLY what you will have to do with characters like Ganon and Falcon.

It would be like demanding that Ganon have a projectile, or better recovery, or different physics.

All of which would be actual buffs, though I understand that they would violate the principle by which you work. However, and this is the thing you do not seem to understand, what Ganon needs is not for his regular game to be more effective. It's plenty effective already, on those characters where it actually works. What he NEEDS is something that will let him take on that half of the cast which shuts down his current game entirely, and which you have not given him.

Yes, this section is like a shining beacon of truth imprisoned in the rest of your post. Everythign you say here is completely true. You just described the very essence of Ganon, the fundamental identity of the character that all our changes are based around.

But what you do not seem to grasp is that he does not need his baiting game, or his techchase game, or even his gimping game. These are all terribly effective...on every member of the cast which doesn't shut the entirety of his game down effortlessly. Floaty aerial hit and run tactics such as Jiggs, Peach, Luigi, Wario, and Toon Link? Nothing in his game helps. Projectile spammers and zoners such as Pit, Falco, Wolf, Snake, Samus, R.O.B., Olimar, and Diddy? There's nothing which improves those. Ooh, how about characters who use moves that prevent you from entering their space at all, such as Marth, DK, Ness, Lucas, Lucario, DDD, ICs, or Metaknight? Sorry, sucks to be Ganon. Chew on that for a while.

Anyone who thinks Ganon isn't the most improved character hasn't played BBrawl. Someone might say Falcon is, or maybe Link or Samus or Zelda, but they would be wrong. It's absolutely and definitely not Ike.

Or maybe whoever it is actually knows what Ganondorf's game consists of, and knows about the game of said other characters as well. Now, I KNOW it's not Falcon or Ganon. Their basic games still remain unchanged, especially Falcon. Link and Samus? Perhaps. I don't know enough of Samus's game to judge, but if seems unchanged for the most part. Zelda? No, though she has gotten some improvements, she's still got a ways to go. You know why I think it's Ike? Because you not only got rid of his majorly crippling weakness, you then buffed a move to help with his current worst matchup. What have you given Ganondorf that will help with the matchups that he has that are currently hard counters? Because so far as I've seen, the only stuff you've given him only works on the people that a Ganon player can already beat, not on the ones that make him totally unviable. Got an answer for that?

Spacing fairs and nairs? Ike is a very slow character who is forced to stick to rolls, dodges, and jabs in most situations.

Which is, again, proof that you do not actually know whereof you speak.

And the Olimars want a better recovery. The Diddys and Wolfs want a kill move. DDD wants a reflector. Meta Knight wants a projectile.

First, I laughed at the part where you claimed Wolf needed a kill move. Second, the fact of the matter is that these characters are all much better than Ganondorf as you have him now. Besides which, Wolf likely needs a buff or two as well, I can't tell.

Meanwhile, someone wants Olimar's grabs toned down, other people want some kind of banana nerf, another bunch wants Snake and DDD's tech chasing to be more limited, and people want to ban Meta Knight entirely.

Why bother balancing unique characters when we could just replace everyone with retextured Marios? Everyone wins!

Well, in the case of Olimar, either you're going to have to tone his camping game down, or you're going to have to give the characters who don't already have a way of dealing with it...well, a way to deal with it. As for the naners, what with the increased variety of stages and the removal of the infinite lock, I can't judge but to say it'd likely be more necessary than not. Snake and DDD's tech chasing, hmm. As I've said, I haven't yet played BBrawl, so I can't say about D3. As for Snake, the only thing I'd recommend is that he should have less reward for something that is more or less effortless for a good Snake. And if MK needs to be banned in this, you're not doing your jobs right.

And yet there you go again with your claims that making characters viable means a decrease in variety. If that was the case, fighting games could never come close to balance, but yet they do.

I think people are really, really underestimating 16% grounded Wiz Kick. That ability to plow through weak attacks, which includes almost all fast ones that Ganon hates, is really good. Ganon basically says "If I can't have safe moves, YOU CAN'T EITHER!" and runs you over with a truck full of Mexican elephants.

Once per stock. Yeah. That's really going to be useful. >_>

Because he's Ganon, and Ganon is not a character with safe moves.

Because a character who cannot hit with his moves will always be bottom tier.

 

[Steeler]

the fact of the matter is that ganondorf is going to almost always have to simply outplay his opponent to win because of how his playstyle works and how bbrawl's goal is to maintain playstyles, strengths, weaknesses, etc. does that mean ganon will still be one of the worst characters? probably. but the gap between he and the rest of the characters should be tighter.

ganondorf is simply a flawed and hyperpolarized character and all bbrawl is trying to do is give him more toys to outplay you with. i honestly don't think it is a bad idea to make some drastic change that goes against the intentions of the project because of how incredibly limiting that is to improve him.

this is all my opinion though. the wizkick change is very very good, but ganon needs more of those types of changes that really improve some weakness of his. the flamechoke improvements are an example of something that already improves something that was good about him and doesn't really address a weakness.

 

[Thinkaman]

Your claims indicate that you don't play Ganondorf.

Except that I do. I stopped playing him in normal Brawl in favor of Jigglypuff and Ness after about six months of maining him, though I still paly him more than anyone else in friendlies. I play him more in BBrawl than any other character by a pretty large margin.

 

[Linkshot]

Salty.

I'm not in a good mood right now, so you're going to have to put up with how this comes out.

Play the latest build of Ganondorf (not Genesis; ask Thinkaman for permission). Play against every character, even if you need CPUs. Use every move, and watch them carefully. Ganondorf is MUCH better now. And his Flame Choke game is VASTLY improved. Grounded Flame Choke -> dTilt Trip -> Dash Grab is a true combo, I think. Pummel, then uThrow. That's roughly +60% you just dealt, and now they're going to die from your next attack.

Dark Dive Grab zaps them and then throws them DOWN AND FORWARD. Link, Ivysaur, Bowser, Olimar, Single Climber, and Mario are GONE with no chance of recovering. If they get hit by the Uppercut at that height, they die at 30%. 30%

Ganondorf is vastly improved, trust me. I toyed with him for an hour straight. He ***** now.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I personally think the re-addition of din's fire's freefall despite numerous people giving solid reasons why it was terrible to do so was a pretty bad move, but the triple jump glitch not existing is a welcome addition. Ike's throw game to make his infinites not work were good additions but due to the angle not being made closer to the ground his followups on back throw and offstage traps were flat out eliminated.

Din's Fire no freefall is a possibility I never though of (I could not check every thread en here), but could be great having it: could make zelda's recovery pretty decent, and would allow her to remove weird buffs like the flower effect on jab or the Up-B combo possibilities.

And Ike's helps balance his no freefall after QD, because he still can be considered overpowered; just some sacifices made for the recovery's sake...

 

[Big O]

Er, I meant the post-Genesis changes thus far, unless you have that build.

Yeah I was talking about the build with the up b grab that semi spikes. It is the most satisfying command grab in the game now.

The change made it so that it is always safe on hit on grounded opponents and only punishable on hit in the air by MK Uair/Nair and Marth Fair. You need really good timing for them to work so chances are they won't succeed by spamming A. I think it could be fixed with a slight speedup in the jumping away animation. So that Ganon's legs won't get hit by those attacks.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm not sure if this is the right time to say this, but there are other low tiers (besides Ganon) who could use improvements too... I'd like to bring up Lucas, since I main him, is there something else we could do for him, because the only difference I can really see is the lack of infinite grab release (I'm definitely not complaining) and +2 damage, I was looking at this one vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRWTrljeyDw
I think all Lucas mains have always wanted this, but it does seem like a big change for BBrawl based on the nature of BBrawl (which I love) I just wanted to see your opinions on this...

BTW if you don't feel like this is relevent, you can continue back on your Ganon discussion

 

[Rykoshet]

And Ike's helps balance his no freefall after QD, because he still can be considered overpowered; just some sacifices made for the recovery's sake...

His recovery is still gimpable, it's not even close to overpowered. Right now it's good, I'll admit as much, but taking away the one straight combo in the game ike had and effectively removing his one kill setup on terrible matches like olimar put him back in the position of having an 8-2 matchup, instead of a potentially doable 7-3 or 6-4. You don't even need to do anything but change the angle on his fthrow so it puts them in the position to tech at dash attack distance instead of setting them so far out he never gets to follow up again. I'm dead serious, I'd rather play with a bad recovery and having my kill setups and edgeguard scenarios than playing with a good QD.

 

[Linkshot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVBmWE_R6Ng&feature=related

Do want. DO WANT.

But not necessary.

Thinkaman, your latest build is great. The throws feel wonderfully natural, Ganon ***** all, and the changes are definitely noticeable. I'm just about to check out ICs to see if they've been changed.

EDIT

ICs feel reallllllly sweet right now. They still have a grab release chain, but I don't think it's very reliable. This is definitely the level ICs should be at. You've done a great job.

 

[ぱみゅ]

His recovery is still gimpable, it's not even close to overpowered. Right now it's good, I'll admit as much, but taking away the one straight combo in the game ike had and effectively removing his one kill setup on terrible matches like olimar put him back in the position of having an 8-2 matchup, instead of a potentially doable 7-3 or 6-4. You don't even need to do anything but change the angle on his fthrow so it puts them in the position to tech at dash attack distance instead of setting them so far out he never gets to follow up again.

well, we don't know how code limitation does work with this, but it actually sounds pretty single (like Falco's corrected Dthrow).

I'm dead serious, I'd rather play with a bad recovery and having my kill setups and edgeguard scenarios than playing with a good QD.

that's because your Ike is a beast! lol
many people's ike (includes mine) have problems with his recovery because they can't handle him as offensive as you actually do.

 

[Eldiran]

I don't -- when did a new build come out? Is there something newer than Genesis?

 

[codfish92]

I don't -- when did a new build come out? Is there something newer than Genesis?

not for the public no. the build they're talking about is the one currently being tested.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Is there a way to become a tester of BBrawl? Or is it exclusive?

 

[codfish92]

ask thinkaman. he gives permission on the use of the test codeset. you'll likely have to test something though.

 

[Big O]

I think the claims of Ganon not really being buffed or even viable are a little exaggerated.

A lot of the lockdowns he suffered greatly from got removed. Falco's cg to spike, laser locks, Wario's cg, Sheik's tilt lock, IC's 0-death grabs, D3's cg, and banana lock's are all gone. All of those match-ups are already more even as a result.

The top tier characters got nerfed. MK's tornado got a pretty significant nerf making it less useful vs everyone including Ganon. His Dsmash kills like 30% later without DI and his shuttle loop got both a damage nerf and a huge knockback nerf. It isn't an automatic kill/gimp anymore and that's great news for Ganon. Snake's Utilt getting nerfed and Ftilt doing slightly less damage means Ganon can take a few more hits before going down. Wario's Fsmash and Uair nerf makes him work a lot harder to KO Ganon. Living longer in all those match-ups gives him more chances to take control and land that one momentum changing hit that he thrives on.

Wizkick got totally reworked. It went from being unsafe on hit until like 50% into being the kill move and situational approach it should have been. It powers through weak projectiles and attacks now. Punishing projectile spam from almost halfway across FD shouldn't be overlooked. The part about it only working when fresh is somewhat misleading because it assumes that the projectile is also fresh. Ganon can also power through Pit's arrows even when it's a little stale. The aerial wizkick grounding opponents like DK's side b can be set up via tech chasing or grounded footstools. It spiking in the air for the entire duration lets it combo into the quake onstage (now safe on hit with a better angle) and provides another way to suicide KO them offstage.

Ganon himself also got plenty of other buffs. His Dsmash links much better than before and is much more powerful. This is really helpful vs Olimar because flame choke to Dsmash is a combo and it kills Olimar from the middle of FD at 90%. The extra damage it does is also nice when he isn't at 90% before the flame choke. His up b grab now sends them down and away from you making it safe on hit vs practically everything and much more useful in general. See if Olimar tries to whistle armor back to the stage after he gets gimped by it. If you mess up edge hogging Ganon, either his up b grab will stage spike you to oblivion or you will get star KO'ed by his shoryuken of darkness. Utilt wind doing damage is somewhat useful vs ledgestalling. It also does shield damage and destroys pikmin. His pummel doing 5 damage is very nice and he also got throw buffs. His Uthrow does 2 more damage and KO's at about 160, his Bthrow does one more damage and has more knockback, and his Dthrow has a lot less knockback which keeps them close to you even at high %'s. Aerial side b also does a 2 more damage which is nice.

Dtilt tripping is pretty big too. It gives him a whole new level of tech chasing. Rolls and attacking from a trip have much less invincibility frames and often travel shorter than normal. If they are really close Dtilt combos into grab and if they are within jab range it combos into jab as well. Doing an extra Dtilt's worth of damage after every successful flame choke really adds up. It doesn't combo from a flame choke on everyone but landing a Dtilt does have a bigger reward on everyone.

I certainly think with all of the buffs to Ganon, nerfs to the top tier, and the removal of lockdowns that really plagued him that he is viable. I think he needs some tweaks to help vs Samus, Marth, and Falco though. I can't think of any good buffs besides +1 damage on the sweetspot of Fair that have a chance of being considered. Lol I'd actually like to see how a sparta kick that reflects projectiles works out. Just might be crazy enough to work . Doing something for the warlock punch would also be nice like SA, a windbox that gimps, super low cooldown, refreshing DJ's, and instant shield break (lol I guess I should stop daydreaming).

 

[Shadic]

Edit: Oh boy, this was supposed to go in the other thread, whoops!

 

[Rykoshet]

I think the claims of Ganon not really being buffed or even viable are a little exaggerated.

A lot of the lockdowns he suffered greatly from got removed.

Frame 8, done.

 

[Big O]

Frame 8, done.

Uair, Nair, and standing grab say hi. The only ground moves Wario has that beat them in startup are his frame 5 Dtilt and his frame 4 dash attack. His best aerials certainly aren't his frame 4 Nair and frame 5 Fair either. He is still top tier. Fun facts make a cool story bro.

It is the cooldown lag that hampers Ganon more so than the startup lag anyway so nice try.

 

[Thinkaman]

I just want to randomly say that Ganon d-tilt is easily the biggest single buff in the project.

As for latest public files, I've gone ahead and uploaded a up to speed version for the benefit of those interested in testing the changed throws, especially ICs. We are very, very, very close to a final release.

 

[Rykoshet]

Uair, Nair

Require a jump to go off, unless you plan on telling me either move are frame 1 then no.

and standing grab

lol

 

[Big O]

Wario only has 2 ground moves faster than frame 8. Both of them suck (dash attack and Dtilt) and have no real business being used. He is still top tier.

Please elaborate as to why it matters. Making his jab hit on frame 3 wouldn't really solve any problems. It would only help OoS and it would still be laggy. If you are going to say he needs speed changes at least ask for or mention ones that would make a real difference like cutting the cooldown lag in half for his jab.

 

[Rykoshet]

Let's ignore the fact that wario's air dodge is largely considered his best approach and has the mobility to make walling him near impossible. Ganon's stature and stiffness cause his inability to throw a move before frame 8 an actual concern but sure you keep going with the "he's good" angle.

There are characters in this game that have a single crippling aspect to their gameplay. With ike it was his recovery, with samus it was her killpower, for zelda it was her inability to get past shielding, for ganon it's his terrible terrible terrible terrible moveset. No amount of "wow I'm a *******" gimmicks change that EVERY character in the game has a "cut that out" move except ganon and as a result he gets walled to hell and back.

 

[Big O]

I am not ignorant of why Wario is a very good character and I never said Ganon was good either. I just said he is viable and recieved numerous buffs. He is also underated imo.

The only times startup matters is when both fighters are within striking distance of each other or OoS. Ganon's moves generally outrange other characters so it isn't that bad in most MU's. I agree that Ganon's crippling flaw was his broken moveset but I have a hard time seeing startup being the biggest problem. If you're up to it could you give me an example to show your point regarding walling? Just describe a scenario and how a faster jab would make a big difference. I am willing to change my stance. I just see cooldown lag as being a bigger problem when his frame 10 tilts and frame 8 jabs aren't really that slow.

 

[TreK]

and banana lock's

Banana locks aren't gone
...
are they ?

 

[TLMSheikant]

So, umm what are the changes to TL? I wish I could play balanced brawl. :/ It looks awesome.

 

[Thinkaman]

Banana locks aren't gone
...
are they ?

Infinite banana locks are gone, but you can still do two consecutive bananas or obviously chains of bananas after the start of any action by the opponents. I confess I'm not entire sure how this mechanic work, Ampharos worked on this and I don't exactly have the greatest Diddy skills. All I know is that all the banana tricks I know of still worked for me, and when I tried to lockdown opponents in a corner it didn't work.

Note that this is a global change, and not Diddy-specific except in the practical sense.

So, umm what are the changes to TL? I wish I could play balanced brawl. :/ It looks awesome.

Toon Link's f-smash and d-smash second hits should always connect now. You do need to make the f-smash second swing as soon as possible for it to work though.

 

[TP]

With ike it was his recovery, with samus it was her killpower, for zelda it was her inability to get past shielding, for ganon it's his terrible terrible terrible terrible moveset.

LOL, Ganon's moveset was never the issue in vBrawl. It's his physics. He has the second slowest run speed and bottom tier air horizontal speed (not as bad as someone like Luigi or DDD, but still awful). His double jump was awful. He took 7 frames to jump off the ground. His HORRIBLE standing grab ruined his OoS game. His bulky body made him easily juggled and chaingrabbed. He falls too fast, considering his fail recovery. Ganon's moveset was his saving grace.

 

[Rykoshet]

LOL, Ganon's moveset was never the issue in vBrawl. It's his physics. He has the second slowest run speed and bottom tier air horizontal speed (not as bad as someone like Luigi or DDD, but still awful). His double jump was awful. He took 7 frames to jump off the ground. His HORRIBLE standing grab ruined his OoS game. His bulky body made him easily juggled and chaingrabbed. He falls too fast, considering his fail recovery. Ganon's moveset was his saving grace.

AKA he's too tall and stiff to not have a viable move before frame 8, making his moveset a much more critical issue than being fat and slow. Ike's fat and slow, but he has a frame 3 jab and suddenly people forget this fact.

 

[Thinkaman]

Early versions of Ganon had shown that Ganon still needed help, and the biggest benefit at the time besides d-tilt was the slightly buffed (at the time) grounded down-b. If you kinda squint, you can even draw parallels to Quick Draw, since it breaks the mold mobility-wise. Buffing it even more was the turning point for later Ganon development.

 

[BombKirby]

Are the IC infinite CGs limited now? I tried them out and they worked normally.....at least that's wut I noticed.