Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Thinkaman]

Is there any chance of shield-stun and hit-stun being added in at least? I think that could balance it a little more also.

Besides the obvious issues with changing physics and the way people are used to the game, these sort of things would totally shake up the entire balance field. With these two in particular, Meta Knight would be terrifying. (Also, lots of characters would have much broader approach games)

are falco's throw lasers different from his regular lasers, cuz if they are you have the b-throw lasers do more KBG, which would result in better positioning, but not making it a huge BKB throw.

Yes, but that doesn't solve the fundamental dilemma. Any b-throw that is good for getting people off-stage is good on walk-offs, and Falco lasers mean a good walk-off option is a very, very dangerous thing for him to have.

FYI, Falco throw lasers do 2% while the standard ones do 3%. All throws use the same.

Edit: So I've been playing around with Lucas hitboxes, and have tried making his dair electric. This drastically increases the hitlag, which makes it easier to SDI are easier for Lucas to react to and follow SDI when it happen it's very interesting, and makes the move *FEEL* incredibly strong with all that hitlag.

 

[hankydysplasia]

Thanks for responding, as always.

-Thanks to lasers, a Falco with a forceful b-throw was a pretty big problem for many characters of walk-off stages.

Just clarifying, people would camp at the end of the stage, shooting lasers to force approach. The opponent would come over, get grabbed, and thrown out? I thought I remember somewhere earlier in this thread that people decided edge camping didn't work consistently enough to be worth it. I still would think there would be good ways around.

-DI made the awful for damage at higher percents.

So you're saying back-throw wasn't a good move for building damage? Can't you just throw a different way then? It's the positioning.

-Falco was starting to suffer in some matchups without his chaingrab.

Not that I don't believe it, but could you direct me to some videos of Falco using the b-throw really well?

-Falco remained very stage-baised.

So it was decided that the stage-bias contributed by Falco's B-Throw was greater than the desire to keep him feeling the same as vBrawl.

The b-throw change let Falco struggle a little bit less agaisnt higher-% opponents while eliminating much of his advantage for camping the edge. It also let Falco use platforms to his advantage more.

The advantage with platforms could have been given with his U-Throw, but I agree he has an advantage at the edge (though I'm not sure it's that bad.)

I used the throw mod to tighten up the b-throw's connection to the lasers so that they always hit and the positioning is a little better. Try the improved version and see how it works.

Looks way less hacky. Good work.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thanks for responding, as always.

Thanks for posting! Dialogue is the only thing that can keep this moving forward.

Just clarifying, people would camp at the end of the stage, shooting lasers to force approach. The opponent would come over, get grabbed, and thrown out? I thought I remember somewhere earlier in this thread that people decided edge camping didn't work consistently enough to be worth it. I still would think there would be good ways around.

Edge camping is not worth it... in general. Falco's extremely good, long-range projectile lets him threaten the rule. Beyond that the closest anyone can come to takign advantage of the edge is Olimar, who isn't as severe.

So you're saying back-throw wasn't a good move for building damage? Can't you just throw a different way then? It's the positioning.

That was not the main issue. However, it was just something on the table so that if the solution allowed b-throw to do more damage, so be it.

Not that I don't believe it, but could you direct me to some videos of Falco using the b-throw really well?

Not yet. Do you have AIM?

So it was decided that the stage-bias contributed by Falco's B-Throw was greater than the desire to keep him feeling the same as vBrawl.

Precisely. This was the core of the decision, but not the only factor.

The advantage with platforms could have been given with his U-Throw, but I agree he has an advantage at the edge (though I'm not sure it's that bad.)

U-throw is actually pretty hard to work with. Keep in mind that the throw lasers for the throws are all the same.

Looks way less hacky. Good work.

Thanks!

 

[SaltyKracka]

Sooooo...I've just been playing BBrawl Ganon for a an hour or two, and I have to say. He really hasn't been improved all that much. As far as I can tell, the ONLY buff that has an actual positive effect upon his gameplay is the dtilt. And, while that itself is good, it's not exactly great. Everything else, except perhaps the recovery changes, is pretty much useless.

 

[Linkshot]

Uhhhhhh you're not playing Ganon properly, then.

Heed thy dark commandments:

Flame Choke -> dtilt -> Grab -> PummelPummel -> dthrow -> uAir

 

[SaltyKracka]

Heed this. That DOESN'T WORK.

 

[Big O]

You can actually do side b > Dtilt > grab on certain characters. The Dthrow to Uair is not a combo but it could work with some mindgames.

 

[SaltyKracka]

You can actually do side b > Dtilt > grab on certain characters. The Dthrow to Uair is not a combo but it could work with some mindgames.

Which characters?

 

[Linkshot]

uAir, fAir, just something to mixup with. But it does a lot of damage.

 

[SaltyKracka]

uAir, fAir, just something to mixup with. But it does a lot of damage.

Does it actually work on any of the characters he really needs help in his matchups with?

 

[A2ZOMG]

...The one real thing that's limiting Ganondorf is the lack of a good shieldgrab. That was the main thing that was stopping Ganondorf from being good in Brawl imo. With a better shieldgrab, and a better source of consistent damage that doesn't waste KO moves, that is really the thing Ganondorf has lacked all this time. It's his fastest out of shield option furthermore, so obviously getting a buff on that will increase his speed a bit too.

Seriously, if that gets buffed in range, Ganondorf will be fine. Aaaaand, that's not in the scope of this project of course right?

Pummel that does 5% is sexy...only if you can actually get a grab. But seriously, the real reason Ganondorf needs to be able to grab is to avoid diminishing returns while dealing some damage.

 

[SaltyKracka]

...The one real thing that's limiting Ganondorf is the lack of a good shieldgrab. That was the main thing that was stopping Ganondorf from being good in Brawl imo. With a better shieldgrab, and a better source of consistent damage that doesn't waste KO moves, that is really the thing Ganondorf has lacked all this time. It's his fastest out of shield option furthermore, so obviously getting a buff on that will increase his speed a bit too.

Seriously, if that gets buffed in range, Ganondorf will be fine. Aaaaand, that's not in the scope of this project of course right?

Pummel that does 5% is sexy...only if you can actually get a grab. But seriously, the real reason Ganondorf needs to be able to grab is to avoid diminishing returns while dealing some damage.

Honestly, that's really what should've been done instead of all of these other things like buffing his pummel and throws. I will summarize it here.

The reason Ganondorf's grab game is totally useless is not because of the damage his throws deal. His throws and pummel are perfectly fine, if a little underpowered, as they are. The ABSOLUTE reason his grab game is worthless is because his actual grab range is balls. Trying to do anything else won't really help at all.

 

[Big O]

Which characters?

Have you ever noticed that when you're really close and Dtilt someone they end up behind you? Some characters like Olimar, Wario, and Squirtle end up in that situation when you flame choke them and they DI towards you. If you buffer a turn around grab after that it will work. Lol when I tried it on Kirby the standing grab whiffs because he is too short after being tripped (kinda depressing though). Some characters like DK are big enough for Dtilt > grab when close but side b > Dtilt won't work on them.

 

[Rapax]

I'm looking forward to when it works for PAL =)

Sounds good so far.

 

[Meru.]

Yaaay has come back to ask if PAL will ever be released.

EDIT: Ninjaaaa'd. What a coincidence btw.

 

[Linkshot]

Standing grab is too high, but dashgrab snatches Kirby up.

 

[Thinkaman]

I like pivot grabs on reaction after d-tilt. Doesn't work on away rolls obviously.

Also, last night me and Big O found out that if the opponent does not immediately buffer a command after d-tilt trip (they hesitate or wait to react for even one frame) you can immediately footstool them... which all Ganon's know is a gauranteed down-b, which in BBrawl will lead to at least 40% damage and probably a KO.

Edit: Oh yeah, another fun fact. Before looking at that, last night I also tested fair as a d-tilt tech chase. It varies based on height and roll distance, but Ganon can tech chase every reaction of many characters out of d-tilt with a sweetspot fair! Some like DDD, Marth, and Snake it barely misses, so any edge or incline that shortens their roll will let them get hit. G&W and Falco can be hit, as well as Olimar. Any tall character with a short roll is easy. Popo can always powershield it I think, but Nana will eat it.

Double Edit: Pivot grab grabs low too, and is faster than dash grab.

Triple Edit: We will do our best to get a PAL version on release. Nothing seems to stand in the way of this.

 

[codfish92]

are link's Fsmashes supposed to connect, or is it just Tlink's?

 

[Mit]

Have a feeling it's just Tink's. Link's first hit fsmash has high knockback, and at higher percents is a reliable kill move alone. Tink's fsmash is always supposed to be a two-hit combo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Correct. Link's f-smash always connecting would be ridiculously powerful in both damage and knockback.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm having trouble connecting the footstool out of dTilt @.@

 

[codfish92]

is there any way to reduce the knock back on links uncharged arrows. they seem to be ridiculously high, a character with good recovery can get gimped by them, even meta knight if he is far enough away. i really like the charged arrow knockback though. it is something to be afraid of now.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm having trouble connecting the footstool out of dTilt @.@

You can footstool starting on the third aerial frame. If jumping backwards, you can footstool on the first aerial frame.

Edit: Do remember that any buffered response *will* avoid this. The big significance of this is how brutally it punishes the idea of "I'm gonna wait and respond based on the first frames of what Ganondorf does!"

is there any way to reduce the knock back on links uncharged arrows. they seem to be ridiculously high, a character with good recovery can get gimped by them, even meta knight if he is far enough away. i really like the charged arrow knockback though. it is something to be afraid of now.

No, it's a single hitbox that scales, not like say Samus's charge shot. I tried to find a good balance between the two levels. Luckily uncharged arrows are slow enough to be easily dodged at distances far enough off the stage for their weak knockback to be lethal.

If you are having trouble with knockdown from arrows, remember to NEVER roll or attack and always just stand up. This is much faster than Link could begin to draw another arrow, and shuts down any potential arrow-to-arrow strategy. At high level play, it's really all about boomerang-to-arrow.

Today's topic: Yoshi and Pikachu! What do people think about them and where they stand?

 

[codfish92]

yoshi's f-air lower hitbox making the opponent down is great. it
1. makes it much easier to spike with
2. if your lucky enough to hit someone on the ground with it, it sets you up with a lot of nice follow ups. some characters even allow most of d-air.
over all, i think that alone makes yoshi better, and the added buffs seal the deal IMO.

 

[Thinkaman]

I feel like Yoshi is a lot better, but I am slightly disappointed that his throw really couldn't be made better. By overall design they just aren't built to possibly set up anything ever. All that could be done was more damage really, despite my best attempts... I do think the extra pummel damage (as opposed to more damage on each throw) was a good call. Making Yoshi biased against fighting high-% opponents really emphasizes that he is then endurance character.

Edit: I think I realize the source of my apprehension about Yoshi. Although the ultimate goal of these changes is to balance matchups at high-level play, many of them have the happy side-effect of making the characters easier to pick-up or making existing playstyles immediately superior. Two of Yoshi's biggest changes, Egg Braking and the fair pound, do not have these advantages. No one is gonna say "man, I can't wait to play Yoshi because of Egg Braking!" like they might say about Link's arrows.

However, the point of this is balance, and not to market low-tier characters or increase their popularity. Yoshi will probably always be a niche character, and not much will change that.

Double Edit: I never mentioned this I don't think...

After early on when Yoshi mains questioned the utility of fair pound, I asked JGALT, a Yoshi main I test with, about it. He gave a strong defense of it, saying that it was very useful for Yoshi to have a powerful punishment tool in his back pocket, even if it was obscure and risky to pull off.

Yoshi likes to trade hits, because Yoshi is probably definitely going to live longer than you. Yoshi is happy when the battle is going back and forth with little hits, because Yoshi has decent speed and decent range combined with decent damage that will ultimately let him keep up and win. His great spotdodge also helps this. What Yoshi doesn't like are strong attacks, which force him to shield and abandon his trading games.

I talked to Ampharos about this after, and he made a very good analogy. Yoshi fair pound is a like a reflector or PSI Magnet. You almost never get to use them, because the opponent don't let you, they don't use projectiles much at all agiasnt characters that can reflect or absorb them. However, that's the advantage in and of itself! Similarly, Yoshi having this obscure but devastating ace up his sleeve discourages enemies from ever making any attack that could end up highly punishable--which is precisely the attacks Yoshi doesn't like to begin with.

JGALT would also occassionally get me with it on the edge when he was recovering, during the fast rising of his DJ. I became slightly uneasy about guarding Yoshi; it was far from a big change, but it was one more thing I had to worry about.

 

[codfish92]

i think pummels make more of an impact then the throws. yoshi's throws weren't too good to begin with, they basically were spacers and combo set ups at low %. plus yoshi doesn't throw too much, if they're close, a b-move is better. comes out faster, and doesn't have a huge lag if you miss. pummel damage was defiantly the better call.

also, yoshi being able to get his second jump back out of the egg really reduces the chances of him getting gimped.

does pikachu's up throw still do what his d-throw does? i haven't played him yet

 

[Thinkaman]

does pikachu's up throw still do what his d-throw does? i haven't played him yet

No, Pikachu u-throw is normal again. Paprika's throw mod is to thank for that.

 

[Mit]

Unrelated question, but a friend of mine brought up a pretty legitimate concern: has Wario really been nerfed enough?

Right now he's third tier in vBrawl, and as my friend mentioned, that's WITH him being able to be grab-release combo'd by nearly every character in the entire cast. MK and Snake were pretty significantly nerfed, and the characters slightly below Wario in the tier list all were nerfed pretty good as well (such as Falco's chaingrab being removed).

Wario though? His uair and fsmash were slightly nerfed (although still really good moves, and I imagine they still kill at only slightly higher percents), and he had a chaingrab removed (although I'm not sure if that was the result of BBrawl changes or a chaingrab from vBrawl?). What makes him 3rd in vBrawl is still pretty much there, and BBrawl doesn't seem to have really slowed him down much at all. Right now it looks like he'd clearly be the best character in BBrawl, perhaps by too large of a margin.

 

[codfish92]

pikachu's new d-throw is nice, sets up for a n-air

but thunder's shockwave after hitting pikachu seems ridiculously powerful. it can kill pit at the edge of battlefield at 49%.

 

[Johnknight1]

I have a question: How come the training mode stage replaces the wifi training room stage? Wouldn't it be easy to just make the Hanebow have two icons, but have one of them [clearly say] "Wifi Training Room [Stage]"=??? Not sure how easy that is, but it seems like a real good idea, & the lack of Hanebow is one of the few reasons why I'm a little hesitant to get this mod...

 

[codfish92]

I have a question: How come the training mode stage replaces the wifi training room stage? Wouldn't it be easy to just make the Hanebow have two icons, but have one of them [clearly say] "Wifi Training Room [Stage]"=??? Not sure how easy that is, but it seems like a real good idea, & the lack of Hanebow is one of the few reasons why I'm a little hesitant to get this mod...

that would involve custom SSS's which are possible, but are very glitchy, not to mention a clone engine would need to be made so it could copy hanebow but with a different idea.

long story short, the only way the wifi training room is getting a stage is if another stage gets out.

however, you can download the .txt file of BBrawl, and take out the hanebow is wifi training room code. it would still give you BBrawl, but you can play at hanebow. just don't expect it at any tournament BBrawl is in.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

pikachu's new d-throw is nice, sets up for a n-air

but thunder's shockwave after hitting pikachu seems ridiculously powerful. it can kill pit at the edge of battlefield at 49%.

its always been that way, you need to mindgame people hard into it to hit with it though, its one of the things im really good at honestly if you play smartly you should never get hit by it, and DI makes it so you can survive for a lot longer

 

[Thinkaman]

Unrelated question, but a friend of mine brought up a pretty legitimate concern: has Wario really been nerfed enough?

Right now he's third tier in vBrawl, and as my friend mentioned, that's WITH him being able to be grab-release combo'd by nearly every character in the entire cast. MK and Snake were pretty significantly nerfed, and the characters slightly below Wario in the tier list all were nerfed pretty good as well (such as Falco's chaingrab being removed).

Wario though? His uair and fsmash were slightly nerfed (although still really good moves, and I imagine they still kill at only slightly higher percents), and he had a chaingrab removed (although I'm not sure if that was the result of BBrawl changes or a chaingrab from vBrawl?). What makes him 3rd in vBrawl is still pretty much there, and BBrawl doesn't seem to have really slowed him down much at all. Right now it looks like he'd clearly be the best character in BBrawl, perhaps by too large of a margin.

I'm glad you bring this up. For a long time during this project I considered Wario the best character in various versions. Now, despite that little has changed about him, I can safely say I no logner hold that opinion.

The f-smash and uair buffs are not drastic, but bigger than anyone thinks. Not only is it over a 10% buff to both damage and knockback, but remember that due to gravity and DI, the ability of moves to KO is on an exponential curve. You played around with the over-nerfed Sanke u-tilt, you can easily see what a HUGE difference a small change can make. (The fixed version had only THREE points more knockback!)

The grab release change is noteworthy but very overweighted. Wario might be the hardest character in the game to grab by some considerations, and it only affected certain matchups.

The d-throw nerf that prevents the chaingrab, although small, is non-trivial. We would be worried about putting something like this on another character.

Finally, extended testing has shown that Wario is more affected by changes to low tiers than previously thought, at least to me. We always knew that Snake struggled a decent amount with the buffed low-tiers (more than say Marth), but turns out Wario is affected strongly too.

Wario is still a strong character, who I'm very confident will continue to enjoy success. However, I don't think he's #1 anymore.

 

[Adapt]

Who do you think is number 1 Thinkaman?

Also, I haven't been playing this lately because there is a tourney coming up and I want to be used to brawl. Is there another codeset besides the one that was released right before genesis?

 

[EvolveOrDie]

yes there is a test codeset up for download on the link in the first page

 

[Johnknight1]

that would involve custom SSS's which are possible, but are very glitchy, not to mention a clone engine would need to be made so it could copy hanebow but with a different idea.

long story short, the only way the wifi training room is getting a stage is if another stage gets out.

however, you can download the .txt file of BBrawl, and take out the hanebow is wifi training room code. it would still give you BBrawl, but you can play at hanebow. just don't expect it at any tournament BBrawl is in.

Thanks for the response. I've seen a few youtube videos where people had moved stuff around, changed where & how everything is organized, & even duplicate stages, but the one that really captivated me was one for the one I saw that had the wifi waiting room under playable stages without any stage removals (I actually think it was some Brawl+ mod). If it works it'd be nice to play as (even though it's banned, it's still nice to have for "fun"), even though the stage is clearly a banned stage.

Another thing you brought up is BBrawl tournaments. Don't mind me asking, but about how many tournaments has BBrawl having? (a month, a week, in it's existance, etc.)

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't really want to bias public opinion with what is ultimately my personal views. For example, for awhile I considered Samus the worst character and thought she would need more buffs in the future. But then, before any mroe changes were made, testers just one day started doing better with Samus. Now she is currently considered pretty strong standing by most. I had a similar experience with Sonic early on.

So do I have personal thoughts on who the best characters are? Sure, it's almost impossible not to. But those are merely that, and I don't want to create artificial expectations.

 

[codfish92]

Another thing you brought up is BBrawl tournaments. Don't mind me asking, but about how many tournaments has BBrawl having? (a month, a week, in it's existance, etc.)

there haven't been any YET. they need to work out the kinks in the codeset before an official is made. it's why this project needs so much feedback and testers.

hopefully soon though, there will be a tournament

 

[Linkshot]

You will have to mod Brawl yourself if you want every stage + WiFi available. Hanenbow is banned.

Also, Timers are broken. The actions of the affected characters slow down without gravity changing. If you insist on items, please turn Assist Trophies and Timers off. I suggest trying it with just food and Sandbag!

 

[ぱみゅ]

So do I have personal thoughts on who the best characters are? Sure, it's almost impossible not to. But those are merely that, and I don't want to create artificial expectations.

something like "I won't argue tiers-like comments". Nice done, not to making people believe there's characters better than the others (specially if there isnt'n even an oficial relase =P)

BTW, here we make weeklies, so, if not problem, I'll use BBrawl on them and I'll tell you about people's reactions on it.