WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[ShadowLink84]

Umm...IIRC, Akuma was banned early on because he was so good. That's why there is no need to bring him into this.

*hits you with a fan*
NOOOOOOO

Bad.
Akuma was banned int he U.S. 9 months upon arriva not only because we saw how good he was, but also beause of how he was dominating the Japanese scene.

he dominated the Japanese scene but was not going 100% over there.
Which is what i meant so I should be clearer

I also never said you were comparing them broken-ness wise. All I was trying to say was that using Akuma as a comparison in tourney dominance isn't a good idea since very early on he was banned (again, IIRC).

ONLY in the U.S. it took longer before japan had him banned Well soft banned but for them its hard banned.

I can bring up Old Sagat but not as many are familiar with the issue with him (some regions have banned him IIRC).

Anyway, lets get back at the topic at hand and leave street fighter out of this.

Guilty Gear is better

 

[AvaricePanda]

@Bladewing, why do these results completely skew your beliefs that MK should be banned?

M2K is the best at this game.

Dojo and Tyrant are both amazing players regardless, and I don't know why people think they're only winning just because they're MK.

DSF and Lee: same thing with Dojo and Tyrant, except that they also used different characters through the bracket.

Seriously, why is it so surprising that the top character is getting the top spots at a tournament? Besides that, a lot of people who do well against MKs didn't show up here. A lot of people who came to WHOBO just happened to be MK. People like Ally, Anther, ADHD, Ninjalink, Fiction, Azen, etc., didn't come to this because of other tournaments/things in their lives.

If this was like the results from Genesis, it would be more compelling, because there you know there's going to be a huge majority of all the region's pros there. However, it didn't have all of the regions' top players here.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Just curious: how many MAJOR tournaments has MK won? Those are the ones that really matter, not the small ones. The character ranking topic doesn't help if that, as it lists all tournaments.

The thing about major tournaments is the best players go to them. A lot of the best players use metaknight. So is it the player winning or the character? You can't really prove it one way or the other.

Imo it is the players.

 

[rehab]

Super Turbo has a rigid spacing game, and Akuma's air fireball chucks it out the window. Having a guaranteed safe jump-in in that game, to say nothing of being invulnerable to stun and being completely invulnerable during low kicks is not reasonably comparable to anything Metaknight has. He is a god. Stop bringing him up.

Even after being rigorously toned down and given quite crappy durability he rrrraaaaapes everybody except Dhalsim (tied with Balrog for best legal character), who he smacks around fine, where MK's matchups are more dangerous and less stupid. They are not on the same level.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The thing about major tournaments is the best players go to them. A lot of the best players use metaknight. So is it the player winning or the character? You can't really prove it one way or the other.

Imo it is the players.

They prove more then the small tournaments, where you can have one good guy and a bunch of scrubs playing. >_>

 

[theONEjanitor]

metaknight is a speedy, one-dimensional character who just happens to have huge hitboxes and be able to fly
just because everyone plays him is not any reason (in fact its a quite terrible reason) to call for his banishment.

those players don't win tournaments because they play metaknight, they win because they're good at the game.

and you people who say "MK is the best, therefore everyone will play him in tournaments" obviously have never been involved in a competitive community before. Obviously the best characters are the most frequentlly picked, but never to such an extent that tthe community become stale

 

[The Halloween Captain]

metaknight is a speedy, one-dimensional character who just happens to have huge hitboxes and be able to fly
just because everyone plays him is not any reason (in fact its a quite terrible reason) to call for his banishment.

those players don't win tournaments because they play metaknight, they win because they're good at the game.

and you people who say "MK is the best, therefore everyone will play him in tournaments" obviously have never been involved in a competitive community before. Obviously the best characters are the most frequentlly picked, but never to such an extent that tthe community become stale

True. And while I could care less about MK, smash is and should be noted as an ususaul community.

The biggest problem with competitive smash specifically is that smash, by nature, is fueled by fans' love of certain characters. When their character can't win, there is little reason to be competitive anymore. I'm amazed that this game has the community it does considering the orgins of all smash was blind fandom.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian - How did whobo convince you that MK is a less bannable character than you initially believed?

I mean I could care less about a ban myself, but I always felt that a game where only one character wins in a cast of a dozen or more made for a lousy competitive game.

One of the main reasons is because I saw first hand how skilled the top players at whobo were. It's VERY obvious to me that they are winning because of their skill, and not their character, and they will continue to do so reguardless of what character they play.

Dojo played in a tournament in Texas recently stacked with good competition and placed 1st losing NO MATCHES AT ALL while only using MK one match the entire tournament. He 2-0'ed players like DMG with Diddy/Kirby.

None of us had even seen his kirby before, and he only plays MK in tournament, yet he still places 1st without losing a single game without metaknight.

 

[ADHD]

Metaknight should be banned, but lets wait for the apex results and genesis. I have to play dojo to see if its possible to beat another somewhere around m2k's level with diddy. And dojo actually knows how to fight diddy >_>. If matchups can't win against those two, then nothing can other than metaknight. M2k seems to DESTROY snake...

 

[Sir Bedevere]

The biggest problem with competitive smash specifically is that smash, by nature, is fueled by fans' love of certain characters. When their character can't win, there is little reason to be competitive anymore. I'm amazed that this game has the community it does considering the orgins of all smash was blind fandom.

I'm sigging this lol.

I don't think there are really any more points that can be made concerning the results of WHOBO. Pretty much all the best MKs, and very few of the best other characters, came, so of course MK was going to dominate. Not much you can argue against there. Genesis is most likely going to be the end-all be-all for MK's ban, and I have a good feeling that the results of Genesis will look nothing like WHOBO (well, other than M2K winning, lol).

 

[Hylian]

I'm sigging this lol.

I don't think there are really any more points that can be made concerning the results of WHOBO. Pretty much all the best MKs, and very few of the best other characters, came, so of course MK was going to dominate. Not much you can argue against there. Genesis is most likely going to be the end-all be-all for MK's ban, and I have a good feeling that the results of Genesis will look nothing like WHOBO (well, other than M2K winning, lol).

You mean except Dojo winning right?

 

[GMo]

I have a good feeling that the results of Genesis will look nothing like WHOBO (well, other than M2K winning, lol).

Really?

M2K is probably going to win. Dojo will probably be top 5. DSF has a great chance too.

All main('cept maybe DSF) MK.

Not to mention all the other excellent MK mains.

Chances are, not only will a MK main win Genesis (M2K) but there will be many MKs to place in the top 10. It is most likely going to have a similar trend to WHOBO.

 

[JOE!]

couldnt read through the -entire- thread but, MK has some "meh" matchups



and cant let go unopposed matchup-wise

 

[Sir Bedevere]

You mean except Dojo winning right?

Haha, I wish I didn't have to miss out on the streaming of the finals, otherwise I might have been able to agree with you to an extent, but I haven't seen enough of Dojo's MK to make that judgment (let alone Dojo vs M2K). It would be amazing to see those two in action in the Genesis finals.

But I guess this isn't the thread to discuss that.

EDIT: Btw, it would not be "except Dojo winning" because the exception being made concerns something, that is claimed to be entirely different from another thing, as having one similarity with said thing, but Dojo winning Genesis would not be similar to WHOBO, as Dojo did not win WHOBO.

/randomnolifenitpicking

@GMo, I didn't mean there wasn't going to be any other MK mains in the top 10, but rather that the top 10 is more than likely going to have a lot less MKs than the results from WHOBO.

7 or so MKs in top 10 is a little crazy. (if you don't look at the other players that is )

3 is pretty justifiable.

Of course, I'm quite optimistic, so I guess you should for a Top 10 of all MKs anyways.

 

[ANTi_]

If The Ec Had Their Capable Players It Would Be A Capable Player Battle!

 

[Snakeee]

I've become a total hypocrite on my standpoint on the ban, but I don't care about that. I'll say what I really feel is true. Earlier on, Metaknight wasn't as broken as he's become now in my eyes.

Metaknight is just too safe and has too many options available in almost every match up at a high level of play. There are so many situations that come up where I literally have no option against him with any of my characters. There are only a couple of characters that even come close to going even with Meta, and IMO there is no character that wins the match up against him, including Snake.

Besides the technical standpoint, it's going to get really boring having Metaknight THIS dominant, and many people may lose interest in Brawl.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Why don't we just work harder? You guys sound like stalin sipporters, and metaknights the czar. Look at vicegrip, ness main, one of the best players in California.

 

[Spade1]

wtf at matchups

Match-ups are subjective for the most part, and saying someone is 65-35 doesn't really mean anything. These arbitrary numbers don't have the results to justify them being any sort of accuarate, and generally stem from theory talk.

qft. Anyone trying to use these numbers to make an argument for pro-ban or anti-ban should take into consideration where these numbers come from.

For the most part, character matchups are just to help you get a general idea on what people's opinion is on the matchup. As much as everyone wants to interpret 60:40 as 60% vs 40%, you're probably better off just interpreting as just an "advantage" since these numbers are unlikely to be backed by statistical evidence.

Ideally, TO's would have to start recording every result/matchup in their tournament and collaborate to get a reliable matchup comparison. (unrealistic)

Perhaps a more possible alternative is TOs begin to collect a random sample n% (n being a number agreed on by smashboards) of the games played in their tournament, and submit the results of those games to sort of a database. (Similar to Ankoku Character Ranking Thread)

So you would take all of the games potentially to be played in your tournament (winners rd 2A game 2, losers rd 3C game 3, etc. all possible games) put in a hat and randomly select n% from the hat. (Computer programs can help you with this) Collect the char matchup and outcomes of those games and submit to the database. (less unrealistic but still would require alot of support)

With time, this could potentially give a better understanding of how the match-ups really stand, especially with the high tiers/popular tournament characters since they are picked more often.

Got a little off topic, but anyway I don't really stand anywhere yet on the pro-ban anti-ban, just didn't character matchups should be used as argument. That will be all.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Why don't we just work harder? You guys sound like stalin sipporters, and metaknights the czar. Look at vicegrip, ness main, one of the best players in California.

Thinking like this says one thing about you. You're in delusional land.


Moving on.



Um, lol, I think MK's is at the bottom of the list of why Brawl should be losing players. You know, like almost no real technical options, no cool combos, more rewards for campers, etc etc. Honestly I dont even know why the **** we play it anymore.

 

[Dantarion]

Heres my position on this.

A lot of the top players play metaknight.
A lot of people play metaknight because he is the best character.
A lot of people play metaknight because the top players use him.
A lot of people secondary metaknight because then they can't be CP'd.

Is MK broken? No, but he is the best, with no counter.
There are no real antimeta options that work.

Even for people who aren't good, playing meta ENSURES that they will do better than they would playing <insert true main here>. If metaknight was banned, all the metaknight users would switch to a myraid of characters. Some would just stick to the other high tiers, but at least those characters have counters, bad stages, etc. Some of them would switch to non-high tiers and provide some entertaining diversity in a world of metas.

I used to really like to watch FICTION play because.... holy **** its WARIO. Have you ever been at a tournament and just listened to the noises, and all you hear is metaknight swords, metaknight tornado, and shuttle loop?

I don't like the super metaknight brothers brawl that brawl is becoming, and a big tourney without metaknight sounds like a breath of fresh air to me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Umm, saying, buck up, get better doesn't address the issues concerning MK as a character.
That is just looking to blame those who want a ban and snakeee certainly is not an lesser player

The issue is simply whether MK is truly a character that needs banning.
Fanboyism has hardly anything to do with it, and its stupid that anyone would bring it up in face of the arguments made for MK's banning.

Its not like MK is an unbeatable character either, but it should be addressed considering a number of players feel that he just overpowers the entire cast.

Frankly, I think everyone needs to sit down, drink a nice cup of milk (thats right milk ) wait for the rest of the large tourneys to finish and then discuss.

 

[Praxis]

Also, just glancing at Ankoku's current character ranking list,
Metaknight-38 wins
Snake-28 wins
Yes, this is still a large number over the rest of the cast but 99% is a gross exageration. Metaknight has roughly 2/5 of the wins in tournaments according to Ankoku's list.

I wish to point out that Ankoku's list is heavily saturated with small tournaments that do not accurately reflect the metagame. Metaknight's lead over Snake increases the larger the tournament you look at. Ankoku's list even has school tournaments.


Also, oddly, it does not include Washington tournament results. >_> I'll look in to that.

ic vs mk is even on neutrals.

What?

No. No it is not.

 

[slikvik]

What?

No. No it is not.

he beat m2ks mk with ICs

 

[Praxis]

Um, lol, I think MK's is at the bottom of the list of why Brawl should be losing players. You know, like almost no real technical options, no cool combos, more rewards for campers, etc etc. Honestly I dont even know why the **** we play it anymore.

Actually, I even like it these days. The game at really high levels becomes an elaborate game of chess. Yes, there are no combos. Yes, it is really defensive. Chess is extremely defensive too- even offensive moves are usually moves designed to force your opponent into a defensive position that will sacrifice another piece.

Yes, the tech level threshhold is reduced, but the level of mental thought that goes into a Brawl match is no less than a Melee match, and I actually really enjoy the battle of minds that goes into it. However, Brawl IS boring to watch someone else play- just like Chess is horrifyingly boring to watch.

couldnt read through the -entire- thread but, MK has some "meh" matchups

MK still has an advantage on all of these.

he beat m2ks mk with ICs

M2K doesn't plank.

(still an impressive feat though)

 

[Turbo Ether]

Apparently the more offensive a fighting game is, the better it is. That said, the next truly competitive fighting game shouldn't even allow blocking or dodging. Defensive options are lame and make the game boring. Who cares about game balance, when you can 0-death your opponent with a pretty combo?!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Apparently the more offensive a fighting game is, the better it is. That said, the next truly competitive fighting game shouldn't even allow blocking or dodging. Defensive options are lame and make the game boring.

The only way a fighting game is ever fun is if getting hit once means losing control of your character for the next 3-4 seconds and losing half of your health.

 

[Deathcarter]

I am certain this point has been brought up before, but does Brawl being Brawl have anything to do with the ignorant whining about MK? A food web of character matchups does not usually matter in most competitive fighters, but Brawl does not have much going for it other than its roster and freedom of control for the player. Melee is, for the most part, less diverse than Brawl, but it has the freedom of control Brawl has and offensive options/fast gameplay to boot. Character diversity helps Brawl a lot and Brawl does have that capability for a divese atmosphere.

I beleive the prospect of many useable characters is one of the main attractions to Brawl's competitive sceene (as it's own entity and not a mere transition from Melee). Most of us don't like how even though we have 19-23 characters that are good enough to say they don't suck and actually have a place in Brawl's tournament dynamic, many of the top players, and more importantly the players not good enough to place top 10 in a decently sized tournament, flock to one character for the hope of being able to compete. But most of the players with experiences in the highest skill level of competitive Smash or experiences in other communities don't talk whine about Meta. It just so happens that these guys are most accepting of Brawl's downsides.

Though I am HIGHLY sure this has been brought up before though maybe not in this thread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I am certain this point has been brought up before, but does Brawl being Brawl have anything to do with the ignorant whining about MK? A food web of character matchups does not usually matter in most competitive fighters, but Brawl does not have much going for it other than its roster and freedom of control for the player. Melee is, for the most part, less diverse than Brawl, but it has the freedom of control Brawl has and offensive options/fast gameplay to boot. Character diversity helps Brawl a lot and Brawl does have that capability for a divese atmosphere.

I beleive the prospect of many useable characters is one of the main attractions to Brawl's competitive sceene (as it's own entity and not a mere transition from Melee). Most of us don't like how even though we have 19-23 characters that are good enough to say they don't suck and actually have a place in Brawl's tournament dynamic, many of the top players, and more importantly the players not good enough to place top 10 in a decently sized tournament, flock to one character for the hope of being able to compete. But most of the players with experiences in the highest skill level of competitive Smash or experiences in other communities don't talk whine about Meta. It just so happens that these guys are most accepting of Brawl's downsides.

Though I am HIGHLY sure this has been brought up before though maybe not in this thread.

It has. People who compete at the highest level are taught not to actually complain about anything openly, because the competitive mindset is that anything is workable no matter what and anything can be overcome. While technically true this attitude is sometimes bad for the community, even if complaining about something makes me a scrub for a few minutes.

Meta Knight players could discover an AT that makes them invincible for 15 seconds after a throw and the top players would say something like "don't get grabbed." It's just the way they are. It's their role.

 

[Deleted member]

It has. People who compete at the highest level are taught not to actually complain about anything openly, because the competitive mindset is that anything is workable no matter what and anything can be overcome. While technically true this attitude is sometimes bad for the community, even if complaining about something makes me a scrub for a few minutes.

Meta Knight players could discover an AT that makes them invincible for 15 seconds after a throw and the top players would say something like "don't get grabbed." It's just the way they are. It's their role.

...
Are you kidding me? Do you actually believe that?

Lol
That is all

 

[po pimpus]

I don't know guys. I mean I'm super old-school and generally avoid talks of bans on anything, but this Metaknight debacle just gets worse by the day. What point is there to a game that boils down to one character and one character only? How many more Meta-ditto finals are we gonna sit through before people start saying, "F-this, I'm gonna go play SF4..."

Normally, when I hear people complain about Meta, I would say, "Suck it up and get better." However, I'm past that point. I play Luigi. When there is little to no Meta, I place fine. When it's Shuttle Loop City, I rarely make it past pools. No, I don't and haven't won any notable tournies, but I am no scrub when it comes to Smash. Even when I was getting swatted around by Marths and Foxes in Melee, I held my own. I always had a small margin for victory. I always had a CHANCE to beat them. It's the same in Brawl-- I'm disadvantaged, but not a guaranteed win for you high-tier guys. Not unless you play Metaknight...

Yes, you could argue that my character choice has a terrible time with Metaknight, and that's true. Yet, there is something terribly, terribly wrong when you're beating someone's Metaknight, BADLY, and then get Shuttle Loop'd at 0-15% and DIE. For all your momentum, all the Up-B kills, all your DI, YOU STILL DIE AND LOSE BECAUSE YOUR OPPONENT GOT SCARED AND SLAPPED HIS CONTROLLER LIKE AN EPILEPTIC SPIDER MONKEY AND KILLED YOU.

You had your opponent's number, area code, and home address, and he just took you out. You're going to the Loser's Bracket, or worse, going Home, because of ONE MOVE. You played your butt off, anticpated and strategized at every step, and you still lost, not because he was better than you, but because his CHARACTER(specifically, Shuttle Loop's broken knockback) is THAT **** GOOD.

If we keep going like this, Triple H will need a new nickname, because not he, but Metaknight will be, THE GAME.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

...
Are you kidding me? Do you actually believe that?

Lol
That is all

There would be at least 2 top players who said "LOL DONT GET GRABBED" yes.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

couldnt read through the -entire- thread but, MK has some "meh" matchups

ROFL. Those are HILARIOUS. Especially Yoshi. I thought that fad was over?

 

[MrEh]

ROFL. Those are HILARIOUS. Especially Yoshi. I thought that fad was over?

lol Yoshi

I can personally vouch that Bowser does ok against MK. However, once MK learns the matchup, it becomes another one of Bowser's "I'm screwed" matchups.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Did anyone at WHOBO use Pikachu and implement his 0-60% chaingrab? None of the top 8 used Pikachu so I'd guess not. That's very obviously matchup changing so if it hasn't been put to the test at a major tournament yet, I think it's silly to worry about Meta Knight.

Also, in response to the original post, I'm pretty sure Pikachu is going to be keeping Falco in check far more than Meta Knight. Pikachu can chaingrab Falco up to over 100%! I know Pikachu isn't on a lot of people's radar right now, but he's overdue for a major rise. Before worrying about pretty much anything else in the metagame, I think it would be a good idea to wait and see where he goes and how it affects everyone else.

 

[Mew2King]

I DUNNO GUYS, Bwett's Yoshi beat DSF's MK in pools match at WHOBO

and some Lucas called phoenix alpha did too in the same pool

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And yet the grand finals was yet another impossibly boring Meta Knight ditto.

 

[Cirno]

But you come to me and you go but fikshun, fikshun! wario loses on FD! its his worst stage!

Haha, I can see you and Skyy are good friends. That's nice.

Earlier on, Metaknight wasn't as broken as he's become now in my eyes.

But still broken huh?
;D


I'm really curious as to where was the turning point for you.
You're one of the players I think of when I consider the validity high level match ups and the ability of a player to outsmart their opponent, so if you've become pro-ban you must've experienced something interesting.

Metaknight is just too safe and has too many options available in almost every match up at a high level of play.

What is too safe?

How many are too many options?


And if this is true, why do we have instances where high level players like Claw defeat players like DSF?

Is DSF not good enough to utilize all of MKs options in certain matchups ?

There are so many situations that come up where I literally have no option against him with any of my characters.

That's what I ask myself when deciding whether a character is viable or not:


Is it me who feels like I have no options against this player ?


Or is it this character who has no options against this character ?

There are only a couple of characters that even come close to going even with Meta, and IMO there is no character that wins the match up against him, including Snake.

I'm not sure what you consider close to going even or a couple but if it's 55/45 then the Matchup Chart and list would not agree, and based on high level matches he has several.

And even if he did only have a literal couple (Wario and Snake) why isn't that enough?

If you remove MK Marth will be the exact same way (Snake and DDD) won't that create the same problem again?

Besides the technical standpoint, it's going to get really boring having Metaknight THIS dominant, and many people may lose interest in Brawl.

Why just MK?

Why isn't it going to get boring if any character is this dominant?

If 68% of the players at Hobo 16 played ZSS and the top 8 ended up ( lol no offense):

1: M2K=DDD,Marth
2: Claw=ZSS
3: Snakee=ZSS
4: Neo=Marth
5: Pyro=ZSS
5: Lain=IC,ZSS
7: D1=ZSS
7: Shadow=ZSS


Would it be really boring? Do you think many people start to lose interest in Brawl?

Just to clarify I don't think so myself in a MK dominant situation or a ZSS situation since I felt melee Marth was much worse than MK , and these are not 'points' I'm just curious as to what you think since you're a player who I respect greatly.

 

[Jupz]

Well IMO metaknight would be banned because without him every character has counters and its like a web. For example

DDD>snake
falco>DDD
marth>falco
DDD>marth

or

DDD>snake
G&W>DDD
snake>G&W

those are just some examples. but everyone is entwined in the web except metaknight.

I don't want to get into any heated discusiion, just expressing my opinion And I do have fun using Metaknight, hes probably my 4th most used character

 

[1048576]

We should have a "Who do you main in tournaments" poll to see if MK has overcentralized the meta.

 

[Shaya]

Most of the people who would vote in that poll would ignore the fact that they don't go to tournaments and would say "Sonic" or "Lucas".