WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[ShadowLink84]

who cares about speed i was talking about RANGE. I've fought people with snake that I know will do overspaced attacks (such as Marth SH Fair) and countered with a quick double hit F tilt so the 2nd hit would overpower their move and hit them.

Its not just the range. It is also the speed compounded along with the range.
of course if someone improperly spaces a move you can punish them for it, I was referring to when it is properly spaced.

btw this isn't super theory brawl if only things worked that way

Read my post I ackowledged it

also idk if this is common knowledge or not but snake can shield release into a jab -> f tilt between mks down tilts if it's close enough. I never did actual frame tests to a big extent like i did in melee but I know that much works. Shield grabbing at close range works too

This was tested with frame data m2k. I wouldn't mention it otherwise.

 

[BentoBox]

I'll embrace you. =D

*Humps sky like a furry*

If you were actually smart enough to read through the topic it should be clear that I'm talking about STAGE CPs.

Still doesn't hold truth. Snakes do not want to face Warios on Brinstar. I do not like to face Marths on BF with Wario. Like Fiction said, it's match-up dependent.

 

[Nic64]

Snake can't be stage CP'd WHAT? XFD

 

[Snakeee]

I'm actually for the ban now.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Plus it's already been mentioned that stages aren't universally bad or good for characters. While Meta-Knight is good on all stages, as a Diddy, I'd CP FD and Smashville because they're two of my best stages that help with my strengths and help me cope with his strengths.

Saying, "So many characters have so much untapped potential," is such a general, vague statement that I can't really understand or fully take it seriously. And even so...that's kind of a moot argument. As for the top tiers, I see Snake, Wario, and Diddy having a constantly evolving meta-game, and because of that, they'd get better at the MK match-up, right? Only problem is that MK's constantly evolving too. So yeah.

But in general, be less vague because I honestly don't know what characters you're talking about with untapped potential.

And as for match-ups, people are acting as if 6:4 or 65:35 match-ups are unwinnable. Take Shiz vs. ChuDat at Revival of Melee. Falco vs. Ice Climbers. Even though Ice climbers have a good advantage, Shiz was still able to win because of great spacing and generally everything.

For the record, I'm against the banning of MK. I only targetted the thing about untapped potential because it was a moot argument and a pretty vague statement.

 

[Tyr_03]

If we've already established that Metaknight has atleast one even matchup then I don't understand how this argument can continue. An even matchup implies that Metaknight has as much chance of losing as his opponent assuming equal skill. The fact that a lot of good players main Metaknight doesn't mean that he's unbeatable. It might just mean that those players are better than you. Imagine that.

The simple fact that Metaknight does not win every tournament proves that he does not ruin the game's competitive viability. If he does not ruin the game's competitive viability, he should not be banned. Basing your argument off one big tournament is really idiotic. Even basing it off several big tournaments within the span of about a year is idiotic because it doesn't take into account the developement of the metagame over time and it still a relatively small sample size.

Metaknight has weaknesses. Fiction is right. Just because your character has a bad (or horrid) matchup against a character doesn't mean that character is overpowered. It just means you might need to use a different character who goes even with Metaknight.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So Metaknight needs dominate 100% instead of 99% of the tournaments?
IIRC Akuma did not dominate 100% of the tournaments but was banned anyway
So how much is needed for him to be considered too dominating?

That is another question that hardly anyone seems to have a definite answer for.

 

[Praxis]

If we've already established that Metaknight has atleast one even matchup then I don't understand how this argument can continue. An even matchup implies that Metaknight has as much chance of losing as his opponent assuming equal skill.

...

Metaknight has weaknesses. Fiction is right. Just because your character has a bad (or horrid) matchup against a character doesn't mean that character is overpowered. It just means you might need to use a different character who goes even with Metaknight.

And who is that? Snake's not even. Wario's not even on most stages, and when you include planking (which is not banned/enforced at most tournaments), is significantly disadvantaged.

MK doesn't have any even matchups. I've stated that Wario is arguable because Wario has an even matchup on some stages (like FD), but only if planking is banned (which it is not) and he's usually at a disadvantage.

MK is his own worst matchup.

So how much is needed for him to be considered too dominating?

Agreed. Tyr's post seemed to me to be constantly raising the bar and stating that it wasn't enough. "basing it off of several big tournaments within the spam of about a year is idiotic"...you're simply setting the standard so high that there's nothing that can meet it to make him bannable in your mind.

It just means you might need to use a different character who goes even with Metaknight.

Who?

Name me the character I need to play.

 

[Flayl]

Every game has their SAGAT you scrubs.

In case you didn't get it, Sagat is the best in Street Fighter 4, and only has 4 even matchups. SOUND FAMILIAR?

 

[meepxzero]

ic vs mk is even on neutrals.

Whoever is smarter is going to win at the highest level of play.

if mk were to be banned for any other reason its cuz he destroys a good amount of the cast, but look at sheik in melee shes exactly the same as mk but to a lesser extent.

 

[Bowser King]

So Metaknight needs dominate 100% instead of 99% of the tournaments?
IIRC Akuma did not dominate 100% of the tournaments but was banned anyway
So how much is needed for him to be considered too dominating?

That is another question that hardly anyone seems to have a definite answer for.

Please, don't compare Akuma to MK.

MK may be banned or not banned but there is no way he will EVER be as broken as Akuma.

Not banning akuma would have been a pretty big mistake.

@flayl

street fighter 4 is pretty early in it's metagame. It might not change but even then when you look at results he's not really dominating (the second best char only has a few less wins)

-Bowser King

 

[Turbo Ether]

I guess most of the people here haven't seen how badly ADHD pisses on MK with Diddy Kong.

 

[AvariceX]

Please, don't compare Akuma to MK.

MK may be banned or not banned but there is no way he will EVER be as broken as Akuma.

Not banning akuma would have been a pretty big mistake.
Bowser King

This.

Akuma was one of those obviously made-to-be-godlike-and-broken characters in ST and there wasn't even really a chance for him to have a place in the competitive scene; he was banned before any real competition was established.

 

[cutter]

ic vs mk is even on neutrals.

Whoever is smarter is going to win at the highest level of play.

if mk were to be banned for any other reason its cuz he destroys a good amount of the cast, but look at sheik in melee shes exactly the same as mk but to a lesser extent.

Actually I believe DDD is the Sheik of Brawl. DDD basically has the same kind of autowin matchups like Sheik had.

 

[Tyr_03]

We're talking about banning a character that literally hundreds of people use as their main character. Why would we not raise the bar to a high standard? If we had not set the bar high in the first place for a ban (as it should be,) Snake would have been banned in the first few months when everyone considered him overpowered.

Also, just glancing at Ankoku's current character ranking list,
Metaknight-38 wins
Snake-28 wins
Yes, this is still a large number over the rest of the cast but 99% is a gross exageration. Metaknight has roughly 2/5 of the wins in tournaments according to Ankoku's list. Not even 50%. Don't throw out random numbers. This data also doesn't take into account the sheer number of top level players and just tournament going players in general who main Metaknight. If you want to look into the massive numbers of top 8 and whatnot that MK has as well, you're welcome to but wins are pretty much all that most of us care about here since if MK is indeed so overpowered and bannable, he should be winning all the time.

For a character with no one that even goes even against him (as some of you claim) he's not really doing so well.

Metaknight may be overpowered in some aspects and an annoyingly good character but he is not so good that he deserves being banned. He is not dominating tournament winnings. He does not even have the majority of the wins currently.

 

[Blistering Speed]

People have this really strange reluctancy to accept an even matchup with MK. Wario, Falco, Pikachu, Snake and IC's OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD all have either even or very close to even matchups with MK, people just refuse to accept it for reasons beyond me. Before you say that none of those are disadvantages, then that's common with fighting games. In fact, it's common in this freaking series, Pikachu in SSB64 and Fox in SSBM didn't have disadvantages and couldn't be stage CP'd.

I won't bother confronting little multi quotes throughout this topic so far because frankly, it's too easy.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

People have this really strange reluctancy to accept an even matchup with MK. Wario, Falco, Pikachu, Snake and IC's OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD all have either even or very close to even matchups with MK, people just refuse to accept it for reasons beyond me. Before you say that none of those are disadvantages, then that's common with fighting games. In fact, it's common in this freaking series, Pikachu in SSB64 and Fox in SSBM didn't have disadvantages and couldn't be stage CP'd.

I won't bother confronting little multi quotes throughout this topic so far because frankly, it's too easy.

You know, I heard the Touhou fighting games are supposed to be insanely balanced. I think the spread from best to worst character is 60% to 40% That's a win to loss %.

This is more relevent to there not being fighting games where the top character has a disadvantage - none of the characters seem to have a big disadvantage, but they also don't seem to have an advantage, from what i heard.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Please, don't compare Akuma to MK.

MK may be banned or not banned but there is no way he will EVER be as broken as Akuma.

Not banning akuma would have been a pretty big mistake.


-Bowser King

Thisis one thing that really irks me
There is NO COMPARISON BEING MADE BETWEEN THE TWO CHARACTERS.

I AM TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE IN TERMS OF DOMINANCE.
AKUMA DID NOT DOMINATE 100% OF ALL TOURNAMENTS YET HE WAS BANNED, AS SUCH, I AM ASKING AS TO WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO BEING OVERLY DOMINATE BY USING A CHARACTER WHO IS CLEARLY BROKEN.

NO COMPARISON IS BEING MADE!


What people see Akuma and go, WOMG COMPARISON!

No comparison between the characters of MK and Akuma is being made period. get that nonsense out of your head.

 

[Deathcarter]

People have this really strange reluctancy to accept an even matchup with MK. Wario, Falco, Pikachu, Snake and IC's OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD all have either even or very close to even matchups with MK, people just refuse to accept it for reasons beyond me. Before you say that none of those are disadvantages, then that's common with fighting games. In fact, it's common in this freaking series, Pikachu in SSB64 and Fox in SSBM didn't have disadvantages and couldn't be stage CP'd.

I won't bother confronting little multi quotes throughout this topic so far because frankly, it's too easy.

With the exception of Snake, most of those characters don't have metagames that were explored to even half of the degree of MK's. Warios haven't even been aircamping until a month and a half ago for example.

Another part of it might have to do with MK's ability to plank a lot of those characters; Falco and Wario don't have effective means of countering planking. Though if this is a concern, why don't we utilize some of the tame walf-off stages like Bridge of Eldin and Mario Circuit for all non-Dedede matches?

 

[Tyr_03]

As stated in my clearly ignored previous post, Metaknight currently has a less than 2/5 win rate according to Ankoku's list. How can this even remotely be considered dominating especially with the number of top players who use Metaknight?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

With the exception of Snake, most of those characters don't have metagames that were explored to even half of the degree of MK's. Warios haven't even been aircamping until a month and a half ago for example.

Another part of it might have to do with MK's ability to plank a lot of those characters; Falco and Wario don't have effective means of countering planking. Though if this is a concern, why don't we utilize some of the tame walf-off stages like Bridge of Eldin and Mario Circuit for all non-Dedede matches?

You know, most competitive fighting game communities would have used the Metal Gear Solid stage in spite of King Dedede. They wouldn't view D3's infinities as a problem.

 

[Hylian]

Match-ups are subjective for the most part, and saying someone is 65-35 doesn't really mean anything. These arbitrary numbers don't have the results to justify them being any sort of accuarate, and generally stem from theory talk.

*plays random person at a tournament*

Random person: *snickers as they do well on the first stock* "Diddy is so easy to beat GW with"

Me: *beats them solidly*

Them: "Wow, I didn't think the match-up was that even!"

Me: *Puts head down*


When people say someone is 60-40 vs someone what do they mean? That the character listed as 60 should win 6/10 games played with the other character at equal skill? If that's so, then tournaments disprove pretty much every match-up ratio.

What about specifics in the match-up? One character might be better at edgeguarding, while the other has a more controlling ground game.

What is the difference between 60-40 and 65-35? Where do stages come into play? What about stage position?

Do you just say "so and so is 60-40" because others say it? How many of you are just echoing others? How many of you are using your own experiences?

When people gasp at someone in a disadvantaged match-up winning, they usually don't even stop to think that maybe they players are reading each other and playing off that rather then the characters.

Knowing a ton of stuff about a match-up is fine and all, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't know what your opponent is going to do with their character.

Yes, some characters have more options then others in certain match-ups. But knowing these options and being able to defend and counteract against them is what brings match-ups like marth vs mk closer to even. The players can play against each other evenly matched if they understand what the other person is doing, and then the characters start to matter much less.

I can see why people are getting upset at the whobo results. That is actually something worth arguing about. All this match-up nonsense is insane, especially with all the subjectivity and people who don't know what they are talking about.

Let's jump off the bandwagon for a second?

Oh, and for the record I was for banning MK before. After ATTENDING whobo, I am now very much so against it.

 

[Ozone.]

Ok, what do guys want to do? Put an international limit on how many can use a certain character? Get outta here. If it was ever established that snake was the at the very top of the tier lists people would main snake all over the world alot too.

I remember a REALLY long time ago before SWF released their tier list, these guys on gameFAQS named longhornfan and silver-flash made a tier lists that actually had tourny results implemented. Snake was on top until they changed it after SWF released theirs. Back then people *****ed about snake like crazy but nobody said anything about metaknight until SWF said otherwise. Get used to it.

 

[Master Raven]

As far as planking is concerned, it depends on how severe the planking actually is.

 

[Hylian]

As far as planking is concerned, it depends on how severe the planking actually is.

Someone needs to plank me, because everyone who has tried has failed :/.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

NinjaLink - How did whobo convince you that MK is a less bannable character than you initially believed?

I mean I could care less about a ban myself, but I always felt that a game where only one character wins in a cast of a dozen or more made for a lousy competitive game.

 

[Turbo Ether]

You know, most competitive fighting game communities would have used the Metal Gear Solid stage in spite of King Dedede. They wouldn't view D3's infinities as a problem.

It's not a problem.

 

[Hylian]

NinjaLink - How did whobo convince you that MK is a less bannable character than you initially believed?

I mean I could care less about a ban myself, but I always felt that a game where only one character wins in a cast of a dozen or more made for a lousy competitive game.

Did you just call me Ninjalink?

 

[Ozone.]

LMAO!!!! thats hilarious @ halloween!!!!

 

[Bowser King]

Thisis one thing that really irks me
There is NO COMPARISON BEING MADE BETWEEN THE TWO CHARACTERS.

I AM TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE IN TERMS OF DOMINANCE.
AKUMA DID NOT DOMINATE 100% OF ALL TOURNAMENTS YET HE WAS BANNED, AS SUCH, I AM ASKING AS TO WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO BEING OVERLY DOMINATE BY USING A CHARACTER WHO IS CLEARLY BROKEN.

NO COMPARISON IS BEING MADE!


What people see Akuma and go, WOMG COMPARISON!

No comparison between the characters of MK and Akuma is being made period. get that nonsense out of your head.

Umm...IIRC, Akuma was banned early on because he was so good. That's why there is no need to bring him into this.

I also never said you were comparing them broken-ness wise. All I was trying to say was that using Akuma as a comparison in tourney dominance isn't a good idea since very early on he was banned (again, IIRC).

Anyway, lets get back at the topic at hand and leave street fighter out of this.


-Bowser King

 

[brinboy789]

It's not a problem.

i listened to the vid in your sig and its amazing how well it corresponds to this arguement

 

[AvaricePanda]

inorite.

For whatever reason, people think that knowing a number and a few good and bad points against a character means they know the match-up. Really, I only use match-up numbers as a reference point. I'm more concerned about both of our strengths/weaknesses, styles of play opposing character has, things I can abuse against said character, things about the other character I can circumvent, etc. etc.

People saying, "Wario has a 45:55 matchup against MK, MK has no disadvantageous match-ups, ban him," aren't realizing that not only is 45:55 a subjective number, but even if it wasn't, 45:55 is still very easily winnable. Plus, most people can probably only speak for their main about the match-ups they know. I'm not going to walk around and pretend I know the Snake vs. MK, or Wario vs. MK matchups. I can only speak for Diddy, really.

 

[Deathcarter]

As far as planking is concerned, it depends on how severe the planking actually is.

Planking is usually not THAT severe. The only exception to this is Meta Knight since he is very adept at it. Honestly, if it were not for him being able to plank so well that he has an advantage over otherwise non broken matchups, threads like this would not exist or be locked on sight. There is simply no way to eliminate it unless you either make more rules against it or play on stages where planking is impossible.

Someone needs to plank me, because everyone who has tried has failed :/.

Well you can say that because you play a character that can deal with planking. The problem with planking is it almost breaks certain matchups (except those against players that can maintain a lead) when you factor in the rules of competetive play. Though no one would complain if it only affected to characters that get owned by Meta Knight anyway.

Though I agree that Meta Knight does not need to be banned.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

NinjaLink - How did whobo convince you that MK is a less bannable character than you initially believed?

I mean I could care less about a ban myself, but I always felt that a game where only one character wins in a cast of a dozen or more made for a lousy competitive game.

I think you meant hylian?

Anyway his post was totally right about matchups. Can anyone really prove any matchup is 60-40 or whatever? No. It is all just subjective poop pulled out of an anecdotal ***. If the data were to actually be collected on how many times "x" character beats "y" character and matchups were determined by that, the numbers would likely be way different. Nobody can prove if metaknight does or does not have even matchups.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Did you just call me Ninjalink?

Sorry about that.

 

[Bladewing]

I just wanna say that after seeing these results I'm inclined to either quitting this game and completely going back to Magic or hope that Metaknight gets banned.

This coming from a guy who was neutral, leaning toward not banning metaknight, before the whobo results.

 

[KRDsonic]

I personally don't see why people are bringing other fighting games into this, since people could just say:

"In pokemon, Garchomp had counters, but the meta game centralized around him, so he was banned. Meta Knight has no counters, and the meta game centralizes around him, so he should be banned."

Brawl is Brawl. SF4 is SF4. Pokemon is Pokemon. IMO, they shouldn't determine who does and doesn't get banned just because another does/doesn't ban someone.



I'm actually more on the "keep Meta unbanned" side, after reading this whole arguement, though I really do prefer having variety every now and then, since MK is way too common already, and he's almost all I see now. (Though that's what having a couple MK-banned tournys in Texas is for, to change it up a bit)

 

[Teh_Chef]

I think you meant hylian?

Anyway his post was totally right about matchups. Can anyone really prove any matchup is 60-40 or whatever? No. It is all just subjective poop pulled out of an anecdotal ***. If the data were to actually be collected on how many times "x" character beats "y" character and matchups were determined by that, the numbers would likely be way different. Nobody can prove if metaknight does or does not have even matchups.

Well, if we could just find a robot programmed to play Smash that plays MK, maybe we could find the exact matchup ratio for each character against him!
*Stares at M2K*

 

[The Halloween Captain]

This situation is kinda odd. On the one hand, it's not competitive to ban MK, and on the other, I can't imagine a game being good competitively that has such dominence of a single character. The biggest problem with competitive smash specifically is that smash, by nature, is fueled by fans' love of certain characters. When their character can't win, there is little reason to be competitive anymore. I'm amazed that this game has the community it does considering the orgins of all smash was blind fandom and the desire to beat up one Nintendo character with whichever character is your favorite.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just curious: how many MAJOR tournaments has MK won? Those are the ones that really matter, not the small ones. The character ranking topic doesn't help if that, as it lists all tournaments.