WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[KayLo!]

Personally, I'm also just plain bored of watching MK matches. He's a fun character to fight against, but after the fifty billionth time, you start wanting a little diversity.

I've seen so many MK vs. MK, Snake vs. MK, and X-character-who-at-least-has-a-chance vs. MK matches, I think they'll last me a lifetime. It's making tournament finals really.... repetitive. For me, at least. *shrug*

 

[Nic64]

Meta Knight remains the only character that isn't complemented well by learning a secondary.

actually meta knight is greatly aided by secondaries, like DDD is amazing because he counters almost everyone that does well against MK and you also see a lot of MK/Snake or MK/Falco pairs, MK is just the best choice for a double blind/you don't know who your opponent is playing, if you know they play a character that someone else ***** and you play that character, it helps.

it would be true to say that MK doesn't need secondaries and if you want to play solely one character, MK is by far your best option, and meta knight is the only character choice you can make that doesn't put you at a disadvantage against meta knight.

3. It has been shown many times that instrumentalists who can focus on a single instrument are more likely to be the first chair guy in the London Symphony Orchestra than the guy who plays all of the woodwinds. As a result, there aren't many amazing classical saxophonists out there. That's because in order to get anywhere as a classical sax player, you need a clarinet secondary. So why not just play clarinet?

all depends on your goals, learning more instruments may make you better at music in general, it may be especially beneficial if you wanted to be a composer for instance although also totally not necessary

and yes, RC is ********

Plus theres a lot of Ganons that could make it pretty high without metaknight.

what

 

[Master Raven]

Actually at least one even matchup would solve the problem.

Why do you HAVE to have to be CPed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its not really competitive gaming if no one can compete with the character

 

[Master Raven]

With an even matchup it's truly the better player who wins, not just with partial aid from the character.

 

[RP`]

nvm

10nvms

 

[Sethlon]

Why are you focusing so much on match-ups? Can any of you tell me what characters countered fox in melee? None? Oh right.

But fox you could atleast counterpick stages against. There are very few foxes who could/can beat my roy on FD.

 

[tekkie]

Metaknight was built obnoxiously better than other characters. It's disgusting.

And as such, he's the only real option for those who want a chance at winning big. As such, there's only three choices for competitive people:

1) Settle with an inferior character and deal with it, or
2) Use MK

Banning him leaves option one, but then everyone will just scatter around the other few top tier characters (most probably using Snake, because that ****er's pretty broken too.) So it would probably alleviate some problems, but not act as a total fix.

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

Banned or not banned, MK has left significance in the Brawl communality.

If MK was banned, everyone would switch to the next best thing (let's just say Snake) and everyone would use him and Grenade camp.

Then we would want to ban Snake because he's unstoppable.

It's just a big cycle that won't end. I personally fell banning MK won't do much anyway.

 

[Marcbri]

Plus theres a lot of Ganons that could make it pretty high without metaknight.

lolwut? banning all top and high tier characters, Ganon would still be non-viable. come on you just need pressing random buttons with sheik to win a Ganon xD


on the other side of the discussion, Falco has some bad match-ups and lots of even or 6-4 matchups and Marth gets soft-countered by snake and DK and countered by DDD

I think we should wait for some more tournaments results ( Genesis for example) before arguing if mk should be banned or not, right now I don't want him banned but I dunno if this turns into super metaknight bros.brawl I may change my mind ._.

 

[Suspect]

snake has bad matchups

 

[Gnes]

Banned or not banned, MK has left significance in the Brawl communality.

If MK was banned, everyone would switch to the next best thing (let's just say Snake) and everyone would use him and Grenade camp.

Then we would want to ban Snake because he's unstoppable.

It's just a big cycle that won't end. I personally fell banning MK won't do much anyway.

Co18 steps in...whos unstoppable?

:3 Co18

 

[KuroKitt10]

One thing that I do find interesting is that Metaknight is still proving to be a strong character choice despite how flooded the tournaments are with him. If anything, this says to me that he's an extremely strong character more than anything. People are getting a LOT of experience with the Metaknight match-up, and they are STILL having problems. If there were a broad spectrum of counters to Metaknight, one could safely say we would have started finding them by now.

The fact that he is STILL giving everyone problems, despite the experience everyone has gained in this match-up, says quite a lot about his strength, in my opinion. As for whether or not he deserves a ban, I can't really say. But I think we can all agree with he's a character will next to no weaknesses.

Mew.

 

[Nic64]

If MK was banned, everyone would switch to the next best thing (let's just say Snake) and everyone would use him and Grenade camp.

Then we would want to ban Snake because he's unstoppable.

It's just a big cycle that won't end. I personally fell banning MK won't do much anyway.

IMO Snake loses to DDD and has slight disadvantages to Olimar, Wario, and ROB. Even with Pikachu and Falco. Some people would say has a disadvantage to Pikachu and Falco and less so Olimar, just my opinion anyway...

I think with MK out of the picture Snake doesn't necessarily become the best character, his slight disadvantage to MK where others are more clearly countered by him is a lot of what makes him successful, Snake loves MK's metagame(the bat destroys the robots and the penguins!). Sure, Snake loses to MK too, but it's very winnable, MK keeps Snake's actual worst matchups down.

So no, I don't think it would become everyone using Snake. Not to say that it does or doesn't warrant a ban but again, I find the slippery slope argument foolish.

edit: I know you're just using snake as an example but IMO there isn't a clear best character in an MKless metagame, I think there's like 3-5 characters who'd be in the running for that and it'd be close...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The only problem with MK is that he shows the problem with being competitive. The character limits you to play MK at some of the highest levels. However, being severely limited in the viable character selection is a normal thing for high-level competitive fighting games. Doing something about it, such as banning MK, would only lessen the problem, not fix it.

 

[bobson]

Ok, first of all, why was anybody in this thread jumping on ISP's nuts? IIRC, and I better considering I helped out at WHOBO, ISP ran very well, and we had little to no complaints at all. We actually had people complaining that Easter Sunday screwed over the 1v1 ISP, so there you go. Besides, ISP has nothing to do with MK.

Yeah, we should've canceled Easter so we could get a better turnout.

ISP has a little to do with Metaknight; it stops planking, which is an advantage he's gained since the last time we discussed banning him.

 

[Suspect]

Next...people are gonna start complaining about diddy being able to use bananas.

cry moar brawl community

 

[ssbbFICTION]

You are all stupid, stupid idiots. I'm tired of debating people who have no idea in the world what they are talking about. They just throw out random little crap arguments that they've thought of or heard elsewhere. Unless you actually know whats going on in the competitive scene, and you actually place well, just get out of the freaking thread already.

 

[KayLo!]

but I dunno if this turns into super metaknight bros.brawl I may change my mind ._.

Where have you been? It already has.

 

[Junk DGH]

You are all stupid, stupid idiots. I'm tired of debating people who have no idea in the world what they are talking about. They just throw out random little crap arguments that they've thought of or heard elsewhere. Unless you actually know whats going on in the competitive scene, and you actually place well, just get out of the freaking thread already.

youre an idiot for that post

most ppl are dumb but theres no need to play their game

 

[Suspect]

You are all stupid, stupid idiots. I'm tired of debating people who have no idea in the world what they are talking about. They just throw out random little crap arguments that they've thought of or heard elsewhere. Unless you actually know whats going on in the competitive scene, and you actually place well, just get out of the freaking thread already.

Calling people stupid idiots and them telling them that there arguments are not legit, does not make you right. Im also feeling a lil "elitism" from your post.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

youre an idiot for that post

most ppl are dumb but theres no need to play their game

I'm not "playing their game", I'm telling it how it is. Soooo many people in threads like these have no clue what is going on and repeat some lame old argument that has no grounds whatsoever and act like it should prove something.

 

[Master Raven]

FICTION is right. What else is new right now?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm not "playing their game", I'm telling it how it is. Soooo many people in threads like these have no clue what is going on and repeat some lame old argument that has no grounds whatsoever and act like it should prove something.

Sadly, very true.

 

[shadowlink3]

Its always the same argument cause no one can think of a new 1.

 

[Suspect]

there is no new one

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Its always the same argument cause no one can think of a new 1.

And because no one can change their mind.

I find that competitive anything is kind of pointless. The competitive strategies are good at every level, but the low-level strategies can't be implemented effectively at high levels of play, which ultimately limits the number of options you have that lead to victory. Not only that, but competitive playing isolates you further and further within your own game the better you get, until tournaments and a select few friends are the only hope of finding any fun or challenge left in the game. I found this out at very low-level competing, where even though I was crushed in early rounds of small regional tournaments, I was still too much better than anyone I knew to have fun with the game anymore. Going competitive is the reason I quit smash except when I'm with friends, and the problem with MK demonstrates one of the many problems with having a competitive scene at all.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

And because no one can change their mind.

I find that competitive anything is kind of pointless. The competitive strategies are good at every level, but the low-level strategies can't be implemented effectively at high levels of play, which ultimately limits the number of options you have that lead to victory. Not only that, but competitive playing isolates you further and further within your own game the better you get, until tournaments and a select few friends are the only hope of finding any fun or challenge left in the game. I found this out at very low-level competing, where even though I was crushed in early rounds of small regional tournaments, I was still too much better than anyone I knew to have fun with the game anymore. Going competitive is the reason I quit smash except when I'm with friends, and the problem with MK demonstrates one of the many problems with having a competitive scene at all.

Why are you telling us your life story in a thread about banning mk 0_o

Its sort of funny that I used to want MK banned. Why? Because I sucked. Now that I realize hes not that great, I don't think he should be banned >_< ugh

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why are you telling us your life story in a thread about banning mk 0_o

Its sort of funny that I used to want MK banned. Why? Because I sucked. Now that I realize hes not that great, I don't think he should be banned >_< ugh

Because no one had anything new to add.

To add something new when every point everyone else can think up has been made, you either have to think differently than everyone else, or talk about something different than everyone else.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Because no one had anything new to add.

To add something new when every point everyone else can think up has been made, you either have to think differently than everyone else, or talk about something different than everyone else.

If you aren't saying anything with relevance to the thread, you should not be posting in it...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why are you telling us your life story in a thread about banning mk 0_o

Its sort of funny that I used to want MK banned. Why? Because I sucked. Now that I realize hes not that great, I don't think he should be banned >_< ugh

When I sucked, I wanted MK banned.

But even after I beat the best MK in my area, it just seemed to be that much clearer to me why MK should be banned

 

[ssbbFICTION]

When I sucked, I wanted MK banned.

But even after I beat the best MK in my area, it just seemed to be that much clearer to me why MK should be banned

But that doesnt make any sense lol.

 

[Mr.-0]

Wait, there are other poeple in CA that play brawl! I'm not alone, yay!!!! Starts crying out of happiness.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Wait, there are other poeple in CA that play brawl! I'm not alone, yay!!!! Starts crying out of happiness.

0_______________________________o

 

[da K.I.D.]

But that doesnt make any sense lol.

basically I felt like i only won because I tried so much harder.

And since I knew the matchup so well, every time I got a hit off on him, I could have told him what he could have done to beat me as we were playing.

basically that you can beat the person playing MK, but you cant beat the actual character, because he has and answer or an out to every conceivable situation and you have to be leagues ahead of the other guy in either skills or mindgames to beat the most generic MK crap.

 

[Master Raven]

wut? CA has one of the biggest Smash scenes >_>

 

[ssbbFICTION]

basically I felt like i only won because I tried so much harder.

And since I knew the matchup so well, every time I got a hit off on him, I could have told him what he could have done to beat me as we were playing.

basically that you can beat the person playing MK, but you cant beat the actual character, because he has and answer or an out to every conceivable situation and you have to be leagues ahead of the other guy in either skills or mindgames to beat the most generic MK crap.

So what you are saying is that you are miles better than any MK you can beat?

 

[da K.I.D.]

So what you are saying is that you are miles better than any MK you can beat?

In a way, yes I feel that you have to be way ahead in terms of prediction to win a match with him. But I dont think that the guy I was playing was bad, i just kinda caught "the glow" while i was playing him

luckily a lot of MKs make it obscenely obvious what they are going to do before they do it. But they only do that because they dont care if you can see it coming, because theres so little you can do about it anyway.

Example, played a really good friend of mine that mains random, he MK one round, and every single time I was above him, hed try to shuttle loop me.

I was like why do you keep SLing if you know its not gonna work?
he said, its not punishable so why does it matter.

i knew he was going to do it, but i couldnt do anything but avoid taking damage/a gimp, so why does he even have to bother masking his actions.

stuff like that you know?

 

[ssbbFICTION]

In a way, yes I feel that you have to be way ahead in terms of prediction to win a match with him. But I dont think that the guy I was playing was bad, i just kinda caught "the glow" while i was playing him

luckily a lot of MKs make it obscenely obvious what they are going to do before they do it. But they only do that because they dont care if you can see it coming, because theres so little you can do about it anyway.

Example, played a really good friend of mine that mains random, he MK one round, and every single time I was above him, hed try to shuttle loop me.

I was like why do you keep SLing if you know its not gonna work?
he said, its not punishable so why does it matter.

i knew he was going to do it, but i couldnt do anything but avoid taking damage/a gimp, so why does he even have to bother masking his actions.

stuff like that you know?

Playing a low/mid tier character is not an excuse for banning a better one.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Playing a low/mid tier character is not an excuse for banning a better one.

so you think that you playing a better character means he cant do the same ******** stuff to you?


That might be where our disconnect is.