WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[The Cunning Weasel]

I guess looking at the results from Apex, Evo and Genesis will really give people something to discuss more in depth regarding the banning of MK. Arguably, MK's metagame is very well developed. And doesn't he possess one of the easiest learning curves of the whole cast in Brawl?

 

[Sky`]

welcome to texas

The land where everybody takes things the wrong way, and selectively reads certain OPs?

xD

 

[Ayaz18]

oh lol

I was just doing some H/K and came back here and read what was misinterpreted lol


I'm not calling the guy who got 49th the best ROB lol, i'm just saying that the best placing ROB in this paticular tournament placed 49th............so if HugS developed ROB so much, how come there is so little ROB rep and placings...

Again, I only mean about THIS tournament.

 

[Chaco]

That was sort of downing Texas.

Still, Im interested in the results of Genesis.

 

[Xyro77]

The land where everybody takes things the wrong way, and selectively reads certain OPs?

xD

all im saying was that the OP originally made houston/tx look like we banned meta because of world hobo. and the ISP thing some how got brought up for no **** reason.


im not mad. in fact none of us tx guys are mad. we just wanted it to be clear we DO NOT have meta banned. we are just banning him for hobo16. we did it at hobo 12 and it was epic

 

[Praxis]

oh lol

I was just doing some H/K and came back here and read what was misinterpreted lol


I'm not calling the guy who got 49th the best ROB lol, i'm just saying that the best placing ROB in this paticular tournament placed 49th............so if HugS developed ROB so much, how come there is so little ROB rep and placings...

Again, I only mean about THIS tournament.

Because HugS being good should have absolutely no effect on some random ROB in Texas that has likely never spoken to him or learned anything from him at all, and most of the other ROB players switched to MK because he 70:30'd them and they couldn't counterpick anyone better than MK himself, so there weren't any ROB's at the tournament to "rep" him?

>_>

Seriously, it's not that complicated.

 

[Xyro77]

The WHOBO results are merely being used as an evidence of a problem that was brought out months ago and is unlikely to go away soon.

Metaknight, having no bad matchups, and arguably no even matchups as well (Snake and Wario are the only ones that can be argued, and Wario can't deal with planking at all and has bad stages and Snake is likely in MK's favor- judging from M2K vs Ally and my discussions with Ally on the topic, as well as the fact that the top MK's outplace the top Snakes), cannot be counterpicked, and is, in fact, his own worst matchup.

Play a character with a poor matchup on Metaknight? On any other character, the answer is to counterpick. Develop a set of secondaries to deal with your bad matchups. With Metaknight in the picture, this becomes bleak. You can simply get good at the matchup, but you can't count on being able to beat the top Metaknights in the country that know your character's matchup as well as you know theirs.

Best solution? Switch to MK, or second MK. It removes all of your bad matchups, including MK himself.

Is it any coincidence that the vast majority of the top players main or second MK? FICTION CP's MK on some matchups. DEHF takes MK on DSF at times. Then, of course, there's DSF himself, as Snake/MK.

We're going to keep seeing more and more MKs, as players realize that by switching from their mains to MK, they lose their bad matchups and see an improved performance in tournament results. Players with characters with bad MK matchups almost have no choice but to switch to MK- look at the dwindling numbers of ROB players.


MK is a cancer. He vastly overcentralizes the metagame by removing a counterpick system, and it's better for the metagame to remove him.




I've considered this heavily, actually, and I don't believe it to be a problem. With MK banned, a counterpick system develops, as a lot of the other top characters that have reasonable matchups on MK are lucky enough to have counters that don't make it past MK.

Falco has disadvantaged matchups to Pikachu (buffered 90% CG anyone?), Ice Climbers (see FICTION vs DEHF), Kirby, and Lucario at the very least. Interestingly, all of these characters are vastly underrepresented in the tournament scene.

Snake? Dedede, Olimar (forces him to approach), Pikachu (buffered CG pushes this over from even), Wario, ROB, and Falco all can be argued to have an advantage, and others may go even (ZSS? DK? Diddy?).


Dedede? Olimar, Falco, Pikachu (again the new buffered CG), and Ice Climbers.

Game & Watch? Snake, Marth, Diddy.


All of the top characters have counters! Interestingly, heavily underused characters like Pikachu, Kirby, and ICs would do very well in this environment, functioning as the counters for some heavily used characters. A counterpick system means players would play more characters and further develop the metagame, and we'd have a thriving, varied metagame.




And DEHF's lost to FICTION's.

some one needs to respond to this.
there are some good points here.

 

[bobson]

Falco has disadvantaged matchups to Pikachu (buffered 90% CG anyone?), Ice Climbers (see FICTION vs DEHF), Kirby, and Lucario at the very least. Interestingly, all of these characters are vastly underrepresented in the tournament scene.

Game&Watch defeats Falco pretty handily from my experience. Just imagine Falco without his laser or chaingrab game.

 

[Suspect]

The land where everybody takes things the wrong way, and selectively reads certain OPs?

xD

yes exactly lol

 

[Eddie G]

I'll respond to it Xyro.

Praxis, I love you for making that post. Over-centralization of MK in the long run if he's not axed. I can feel it too. Signs are already presenting themselves.

 

[slikvik]

falco isn't that good

 

[Fliphopper]

Hobo 12 was epic. Everybody actually enjoyed the grand finals.

 

[Trela]

Hobo 12 was epic. Everybody actually enjoyed the grand finals.

I'm pretty sure you did lol.

 

[CY]

i think experimenting with banned MK tournaments are healthy for the scene. we get to see diversity among other things. this is why TX is amazing, we aren't scared to experiment. :o

i personally went to HOBO 12 and had an amazing time. i also beat someone in tournament at HOBO 12, who i lost to at HOBO 14. why? because he CP'd MK :D it was pretty cool. i won first round against his main, then he switched to MK but still barely won, meh. not saying i'm for the MK ban, but picking MK definetly gives you the edge if you have a good one.

 

[Ripple]

when 1 game of brawl+ played by people who have never played before has more people watching it than the grand finals of a tournament with MK dittos, there is a massive problem


^this was not at whobo, but it has happened

 

[Furbs]

hobo12 ftw!!

also i can GARUNTEE! and am willing to put money down that metaknight players will win genesis and apex

 

[Sethlon]

Game&Watch defeats Falco pretty handily from my experience. Just imagine Falco without his laser or chaingrab game.

What? Falco can still chain grab G&W, and getting the 40% + dair + possible tech chase is a lot of damage for a light character like G&W to take. Bucket is easy to get around, just empty short hop/shoot one laser at a time, and if G&W buckets its a free instant aerial overB + uair/airdodge bait.
/rant

 

[Hylian]

What? Falco can still chain grab G&W, and getting the 40% + dair + possible tech chase is a lot of damage for a light character like G&W to take. Bucket is easy to get around, just empty short hop/shoot one laser at a time, and if G&W buckets its a free instant aerial overB + uair/airdodge bait.
/rant

Yeah, GW vs Falco is a pretty even match-up. MAYBE a very slight advantage for GW. It's hard to understand if you don't have a lot of experience in it though.


Oh, and like PhantomX said, the hobo series is not banning mk, we just like to have a MK banned tournament every now and then for fun.

 

[LouBega]

What? Falco can still chain grab G&W, and getting the 40% + dair + possible tech chase is a lot of damage for a light character like G&W to take. Bucket is easy to get around, just empty short hop/shoot one laser at a time, and if G&W buckets its a free instant aerial overB + uair/airdodge bait.
/rant

yeah. plus if g&w gets a full bucket it's not very strong and you lose bucket breaking until you use it.

 

[Praxis]

What? Falco can still chain grab G&W, and getting the 40% + dair + possible tech chase is a lot of damage for a light character like G&W to take. Bucket is easy to get around, just empty short hop/shoot one laser at a time, and if G&W buckets its a free instant aerial overB + uair/airdodge bait.
/rant

G&W's bucket and crouch let him avoid lasercamping. Falco is forced to approach, and G&W's dtilt ***** him.

In a defensive game like Brawl, the approacher is at a disadvantage.

Not saying it's a strong counter, but it's another disadvantaged matchup to the ones I listed. Falco =/= MK.

 

[Hylian]

G&W's bucket and crouch let him avoid lasercamping. Falco is forced to approach, and G&W's dtilt ***** him.

In a defensive game like Brawl, the approacher is at a disadvantage.

Not saying it's a strong counter, but it's another disadvantaged matchup to the ones I listed. Falco =/= MK.

Oh the ignorance is almost painful.

 

[GreyFox86]

Hobo 12 was epic. Everybody actually enjoyed the grand finals.

And everyone will enjoy this one coming.

What I don't understand is why was this brought up in the first place.
The whole banning MK cause of WHOBO schtick I mean.

We Texans play with variety of characters. Like Xyro said, Only tourney I've heard was gonna be MK banned was HOBO 12, and a few selected tourneys from San Antonio.

Doing this doesn't mean Tx is scared of MK cause that's far far from the actual truth. It's just nice to see how things turn out when MK isn't there.

 

[bobson]

What? Falco can still chain grab G&W, and getting the 40% + dair + possible tech chase is a lot of damage for a light character like G&W to take. Bucket is easy to get around, just empty short hop/shoot one laser at a time, and if G&W buckets its a free instant aerial overB + uair/airdodge bait.
/rant

What the hell, Falco can chaingrab Game & Watch? I've broken out of it against every single Falco I've faced when I used G&W, even when they had chaingrabbed my other characters fine.
Ignore me, then.

Although I'd say taking two uairs isn't much in exchange for an instant kill attack and ever-present mindgame.

 

[Suspect]

We Texans play with variety of characters.

naw, just us in san antonio really

 

[RT]

Texas just likes having character variety. Look at our top players...only four or so use Meta, everyone else use a variety of low-high tier characters. Houston itself practically has no good Meta Knights, because no one is really interested in picking him up or has dropped him as a main.

Hobo 16 will be fun. Everyone WILL have more fun without Meta Knight shenanigans.

 

[Praxis]

Oh the ignorance is almost painful.

Can you at least just correct me? I didn't say anything particularly out there. Just that G&W can crouch the lasers and force Falco to approach, and slight disadvantage to Falco.


I was addressing the guy who thought Falco would take MK's place with no bad matchups >_> Not saying that G&W significantly counters Falco.

I won't argue it, but I'd prefer you enlighten me instead of just saying I'm wrong.

 

[blackfox51]

Texas just likes having character variety. Look at our top players...only four or so use Meta, everyone else use a variety of low-high tier characters. Houston itself practically has no good Meta Knights, because no one is really interested in picking him up.

Hobo 16 will be fun. Everyone WILL have more fun without Meta Knight shenanigans.

I know I will, as much as I'd like to get better against MK, facing a more diverse cast in Brawl is well worth it

There's almost no character that isn't mained by someone in TX, even Falcon is =D

 

[Eddie G]

Either way, Falco and any of the other top characters (excluding MK) all have suitable options/counters to be used against them, be it stage or character. MK simply nullifies any of that.

Ok, so some of MK's matchups are even which by the book isn't so bad, but he still has no bad matchups. The fact that some stages can only benefit MK while none can limit him only adds to the problem. People who want to win money will eventually use their common sense and will ultimately and inevitably switch to MK to have a chance.

The fact that MK is an overall suitable choice for counterpicking will leave the big question of "why pick X or Y who may not have to worry so much about the matchup but possibly a stage induced limitation, when I can just pick MK who doesn't really have to worry about either issue?" in a lot of players' minds.

Oh yeah, and this is not meant to dive deeper into the planking issue, but MK is the best character to plank with as well. I mean, come on...let's add fuel to the problematic fire why don't we?

 

[Xyro77]

nvm praxis asked

 

[GreyFox86]

Texas just likes having character variety. Look at our top players...only four or so use Meta, everyone else use a variety of low-high tier characters. Houston itself practically has no good Meta Knights, because no one is really interested in picking him up or has dropped him as a main.

Hobo 16 will be fun. Everyone WILL have more fun without Meta Knight shenanigans.

QFT. While Houston has about 4 MK's, San Antonio only has about 2. San Angelo with 1 and Dallas/El Paso/The Valley with no more than 1 from what I last recall...Not sure if its accurate or not. Then everyone else to their own.

 

[Suspect]

Wrong about the dallas part

come on now grey. :/

 

[takeurlife2]

mk is being banned at the next hobo because we made a pact a while ago to have off and on tourneys. Meta banned, meta not banned, meta banned.... etc.

So far, we have had 4 events in a row of MK being unbanned. This one is only fair if we plan to keep our word.

In other words, the WHOBO results arent influencing our decision for this HOBO.

 

[Hylian]

What the hell, Falco can chaingrab Game & Watch? I've broken out of it against every single Falco I've faced when I used G&W, even when they had chaingrabbed my other characters fine.
Ignore me, then.

Although I'd say taking two uairs isn't much in exchange for an instant kill attack and ever-present mindgame.

Ugh. Please just stop lol. Falco can CG GW to 35% and dair. If you are playing a falco and they cannot chaingrab you, then they don't know how to play falco. After that Falco can techchase GW really easily considering his rolling and get-up animations are so horrible.

GW's bucket filled with Falcos lasers does 18% and doesn't kill till past 80%. Hardly an "Instant kill move". Having a full bucket also means you can't bucket brake.

What's ignorant about it? At least correct it. I didn't say anything particularly out there. Just that G&W can crouch the lasers and force Falco to approach, and slight disadvantage to Falco.

I've seen stuff Falco can do to G&W. He can still CG him, he can still FIGHT him. But I think G&W is well equipped to handle it.

I was addressing the guy who thought Falco would take MK's place with no bad matchups >_>

It's just you are saying the same things that everyone else who doesn't play falco or GW have been saying :/. Oh wow, GW can crouch. He still has to get a lead. Which means avoiding being chaingrabbed. One of falcos biggest problems in match-ups is the fact that it's hard to get kills with him. Falco can kill GW very easily compared to a lot of other tournament characters. He can punish GW's aireals OOS, he can EASILY beat a GW just sitting there by staying outside dtilt range and just doing a silent laser to phantasm, considering if you dtilt the laser will hit you. He can also just laser to shine, or walk up, ps the dtilt, ftilt or jab OOS....falco has TONS of options vs a crouching GW that people ignore for some reason.

Falco would probably beat GW actually if it wasn't for GW's great edgeguarding game.

 

[Praxis]

Oh yeah, and this is not meant to dive deeper into the planking issue, but MK is the best character to plank with as well. I mean, come on...let's add fuel to the problematic fire why don't we?

Not to mention that you almost have to ban planking if you want MK legal, because MK can simply plank some of his evenish matchups and make it into a significantly advantaged matchup. For example, Wario vs MK is near even on neutral stages if planking is banned...if the MK planks, significant favor to MK.

You almost have to ban planking to give Wario a chance at fighting him. Don't, and he genuinely doesn't even really have an arguable worst matchup! We're getting to the point where other parts of the game are being banned for this character (Infinite Dimensional Cape, now planking is being discussed).

It's just you are saying the same things that everyone else who doesn't play falco or GW have been saying :/. Oh wow, GW can crouch. He still has to get a lead. Which means avoiding being chaingrabbed. One of falcos biggest problems in match-ups is the fact that it's hard to get kills with him. Falco can kill GW very easily compared to a lot of other tournament characters. He can punish GW's aireals OOS, he can EASILY beat a GW just sitting there by staying outside dtilt range and just doing a silent laser to phantasm, considering if you dtilt the laser will hit you. He can also just laser to shine, or walk up, ps the dtilt, ftilt or jab OOS....falco has TONS of options vs a crouching GW that people ignore for some reason.

Falco would probably beat GW actually if it wasn't for GW's great edgeguarding game.

Thanks for explaining. I'll accept you have a lot more experience on this than I do and are right on that

 

[Hylian]

Not to mention that you almost have to ban planking if you want MK legal, because MK can simply plank some of his evenish matchups and make it into a significantly advantaged matchup. For example, Wario vs MK is near even on neutral stages if planking is banned...if the MK planks, significant favor to MK.

You almost have to ban planking to give Wario a chance at fighting him. Don't, and he genuinely doesn't even really have an arguable worst matchup! We're getting to the point where other parts of the game are being banned for this character (Infinite Dimensional Cape, now planking is being discussed).




Thanks for explaining. I'll accept you have a lot more experience on this than I do and are right on that

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I tend to jump on misconceptions lol.

 

[cutter]

Just chiming in on G&W/Falco, it's 55:45 overall in favor of G&W. Hardly a counter; bad Falco players just don't know how to play against G&W, they get *****, and so they think Falco gets obliterated by G&W.

G&W's edgeguarding helps a lot to counterbalance Falco's gay chaingrab.

That being said, I cannot wait to see the results from Apex, Genesis, and Evo

 

[Hylian]

Just chiming in on G&W/Falco, it's 55:45 overall in favor of G&W. Hardly a counter; bad Falco players just don't know how to play against G&W, they get *****, and so they think Falco gets obliterated by G&W.

G&W's edgeguarding helps a lot to counterbalance Falco's gay chaingrab.

That being said, I cannot wait to see the results from Apex, Genesis, and Evo

Let's give some predictions:

Apex:

1st: NJ
2nd: Canada
3rd: TX

Genesis:

1st: Texas
2nd: NJ
3rd: Cali/Canada

Evo:

Lol.


.

 

[T0MMY]

Finally, and I feel this bears repeating, we are attacking one character and we fail to shed a helping hand to the characters below MK. My example that I'd like to offer is a story of HugS. HugS played Samus in Melee, and as everybody knows, is absolutely amazing. He didn't pick up brawl immediately, where as I picked it up the day it came out. HugS decided to play Brawl seriously, and therefore decided to pick up ROB. My Peach, has beaten some of the best ROBs in the United States, in money matches, and in tournament.
ShadowROB
Hitori
t0mmy

A couple corrections: HugS actually played Brawl before you did, I played with him at the E for All pre-release event/impromptu tourney.
Also, you beat me due to "forfeit". You can MM me any time you want ^___^

In conclusion, This tournament's results were biased and inconclusive. It's not fair to base such a rash judgment on one tournament like this.

I Agree.

Play a character with a poor matchup on Metaknight? On any other character, the answer is to counterpick.

Nah, at NorCal's Smashapalooza the two players that took out the top Meta Knights there were me & Hitori both R.O.B. only players.
I don't counterpick with any other character, and I certainly don't john enough to want a ban. This is may be a personal opinion, but I'm backing it up with tournament results as well. If it's a bad matchup for R.O.B. and I don't find it very difficult, then I don't see why anyone else should want a ban either. Get to work getting better is my advice.

 

[Praxis]

Has no one tried to reply to my argument yet? :/
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7175833&postcount=28

And np Hylian, thanks ^_^

 

[Xyro77]

Let's give some predictions:

Apex:

1st: NJ
2nd: Canada
3rd: TX

Genesis:

1st: Texas
2nd: NJ
3rd: Cali/Canada

Evo:

Lol.


.

dojo beating m2k at gen? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!