WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[Suspect]

almost being forced to playing a better one is tho.

 

[JesiahTEG]

But fox you could atleast counterpick stages against. There are very few foxes who could/can beat my roy on FD.

Wtf? Fox ***** on like every counterpick.

 

[Nintendevil]

One thing that I do find interesting is that Metaknight is still proving to be a strong character choice despite how flooded the tournaments are with him. If anything, this says to me that he's an extremely strong character more than anything. People are getting a LOT of experience with the Metaknight match-up, and they are STILL having problems. If there were a broad spectrum of counters to Metaknight, one could safely say we would have started finding them by now.

This is the point I have made and that Pro MKers have failed to meet. Over the last 6 months squat has happened. If anything it's gotten worse. And the reason I foresaw this was because brawl is a piece of ****.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

so you think that you playing a better character means he cant do the same ******** stuff to you?


That might be where our disconnect is.

Wario can dair the aerial shuttle loop. ice climbers can dair it. snake can grenade it. the other high tiers can do something i'm sure. In the words of HugS "thats how you beat low tiers, you play really gay and they cant do anything about it." its true. ITs harder for metaknight to beat characters as they go up the tier list.

 

[Sky`]

Wtf? Fox ***** on like every counterpick.

YOU!

*Initiates Pokemon battle*

Sky used Protect!
JesiahTEG Spams Overheat!
Sky Protected Himself!

Sky used Nasty Plot!
JesiahTEG Spammed another Overheat!
It's not very effective...

Sky used Hydro Pump.
It's Super Effective!
Foe JesiahTEG Fainted!
Sky wins!

"I guess you're just amazing..." - JesiahTEG.


@Da Kid. Prediction =/= beating a character that can exploit your disadvantages so hard especially when you MAIN one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[Blad01]

The exemple is pretty bad, because we have learned to counter every singles move MK has... Except Full Hop DOuble Aerials and Tornado, unpunishable for most characters...

 

[Sky`]

The exemple is pretty bad, because we have learned to counter every singles move MK has... Except Full Hop DOuble Aerials and Tornado, unpunishable for most characters...

You play.

Falco.

No johns Imo.

 

[Nic64]

Over the last 6 months squat has happened. If anything it's gotten worse.

If you've followed ankoku's tournament rankings list MK has actually lost dominance over the past 6 months, him and snake put together have a ranking like 6% higher than MK used to have just on his own. In terms of more people picking up MK maybe it's gotten worse, but considering what he's winning, no it hasn't.

 

[brinboy789]

The exemple is pretty bad, because we have learned to counter every singles move MK has... Except Full Hop DOuble Aerials and Tornado, unpunishable for most characters...

theres an anti-tornado list...and most chars have a reliable answer to the nado

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wario can dair the aerial shuttle loop. ice climbers can dair it. snake can grenade it. the other high tiers can do something i'm sure. In the words of HugS "thats how you beat low tiers, you play really gay and they cant do anything about it." its true. ITs harder for metaknight to beat characters as they go up the tier list.

does wario beat it entirely? or does it just trade?

ice climber dair = madd lag for MK to punish.

snake take the SL damage and the grenade damage, which is sometimes worth it and sometimes not.

alot of the time, the move whoever uses to beat MK, doesnt kill him, so they have to risk either getting outprioritised or trading hits and getting gimped anyways.

and even if you do beat it consistently, thats when the MK does something different. they can vary the timing to punish your reaction to something they might not have even done. Like how many times has M2K gimped a snake by falling underneath them offstage with the guy in perfect SL range for a full second or more to bait a reaction. waits for them to do something than gimps them and drills back to the stage.

MK just has too many OP options at his disposal

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres an anti-tornado list...and most chars have a reliable answer to the nado

that is completely dependant on your definition of the two resized words in that sentance

 

[Sky`]

GaW has an answer. to the tornado.
Peach has some answers.

I think that's enough. <3

 

[Master Raven]

MK's tornado is VERY punishable for most good characters.

 

[BentoBox]

The cool kids have all hopped on the Wario bandwagon already, whatchagaizwaitingonfor?

 

[Nintendevil]

Ummm no. Either it takes perfect timing AND placement, or they have to wait for it to be over. Also if your "answer" misses, you get sucked right in.

BTW for most characters, if the shield is not full, or has even been poked ONCE, aiming it up wont stop the nado.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Personally, I think MK masks some characters that are even more painful to fight by having an answer to all their attacks. Of course, that is a matter or opinion, but I find GW, Olimar, and IC's are simply never fun matches, reguardless of who wins.

 

[BentoBox]

Learn to embrace the gay.

 

[Sky`]

Learn to embrace the gay.

I'll embrace you. =D

 

[da K.I.D.]

@Da Kid. Prediction =/= beating a character that can exploit your disadvantages so hard especially when you MAIN one of the worst characters in the game.

prediction =/= beating a character is exactly the point i was trying to make. the character is unbeatable, its just that the imperfect people that play are.

2. I may main sonic, but I also play Fox, Wolf, D3, Lucario, Pit, Kirby, toon link, and MK himself. Half of those characters I picked up SPECIFICALLY to play against MK, only to find out that the 3 characters I started off with, sonic, Lucario, and D3, imo all have similar matchups with MK. so dont assume the character(s) i play just because you know my main.

3. Sonic is Mid Tier, you shouldnt say that hes bottom tier, if you have nobody really good with the character in your area to base that assumption on

 

[The Halloween Captain]

prediction =/= beating a character is exactly the point i was trying to make. the character is unbeatable, its just that the imperfect people that play are.

2. I may main sonic, but I also play Fox, Wolf, D3, Lucario, Pit, Kirby, toon link, and MK himself. Half of those characters I picked up SPECIFICALLY to play against MK, only to find out that the 3 characters I started off with, sonic, Lucario, and D3, imo all have similar matchups with MK. so dont assume the character(s) i play just because you know my main.

3. Sonic is Mid Tier, you shouldnt say that hes bottom tier, if you have nobody really good with the character in your area to base that assumption on

Have you tried using jigglypuff?

I found that she has the magical ability of making everyone else bad at smash in comparison. It's because she has a lot more horizontal maneuverability than everyone else, and can dodge and punish just about anything by baiting attacks. Also, megapunch pownz all.

I can't always beat a level nine computer with her, but people are not level nine computers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats just matchup inexperience, as soon at you take the time to learn the match, its not hard, especially since she dies in like 6 hits

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

Against MK, don't jump into the ****. The whorenado is gay and his sword has ridikalus range. I think Snake is the best CP for MK but I think the Warios have something to say about that.

 

[Sky`]

prediction =/= beating a character is exactly the point i was trying to make. the character is unbeatable, its just that the imperfect people that play are.

2. I may main sonic, but I also play Fox, Wolf, D3, Lucario, Pit, Kirby, toon link, and MK himself. Half of those characters I picked up SPECIFICALLY to play against MK, only to find out that the 3 characters I started off with, sonic, Lucario, and D3, imo all have similar matchups with MK. so dont assume the character(s) i play just because you know my main.

3. Sonic is Mid Tier, you shouldnt say that hes bottom tier, if you have nobody really good with the character in your area to base that assumption on

So you're saying that MK is unbeatable?

And I do.
NoR4U is the best Sonic in california.
I can safely say, he's not in Mid tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So you're saying that MK is unbeatable?

And I do.
NoR4U is the best Sonic in california.
I can safely say, he's not in Mid tier.

There are two issues with that statement

The first being

Best of California.
Thats it, best of California, not nationally.

Even then you would have to say who he is the best of, is the level of Sonic users there low? If so, its not hard to be the best sonic of that area if all the other sonic users suck.

One more thing, your own personal experiences is flawed in the fact that it is the result of inductive reasoning.

@fiction: Stop with those silly postings. Really.
You need to place well so you can make an argument? WTF?
It makes no sense for kid to feel that MK is truly ban worthy now that he is improved?
No erally how does it not make sense?
Let alone you mentioning his main (which btw sonic can Dair Mk exchange blows, and kill MK because of the poor knckback after the initial frames of the SL, I did it to master_raven we went O_o)

Just add more to your argument.

Tornado debate: If Mk uses the tornado intelligently it is hard to counter. That is a fact. Anything that is used in a stupid manner can be countered. When it is used intelligently, that is not so easy. So no more debating it.

As for the actual tpopic.

WHOBO does make the MK issue seem more important than before.
For one, he takes up the majority of the placements.
Not only that, but even when he is used as a mere secondary, it gives the idea that he is necessary in order to win.
As in, o ahead and play your main but if you want to win you MUST use MK.
This seems even more bothersome when you look at people like DSf who used Lucario/Wario , characters who are very high in the tierlist and by all means should have a good chance of winning.

The problem with looking at just these results was mentioned earlier.
The majority o the people there were MK users who are extremely skilled.
There were not many non MK users of similar skill at WHOBO so it wasn't possible for them to be challenged to a great degree.

So its best to just look at the tournament results as they are, results.
For now take them in as a piece of data and once all the major tournaments have finished for the year, then the issue should be brought up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So you're saying that MK is unbeatable?

And I do.
NoR4U is the best Sonic in california.
I can safely say, he's not in Mid tier.

i believe the character is unbeatable, but the people holding the controller are not unbeatable.

I know exactly who NoR4U is and knew about him prior to me making the statement that theres nobody in your area that you can use to determine how good sonic is

Saying sonic is low tier, is like saying, Peach is high tier...
Its just wrong

 

[Sky`]

So you're saying that MK is unbeatable?

And I do.
NoR4U is the best Sonic in california.
I can safely say, he's not in Mid tier.

There are two issues with that statement

The first being

Best of California.
Thats it, best of California, not nationally.

Even then you would have to say who he is the best of, is the level of Sonic users there low? If so, its not hard to be the best sonic of that area if all the other sonic users suck.

One more thing, your own personal experiences is flawed in the fact that it is the result of inductive reasoning.

There are two issues with whatever you said.

First being that you did not read DAkids's post. He said that I had nothing to base my assumption on. And I proved that I did. And it remains an Assumption. The problem I addressed directly countered and contradicted his claim in that respect. You however are now implementing a new argument of 'how good is he for you to gather that much information from'? That is an argument that will troll on for hours, and I've no interest getting into it with you.

Second. Isn't that all we have? Personal experiences? What else could we gather? What other people say? Hearsay isn't reliable, gotta do it yourself.

@DA Kid: MK is not unbeatable. The base advantages he has aren't that different from the base advantages that Falco has, it's just that the community was geared to play the fastest, easiest, most efficient character, and they furthered the metagame of MK, which in this case means exploiting the weaknesses of other characters with MK. I still think that Falco or Wario is just as good as MK. Fiction is in the process of proving the latter as we speak.

And I happen to think that Peach is a bad character.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

thats just matchup inexperience, as soon at you take the time to learn the match, its not hard, especially since she dies in like 6 hits

I agree. I love taking full advantage of matchup inexperience. In fact, in friendlies I often use a character until I lose a match, and then switch to screw up all the practice the opponent had against my first character, often picking a radically different character for him to respond to (such as switching between Jiggs and Marth in melee).

If you really want to beat MK without using MK though, then you'll need a character that is good against MK. People will often pick MK because he's fun to use, and he doesn't have bad matchups. Thus, the character you pick will either be dull to use, have some very bad matchups, or both. However, most people pick MK as a second even if they do main such a character, because MK will most likely cover your MK slight-counter's weaknesses.

The easiest way to win is to take advantage of every difficiency of your opponent as a player. If he has trouble against a particular character, use it. If he has trouble adjusting to you switching characters, use that. If he walks into charged smashes, use that. And if he's the best player in the world, then there may not be an easiest way to win, but you might want to at least note what he can be hit with.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I agree. I love taking full advantage of matchup inexperience. In fact, in friendlies I often use a character until I lose a match, and then switch to screw up all the practice the opponent had against my first character, often picking a radically different character for him to respond to (such as switching between Jiggs and Marth in melee).

If you really want to beat MK without using MK though, then you'll need a character that is good against MK. People will often pick MK because he's fun to use, and he doesn't have bad matchups. Thus, the character you pick will either be dull to use, have some very bad matchups, or both. However, most people pick MK as a second even if they do main such a character, because MK will most likely cover your MK slight-counter's weaknesses.

The easiest way to win is to take advantage of every difficiency of your opponent as a player. If he has trouble against a particular character, use it. If he has trouble adjusting to you switching characters, use that. If he walks into charged smashes, use that. And if he's the best player in the world, then there may not be an easiest way to win, but you might want to at least note what he can be hit with.

tl'dr, learn to beat the player because you cant beat teh character

 

[ShadowLink84]

There are two issues with whatever you said.

Witticism will not get you anywhere.

First being that you did not read DAkids's post.

Assumption is assumption. I read his post.

He said that I had nothing to base my assumption on.
And I proved that I did. And it remains an Assumption.

So, you try to argue against his idea that your area does not have a highly skilled sonic, by bringing up a Sonic user who is not as skilled as say, Malcolm?
Obviously his point was meant to point out how your region lacks high leveled Sonics to justify your claim. And even then you would still have to acknowledge the fact that Sonic's placements indicate a mid tier character.

The problem I addressed directly countered and contradicted his claim in that respect.

Read his last post.
he was referring to high level Sonic users, not that you do not have a reputable Sonic user.
big difference.

stuff

Whatever.

Second. Isn't that all we have? Personal experiences? What else could we gather? What other people say? Hearsay isn't reliable, gotta do it yourself.

Yes but you forget that the personal experiences that we have are based off of the interpretation of fact.

For example m2k once believed MK's Dtilt was shorter than Snake's Ftilt due to his experience.
This was false because MK's Dtilt is actually longer.
However,his interpretation lead him to believe otherwise.
This does not change the fact that Mk's Dtilt was longer than Snake's Ftilt.
There is a right answer.

Now you are basing it off of your OWN experience.
Your statement implies yourself, singular, your own experience. not a collective experience in which others would agree and therefore, imply that your statement is true.

Now by no means is the collective experience of the community correct, it is still possible to be wrong, however, the more people that agree the greater the closer you are to being to the correct answer.
So even if you are wrong you are not as wrong as you would have been.

 

[-Linko-]

Right now I don't want him banned but I dunno if this turns into super metaknight bros.brawl I may change my mind ._.

Where have you been? It already has.

In Spain, where MetaKnight is kinda soft-banned. (No jokes about accent, please... ¬¬ )

And how's the metagame here? Well, our Top 3 includes an Olimar and a Pika. It would more or less prove that some of the pro-ban arguments are indeed true. And there aren't so many Snakes around. We have a really varied metagame, at least in terms of characters. The most popular ones are Falco, Dedede and Diddy.

Well, just compare our last national tourney results with Whobo: (it was a few days before Whobo)

Singles
1: Marcbri (Falco)
2: Greward (Olimar)
3: Miquel (Pika)
4: Neji (Diddy)
5: Veyron (DDD)
5: El_Bardo (DDD)
7: Dash (Samus. Yes, the armored one, not Zamus)
7: Raw! (Snake)

Doubles:
1: North Fatality: La verdadera mierda que mato a Hitler/The real **** that killed Hitler (Raw! + Rydle) (Snake+Ike)
2: Pikamins (Greward + Miquel) (Olimar+Pika)
3: Veyron + Marc (DDD+Falco)
4: Smash Brothers (El_Bardo + Robo_Luigi) (DDD+ROB)
5: Bleachigos (Arkonid + Row12) (Pika+Toon Link)
5: Banana Fart Team (Neji + Nexoult) (Diddy+Wario. LoL Banana Fart)
7: Sham Sham Team (Edu + Shamouna) (Zelda/Sheik+Lucas O.O)
7: Joan + Veartex (Diddy+Gaymanwatch)

Ps: I'm only posting this as additional data to the topic. I'm not arguing that MK must be banned in order to make Ike, Samus or Lucas viable charcters. In fact, I'm somehow against Meta's ban, at least not until Genesis...

EDIT: LOLZ! I just saw that my sig is outdated. Well, enjoy the contradiction, I don't feel like changing it for a while.

 

[Mew2King]

ummmmmmmm i never said mks down tilt is shorter that is a lie

i said if you do snakes f tilt really fast then if you misspace mks down tilt even SLIGHTLY Then snakes f tilt will hit

ALSO, the 2nd hit of snakes f tilt has more range than metaknights ANYTHING, so you can just do two of them really fast to use the range of the 2nd one (which does a nice 13% too)

ally spams f tilt when mks are down tilting him (see him vs dm on smashville) so he can most likely get a retaliation right afterwords

I believe it goes like this (not 100% sure that snakes f tilt 2nd hit is more than his down tilt but im pretty sure)

Snakes F tilt 2nd hit > snakes down tilt > mks down tilt > mks f tilt > snakes f tilt first hit (barely has less range than mks f tilt and if mk misspaces it then snakes f tilt will hit at the same time as mks f tilt hits giving snake another FREE 20 damage from ANOTHER f tilt since MK is in stun)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People put way too much emphasis on match-ups when most characters still have so much untapped potential. How do you guys want to know that all match-up's are in MKs favour when only few characters have even started to develop? You can't even judge most match-up's when you don't know what most characters are capable of but you guys don't care about that anyways. MK is easy to use and ***** many characters on low levels so he's apparantly broken and needs to be banned before we even know how many characters can actually compete.
Half a year ago Pikachu was considered a mid-tier character. Now people discovered a chaingrab that's a 0-death vs Falco and 60% vs MK but people are still stubborn and claim that the situation hasn't changed? Way to be ignorant jerks. None of you know how such things will change the metagame of characters unless they are actually used. But instead of trying how it works you're just whining all day long about how you can't beat him.
But for some reasons I never hear people, who are actually good at this game *****ing about MK. I never heard Ally saying that MK should be banned. Instead he finds ways to beat him (except M2K lol) consistently by playing smart. I never hear Snakeee, Atomsk or DEHF complain either. Because they're good and don't waste their times whining.

You guys decided to be competitive so you gotta deal with certain facts: You can't win with any character you want and some characters are better than others. If a Samus player claims to be unable to beat MK with Samus he should just quit such a garbage character or live with the fact that his character sucks. Samus isn't viable anyways even if MK is banned and even if she can do "**** to Snake and R.O.B". She still gets pwned by D3 who ***** many characters a lot harder than MK does.
Good characters are good and can compete, with or without MK and despite the fact that MKs metagames is miles ahead of everybody else's and bad characters will stay bad even if MK is gone.

Edit: and lol @ the "he breaks the CP system" argument. Nobody gives a **** about the CP system. I can't CP Snake, Wario and Kirby ban them plz.

 

[Sky`]

Things.

ummmmmmmm i never said mks down tilt is shorter that is a lie

How can I take what you're saying for any logical merit, when you make up evidence to support such a biased claim? =D

 

[The Halloween Captain]

tl'dr, learn to beat the player because you cant beat teh character

Sorry, I like writing walls.

You're half right.

I'm saying learn to beat the player. Forget what character he's using.

Match 1: use the strongest counterpick to the character the opponent will most likely use. If unsure, use MK. If possible, try to learn what characters the player has trouble with, or guess a character the player probably has never played against. Try to prolong match

Match 2: If match 1 was won, use the same character again. If it was lost, use what you learned about how the player plays against the first character, and pick a character that can abuse and holes in your opponents defence. If you won your first match, try to prolong this one. If you lost your first match, don't waste any time.

Match 3: If match 2 lost but you're not eliminated, change character. Pick a character that can attack from angles that the opponent had trouble defending. Also, pick a character that can kill somewhat quickly to prevent your opponent from figuring out his movement patterns. Make sure your opponent is very unfamiliar with your play style. If match 2 won, continue to use your character unless you think he'll switch. Make sure to switch if your opponent will most likely switch to a character that strong-counters yours. Once again, using a character with a playstyle your opponent has a lot of difficulty with is more important than counterpicking your opponent's character.

 

[Flan]

I'll just put in my two cents as a person who doesn't play that competitively.

I think that Metaknight is a good character. By no means should he be banned. But, I also very much resent how many top players just chose to pick Metaknight because he is better than every other character. If there was a way to reduce the number of MK players without banning him, that would be awesome. Think of Fox in Melee. There are loads of Fox mains out there but because other players have found good ways to beat Fox mains, other characters are played just as much as Fox. But of course, everyone does have a Fox as a sidemain.

So, maybe if we can advance the anti-MK metagame, then less people will chose to main Metaknight.

 

[Marcbri]

@DA Kid: MK is not unbeatable. The base advantages he has aren't that different from the base advantages that Falco has, it's just that the community was geared to play the fastest, easiest, most efficient character, and they furthered the metagame of MK, which in this case means exploiting the weaknesses of other characters with MK. I still think that Falco or Wario is just as good as MK. Fiction is in the process of proving the latter as we speak.

wtf saying MK and Falco are at the same level, are you drunk or something?xD

let's see, first of all Falco has 2 main weakness that MK doesn't have, he's easy to gimp and has way too much problems killing heavy characters. in the other hand MK is impossible to gimp and can kill accidentally. now everyone will say, but MK is light-weight and dies early!!! well, so does Falco, who is just a bit heavier.

besides those weakness, Falco has hard match-ups: Pikachu, IC, Kirby, Marth... and goes even or almost even with lots of chars.
in the other hand MK has all match-ups in his favour.

next time you say falco is as good as MK, please at least post a reason ( though there aren't) of why

 

[ShadowLink84]

ummmmmmmm i never said mks down tilt is shorter that is a lie

Hmm I heard it from somewhere my mistake then.

i said if you do snakes f tilt really fast then if you misspace mks down tilt even SLIGHTLY Then snakes f tilt will hit

ALSO, the 2nd hit of snakes f tilt has more range than metaknights ANYTHING, so you can just do two of them really fast to use the range of the 2nd one (which does a nice 13% too)

Actually you can't.

The secnod part of Snakes Ftilt comes out on frame 18 or so.
The first hit of MK's Dtilt comes out on frame 3 and ends on frame 15.
So MK Dtilts. You shield and then use a two part Ftilt.
You get hit by another D tilt.
Why?

because the whole thing concerning shielding taks up 5 frames.

So if we count everything, for you to hit MK would take 23 frames.
He needs only 18 frames to hit you.

So even if you perfect shield it 9which takes only 1 frame), you woud still be using your attack on frame 19.

Of coure no one is perfect hence why people retaliate why Ally pulls of the Ftilt counter

ally spams f tilt when mks are down tilting him (see him vs dm on smashville) so he can most likely get a retaliation right afterwords/

The thing is that its not as if we are being frame perfect.
So lets say he performs the Ftilt ahead of time before MK an use Dtilt and MK is too far away to land the Dtilt, then by all means you will hit him.
However, if Snake is defensive and is working on retaliation, it will not hit him because MK has enough time to shield that second Ftilt or counter with another Dtilt or even an Ftilt.

my mistake earlir

 

[Mew2King]

who cares about speed i was talking about RANGE. I've fought people with snake that I know will do overspaced attacks (such as Marth SH Fair) and countered with a quick double hit F tilt so the 2nd hit would overpower their move and hit them.

btw this isn't super theory brawl if only things worked that way

also idk if this is common knowledge or not but snake can shield release into a jab -> f tilt between mks down tilts if it's close enough. I never did actual frame tests to a big extent like i did in melee but I know that much works. Shield grabbing at close range works too

 

[@HomE]

Edit: and lol @ the "he breaks the CP system" argument. Nobody gives a **** about the CP system. I can't CP Snake, Wario and Kirby ban them plz.

After reading all 17 pages of this argument, I had no intention of joining this clusterF*** but this is the stupidest thing I've read in awile.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

After reading all 17 pages of this argument, I had no intention of joining this clusterF*** but this is the stupidest thing I've read in awile.

If you were actually smart enough to read through the topic it should be clear that I'm talking about STAGE CPs.