The Unofficial Offical MLG Ruleset Discussion

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Name me a legal stage that isn't good for MK and you get a cookie.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9919448&postcount=315
Cuz it got newpaged. Awesome post. :V

Yoshi's Island.

 

[fkacyan]

@sandwhale: Stalling happens on other stages as well. 3 put of the 4 transformations on PS1 could lead to stalling, but nobody calls that banworthy.

@thio: That's a pretty flawed evaluation. ICs able to take advantage of many stage traits? There's one type of stage that the ICs are good on =/. So you'd rather fight Diddy and ICs on FD over Battlefield?

I'd rather fight Diddy on FD, and I'd rather fight ICs on BF or Lylat. That said, ICs are still a very formidable character even without chaingrabbing. Consider for a moment the implications of hitlag - they can bait you by allowing your attack to hit one of them to give them a window in which to smash you, or grab you, etc.

As for fighting Diddy or Falco, on FD, it's much easier because they don't have a ceiling stopping me from approaching them from above.

I would also like to add that in a region with most of these "anti-ICs' CPs banned, ICs don't really seem to thrive. We have a few people who alt them, but almost no mains. And yet, one of the best ICs mains lives in the Midwest, where a lot of these stages are legal.

Just food for thought.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Name me a legal stage that isn't good for MK and you get a cookie.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9919448&postcount=315
Cuz it got newpaged. Awesome post. :V

I meant that as an MK I would rather be on Delfino or Halberd than most stages, as they support his most broken aspect: extreme difficulty to punish.

And MKs worst stage is FD lol. By far.

 

[Xyless]

Name me a legal stage that isn't good for MK and you get a cookie.

Legal in MLG? The only stage that isn't good for MK: Green Greens.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Legal in MLG? The only stage that isn't good for MK: Green Greens.

Why wouldn't green greens be good for MK? Get shuttle looped?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I meant that as an MK I would rather be on Delfino or Halberd than most stages, as they support his most broken aspect: extreme difficulty to punish.

And MKs worst stage is FD lol. By far.

Not in some matchups. For example, any matchup where his best strategy is approach stuffing with upB OOS (G&W for example).

Legal in MLG? The only stage that isn't good for MK: Green Greens.

Bingo. And this is the ONLY one.

Also, I fail to see how Yoshi's is bad for MK.

 

[Judo777]

just saying RC is like 50/50 in being a legal stage too. btw if the transformations last 30 seconds and the regular is 50 thats almost twice as long on the neutral part so it more like 1/3 illegal.

RC btw would be illegal everywhere but the ship at the beginning because of no ledges and the walk off at the top.

 

[fkacyan]

Legal in MLG? The only stage that isn't good for MK: Green Greens.

Green Greens is glorious for MK. Dsmash kills early, ground shuttle loop kills early, he can dtilt lock you into the blocks (potentially blowing you up while he takes no damage - hurrah for disjoints!), and has a whopping total of eight edges for him to recover to.

Relatively speaking, I guess Snake beats him there, but overall he gains a lot on that stage. A lot more than he loses.

If MK had to have a 'worst stage' I guess FD would count, but he isn't really bad anywhere in the game.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Not in some matchups. For example, any matchup where his best strategy is approach stuffing with upB OOS (G&W for example).

GaWs learned to deal with this a long time ago. MK beats GaW because of Ftilt much more than SL.

And it is still overall his worst stage. I'm pretty sure GG is good for him.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Bingo. And this is the ONLY one.

Also, I fail to see how Yoshi's is bad for MK.

He can't glide under the stage and I think his planking isn't as effective.

 

[Judo777]

He can't glide under the stage and I think his planking isn't as effective.

But everyone has trouble recovering on that stage for different reasons like not being able to go under the stage and slanted ledges and there isnt as much space because there is a straight edge on the side near the ledge. MK loves it when people cant recover as well.

 

[Zankoku]

He can't glide under the stage and I think his planking isn't as effective.

"He's bad on that stage because he can't do things there that are banned in my region anyway."

...wait, wat?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

But everyone has trouble recovering on that stage for different reasons like not being able to go under the stage and slanted ledges and there isnt as much space because there is a straight edge on the side near the ledge. MK loves it when people cant recover as well.

IDK I look at it like this I'd rather fight a MK on YI as opposed to BF or SV. The stage may not be OMG hard counter to MK but it's not as good for him as on of the other starters. If you considering one of the things people cry about when mK is his planking or him gliding under the stage (meep vs m2k) Then I fail to see how a stage that effectively reduce both isn't considered a bad stage for him.

Oh yeah the stage list is also **** for MK so good luck at MLG if you don't main MK Snake or d3.

 

[<π]

But everyone has trouble recovering on that stage for different reasons like not being able to go under the stage and slanted ledges and there isnt as much space because there is a straight edge on the side near the ledge. Everyone loves it when people cant recover as well.

Edited in bold.

 

[Praxis]

Green Greens is glorious for MK. Dsmash kills early, ground shuttle loop kills early, he can dtilt lock you into the blocks (potentially blowing you up while he takes no damage - hurrah for disjoints!), and has a whopping total of eight edges for him to recover to.

Relatively speaking, I guess Snake beats him there, but overall he gains a lot on that stage. A lot more than he loses.

If MK had to have a 'worst stage' I guess FD would count, but he isn't really bad anywhere in the game.

Dtilt lock doesn't work; the dtilt destroys the blocks immediately.

Recovery doesn't matter; the ledges are right by the edge.

Dsmash doesn't kill early if you're in the center of the stage; the block walls prevent you from going anywhere with DI. Meanwhile, MK has no way to kill off the top well. Camp the center. MK can't kill you, and you kill him at half the percents.

Play the stage right. MK gets ***** if you just stay in the center. He has to do a lot of work to get you way over to the edge to land a dsmash, while anyone who kills off the top is at ease.

 

[Ussi]

MK doesn't need gliding to win.

 

[DanGR]

MK's dtilt lock on Green Greens- If you don't keep mashing the "A" button, but instead wait a sec after you dtilt so you don't move forward, thereby NOT breaking the blocks, will the dtilt lock work then?


I think Praxis searches "Green Greens".

 

[T-block]

IMO, a starter should be (in addition to CP criteria):
-Not too disruptive (calling it quits around what Halberd or CS does)
-Not overly polarizing (A good example of a polarizing stage would be RC. Almost the most important factor there is how good you are in the air-if you have a poor air game, you're **** out of luck)
-Does not give a huge advantage to too many characters (This is part of why I worry about Delfino as a starter; its walkoffs are relatively common and we know why those are bad, and the water allows for some real abuse for chars with good spikes. However, they are mostly avoidable, and you can stall most of them out)
-Would not be a common target of a stage ban against most top chars (Like, you would automatically ban Norfair, Brinstar, or RC against some characters; they are obviously not starters)

I'm not sure some of these are necessary. In my opinion, it comes down to two criteria that can be rationally justified. The first is being overall "neutral" - obviously this can't happen, but when considering all the matchups, some stages are more "neutral" than others. The second is that it should have little random element. Things like Halberd's hazards do not fall under random element. Both of these criteria stem from the fact that the first match is the most important match of the set, so we should try to make the result as accurate as possible. If you can come up with other criteria and justify it, I'd love to hear it.

I'd rather fight Diddy on FD, and I'd rather fight ICs on BF or Lylat. That said, ICs are still a very formidable character even without chaingrabbing. Consider for a moment the implications of hitlag - they can bait you by allowing your attack to hit one of them to give them a window in which to smash you, or grab you, etc.

As for fighting Diddy or Falco, on FD, it's much easier because they don't have a ceiling stopping me from approaching them from above.

I would also like to add that in a region with most of these "anti-ICs' CPs banned, ICs don't really seem to thrive. We have a few people who alt them, but almost no mains. And yet, one of the best ICs mains lives in the Midwest, where a lot of these stages are legal.

Just food for thought.

It's not necessarily about straight camping. Diddy can control the stage much better on FD than on Battlefield. He still has options for dealing with approaches from above even on FD, without a platform above him. It's also significantly harder to avoid ICs grab on FD than on platformed stages.

I meant that as an MK I would rather be on Delfino or Halberd than most stages, as they support his most broken aspect: extreme difficulty to punish.

And MKs worst stage is FD lol. By far.

Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a bad MK stage that should be legal.

 

[fkacyan]

Dtilt lock doesn't work; the dtilt destroys the blocks immediately.

Recovery doesn't matter; the ledges are right by the edge.

Dsmash doesn't kill early if you're in the center of the stage; the block walls prevent you from going anywhere with DI. Meanwhile, MK has no way to kill off the top well. Camp the center. MK can't kill you, and you kill him at half the percents.

Play the stage right. MK gets ***** if you just stay in the center. He has to do a lot of work to get you way over to the edge to land a dsmash, while anyone who kills off the top is at ease.

MK can't kill off the top?!

Wow. You must have missed the direction that a grounded shuttle loop hits you for the past two years.

 

[gamesuxcard]

edit: whoops, ignore this. i think i divided by zero.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

MK's dtilt lock on Green Greens- If you don't keep mashing the "A" button, but instead wait a sec after you dtilt so you don't move forward, thereby NOT breaking the blocks, will the dtilt lock work then?


I think Praxis searches "Green Greens".

ahaha its true though, mk doesnt move forward if there is a slight pause before the next dtilt input

MK can't kill off the top?!

Wow. You must have missed the direction that a grounded shuttle loop hits you for the past two years.

theres also Uair/tornado as well and to put insult with injury id go as far to say utilt as well

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm not sure some of these are necessary. In my opinion, it comes down to two criteria that can be rationally justified. The first is being overall "neutral" - obviously this can't happen, but when considering all the matchups, some stages are more "neutral" than others. The second is that it should have little random element. Things like Halberd's hazards do not fall under random element. Both of these criteria stem from the fact that the first match is the most important match of the set, so we should try to make the result as accurate as possible. If you can come up with other criteria and justify it, I'd love to hear it.

Well, if neutral and non-random are the big two, I'd say FD absolutely ***** one of them up the ***.

 

[OverLade]

lol@ anyone wanting to fight MK on Yoshis island.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a bad MK stage that should be legal.

But should be doesn't mean it is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol@ anyone wanting to fight MK on Yoshis island.

Why is it bad ?

 

[1048576]

I'd list all the moving stages for Thio, but I think T-block summed it up well. The fact of the matter is, you may enjoy playing on the stage, but you don't like the way it affects competition, which means you don't like something about it, which is why you're arguing in the first place. More people have tripped into Snake F-smashes than have had matches decided solely on Pictochat. Picto has hitboxes, but not all transformations have them, most are plenty avoidable, and there's nothing that uber-***** any character more than any other, so everyone has nearly equal risk in playing on it (larger characters can hit stage hazards easier, obviously).

It's a risky stage, but that's why it's counterpick.

Why are you stupid?

Moving != Unpredictable.

Now either learn to speak from the correct orifice or get off the internet.

 

[OverLade]

Why is it bad ?

That's the funny thing.

You wouldn't think a slightly irregular floor and a tilting platform would help MK so much...

 

[MarKO X]

Why are you stupid?

Moving != Unpredictable.

Now either learn to speak from the correct orifice or get off the internet.

i'm confizzed
where in that post does it imply that moving = unpredictable?

edit: lol, nevermind, i looked at the original post and understood the concept.

in terms of the concept: halberd, and norfair can randomly choose who wins without two players moving...
green greens cannot.
frigate and brinstar can choose who wins based on fall speed afaik.


whats the issue again?

 

[<π]

On yoshi's that plat is a perfect run away zone for MK after tornado after upB so he can avoid a lot of follow ups if he is in a bad situation. it doesn't play to his advantages as well as BF, SV, or defino, but it isn't bad.

 

[Judo777]

SO if MK isnt moving during the dtilt lock then he just has a wall infinite...... just like 14 other characters in the cast although im pretty sure with good enough DI most dtilt locks are escapable its just really freaking hard.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's the funny thing.

You wouldn't think a slightly irregular floor and a tilting platform would help MK so much...

Care to explain more because I don't get it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Why are you stupid?

Moving != Unpredictable.

Now either learn to speak from the correct orifice or get off the internet.

Why are you stupid?

Thio said that any stage that can decide a match if one player doesn't even touch the controller should be qualified to be banned, or at least looked at. Moving stages, predictable or not, can (and will) kill you if you don't move.

Now either learn to speak from the correct orifice or get off the internet.

 

[1048576]

*sigh ... that's not what Thio said...

If you can't understand why getting lovetapped into further damage that wouldn't have happened if you were just luckier is different from getting lovetapped into further damage that happens every single time controlling for placement and maybe the clock, then there's no point to this discussion. Hopefully not everyone else is a brick wall and perhaps they can glean something from Thaynocide's posts. (prolly completely butchered that username, w/e)

Tests of skill should seek to minimize luck. Tourneys are a test of skill.

Just to reiterate in case there are any hamsters reading this:

On Pictochat, what spawns is random, and therefor luck-based.
On RC and other moving stages, what spawns is not random, and therefore not luck-based.

Why we don't ban Peach and G-Dub and Luigi and D3 for their randomness is another can of worms. Needless to say, if there was an easy way to take the randomness out of those moves, those of us who aren't scrubs would have implemented it already.

It's okay to be a scrub. It's not okay to foist your anti-competitive philosophy on the rest of us.

 

[T-block]

^Yoshi's Island

We should ban it then.

 

[kr3wman]

We should ban Brawl because it has random elements we can't remove without hacking the game.

We should ban SF2 because it has random elements we can't remove without hacking the game.

We should ban the human mind because it has random elements we can't remove without killing the body outright.

We'll only let computers face each other only in neutrals.

 

[MarKO X]

but computers can randomly glitch.

 

[fkacyan]

We should ban Brawl because it has random elements we can't remove without hacking the game.

We should ban SF2 because it has random elements we can't remove without hacking the game.

We should ban the human mind because it has random elements we can't remove without killing the body outright.

We'll only let computers face each other only in neutrals.

I'm tempted to write a forum post about the intricacies of what is statistically acceptable randomness, but I have more enjoyable things to do, like slam my head into a wall.

Half of the points I make in each post are ignored in favor of arguing against one. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[CaliburChamp]

People are so picky when it comes to stages. It's ridiculous. People wanting to ban Yoshi Island Brawl because it has the platform ghosts pop up randomly? Get the **** off the internet seriously.

 

[Alphicans]

No they don't. It's just a good example to use against a lot of people who bash stages, since the ghost can severely change a match, yet it is still considered neutral. T-block is being sarcastic.

 

[Jim Morrison]

What a generous starter selection.