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I want to reply to this post but the only thing appropriate is making a 14 mile long post filled with laughing emoticons.
and i'll spare everyone from that.
-
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The Unofficial Offical MLG Ruleset Discussion
- Thread starter AlMoStLeGeNdArY
- Start date
and i'll spare everyone from that.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
That's totally not fair! You should have died! You shouldn't have won that match because I disagree with how you won it.
Ban RC.
Edit @ Spelt: This isn't the thread for it, so I'll leave it at this edit: rathy Aro is totally right. Many people don't even understand why items are banned anymore. It's fine not to like them, but people should at least understand the rationale. <_<
Comparing RC to Picto is dumb, because RC is 100% predictable.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Sure, but on a neutral stage, that would have been a kill. The stage interfered, and this is Smash, a competitive fighting game. As such, we should strive to be just like every other fighting game out there, and so we shouldn't allow events like that to occur. Furthermore, I don't like it. Because I don't like it, others shouldn't like it either. It's anti-competitive, and that's because it's anti-competitive.
Ban RC.
[/scathing sarcasm]
Unrelated note: has anyone else been having trouble with their avatars lately?
Ban RC.
[/scathing sarcasm]
Unrelated note: has anyone else been having trouble with their avatars lately?
Wow. I think you don't know how to interact with people, and can only argue against strawmen.
Avatar server had a hiccup, it's in the Announcements boards. Everybody has to re-upload.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I think it's the custom avatars that people are having trouble with. DI'ing into the blocks is no different then teching the stage but you're clearly trolling so I'll let you continue.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I was wondering if that was just me or not but yes i am too.
I applaud MLG stage list. it seems everyone has at least 2 very solid CP stages now.
btw pictochat becomes less and less random as the stages progress. you'll never see the same one twice with an 8 min. timer
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Indeed.
Guys, I can almost understand the johning about Green Greens. But you know what? You have stage bans for a reason. Johning about Pictochat, a stage with random factors that are not only hardly random, but easily seen and avoided (and, let's not forget, there's a spot where they don't connect!), which does not favor any character extremely... Does it? I mean, sure, there's an occasional wall for DDD, but really?
I think Pictochat is as legitimate a counterpick as battlefield is a starter.
I think Final Destination is as legitimate a starter as Rainbow Cruise. It's very polarizing, remember?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I'll be honest with you: this whole Pictochat thing (and in a broader sense, the whole "PRNG" thing) has me in a really bad mood. I hate hypocrisy, and I can't help but taste it all throughout this debate. The fact of the matter is that there is no concrete rule anywhere in life that says random = anti-competitive, but people keep asserting it like it's gospel. On top of that, people have the gall to selectively be ok with some random stuff, but not others, and usually for completely arbitrary reasons.
TL;DR: I get *****y when people are acting like hypocrites, and if you stick with your opinion about Pictochat, you'll always make me *****y when you talk to me, because you won't stop being a hypocrite until you quit playing Brawl entirely. Random chance is a large part of Brawl and always will be until we ban 75% of the stages and ban Peach, D3, G&W, and make hacked Brawl the standard for tournament play to eliminate tripping.
(Edited for BPC being totally right.)
TL;DR: I get *****y when people are acting like hypocrites, and if you stick with your opinion about Pictochat, you'll always make me *****y when you talk to me, because you won't stop being a hypocrite until you quit playing Brawl entirely. Random chance is a large part of Brawl and always will be until we ban 75% of the stages and ban Peach, D3, G&W, and make hacked Brawl the standard for tournament play to eliminate tripping.
(Edited for BPC being totally right.)
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Also until we make no tripping a tournament standard.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Your tldr is almost as long as your post. Just sayin'. But I agree with most of it.
XD i never laughed so hard at the outcome of a match in brawl in my life XD
that marth kept tiltlocking like a *******, then got royally ***** big time by being mindgame ****ed with teh stage.
ty for the biggest laugh of the night XD
You don't understand why randomness is bad for competition? Oh boy. I'm just going to leave this one alone for now; there are probably a lot of people who can explain this better than I can.
You won't get why I'm not a hypocrite for continuing to play the game until you understand the concept of what is an acceptable risk and what isn't from a statistical point of view. There are shades of gray of randomness. While arguably all of it is bad, some of it is a lot less bad than others.
Let's take T-Block's example (obviously, this is not actual data, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is) of 95% of matches going to the person who is actually more skilled on Pictochat. That means that 5%, or 1/20 matches will go to the less-skilled player. One out of every twenty! Theoretically 2 matches per set can be played on the stage, which means that on average once every ten sets the less-skilled player would take a match, if not the set! And while 1/20 seems like an awfully small number, statistically speaking it's huge; the cutoff for data being unacceptable is usually a factor of ten lower!
Maybe those are acceptable odds to you, when this year's circuit is crucial to the broader acceptance of the game on a higher competitive level (Not play level, but scale, money, etc), but they aren't to me.
T-block
B2B TST
For the record, that number 95% did not have a lot of thought put into it. What I meant was that the chances of the lesser-skilled player winning on Pictochat aren't that much higher than the chances of that happening on a starter stage. In other words, in the outcome of matches played on that stage, the deviance from the "correct" result is insignificant. It's of the same order of magnitude as how often tripping, or stitchfaces affect a match. Obviously it happens more frequently, but it's of the same order.
Also, in many of the cases where a player is actually screwed over by the stage, a little bit of effort in considering the stage when making a choice (like choosing how to recover) would probably have prevented it.
Also, in many of the cases where a player is actually screwed over by the stage, a little bit of effort in considering the stage when making a choice (like choosing how to recover) would probably have prevented it.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Thio is ALSO assuming that every match would be played on Pictochat, or that every set will have the stage, or that it would even be a problem in high level play. There are SO MANY assumptions in that argument that it's almost mind-boggling.
First of all, you GROSSLY overestimate how many times that stage would even come up. In terms of matchups, most people aren't 100% aware yet of exactly how that stage favors certain matchups, so many people are going to stay away from it. The stage, admittedly, has a higher chance of crap happening than some other stages... but that means that people are only going to CP to it if they are certain that they can pull the win. For instance, I now know that you are probably crap on Pictochat because you most likely don't play it much (if at all) anymore since it's been banned. Many people are also this way. Wouldn't it make a lot of sense to practice that stage a ton, learn the transformations and how to deal with them (because it's not like they are OHKO win buttons), then meet you (or someone like you) in bracket who can't deal with the stage and take you there, knowing that I'll have an advantage?
The point of a counterpick is to give the loser an advantage. To even the playing field. Otherwise, why do it? I take you to Japes, and the Klap Trap can still hit me. I take you to Corneria, and I can still die from the low ceiling or the lasers. Hell, I take you to FD, and I can still get lip-gimped. You take these things into account when you willingly choose the stage. No one is being forced to play Picto. At all. Have it legal. Either people play it, and its fine (the default), no one plays it because they don't want to (and it doesn't matter whether we ban or not), or you're right and we ban the stage (and problem solved; MLG has already said they are cool with mid-season bans if the case is extreme enough).
There's no problem here. You're making a problem.
First of all, you GROSSLY overestimate how many times that stage would even come up. In terms of matchups, most people aren't 100% aware yet of exactly how that stage favors certain matchups, so many people are going to stay away from it. The stage, admittedly, has a higher chance of crap happening than some other stages... but that means that people are only going to CP to it if they are certain that they can pull the win. For instance, I now know that you are probably crap on Pictochat because you most likely don't play it much (if at all) anymore since it's been banned. Many people are also this way. Wouldn't it make a lot of sense to practice that stage a ton, learn the transformations and how to deal with them (because it's not like they are OHKO win buttons), then meet you (or someone like you) in bracket who can't deal with the stage and take you there, knowing that I'll have an advantage?
The point of a counterpick is to give the loser an advantage. To even the playing field. Otherwise, why do it? I take you to Japes, and the Klap Trap can still hit me. I take you to Corneria, and I can still die from the low ceiling or the lasers. Hell, I take you to FD, and I can still get lip-gimped. You take these things into account when you willingly choose the stage. No one is being forced to play Picto. At all. Have it legal. Either people play it, and its fine (the default), no one plays it because they don't want to (and it doesn't matter whether we ban or not), or you're right and we ban the stage (and problem solved; MLG has already said they are cool with mid-season bans if the case is extreme enough).
There's no problem here. You're making a problem.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Green Greens in doubles...
Will be hilarious to watch on livestream when pros are playing on it.
Will be hilarious to watch on livestream when pros are playing on it.
Ad hominem crap as usual. You act as though my wanting the stage banned is a personal vendetta, which I have repeatedly stated it is not.
As far as my hypothetical is concerned, obviously the numbers are grossly exaggerated if not made up. It was to illustrate a point, not give actual data. That said, the situation I presented is not actually an impossible scenario, however unlikely.
I've made my argument. If you honestly think the game actually gains more than it loses from those stages, I sincerely hope this does not blow up in your face (Or mine, for that matter).
@Ether: Get on AIM for once.
T-block
B2B TST
Hold up, Jack. How often a stage WOULD be played if it were legal shouldn't ever come into consideration when discussing legality. =\
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I'll concede that point, T-block (although, if that's the case, you're post should read "Hold up, Thiocyanide and Jack.", since Thio used a probability argument first).
The crux of Thio's argument is simply "Picto, as a stage, could help decide the outcome of a match," which is something that's NEVER been proven to be a bad thing. My previous flawed argument aside, until he (or anyone else, for that matter) proves that having stages influence match outcome in ANY way is a "bad" thing, or to be more direct, is counter to what Smash (or Brawl) is at its core, he has no argument at all.
It's not about gain or loss. It's about banning something that isn't a problem because you don't like it (and don't lie, Thio; you wouldn't be arguing if you didn't like something about that stage).
T-block
B2B TST
The stage always has an effect on the outcome of a match, whether it's Wario Ware or Final Destination... no one would argue that it's a bad thing. Thio's argument was that it could result in an outcome that is random, and not dependent on player skill, which is probably a bad thing for a competitive game.
Essentially we're arguing over whether the randomness in Pictochat is worth banning it from play. Thio seems to think that any randomness warrants a ban (to which I say there are other sources of randomness that are comparable to what Pictochat has), while I claim that the randomness on Pictochat is does not have a large enough effect in the overall scope of things to be banned, when we consider that it would be a shame to lose a pretty neutral stage, that strongly rewards stage knowledge (which I have always advocated).
Essentially we're arguing over whether the randomness in Pictochat is worth banning it from play. Thio seems to think that any randomness warrants a ban (to which I say there are other sources of randomness that are comparable to what Pictochat has), while I claim that the randomness on Pictochat is does not have a large enough effect in the overall scope of things to be banned, when we consider that it would be a shame to lose a pretty neutral stage, that strongly rewards stage knowledge (which I have always advocated).
OK, I wasn't going to post again, but I have to fix this.
The crux of my argument is that if a stage can decide a match with literally zero player interaction, it is a strong ban candidate. If this can happen on a regular, unpredictable basis, it is even further down the road the ban-ation, or whatever. Your comparison to RC is awful because RC at its core is 100% predictable, unlike Picto.
And no, as a stage, I love Pictochat. It's one of my favorite CPs as a ZSS player because many of the transformations support her spacing and juggling game quite nicely, and it gives you longer to live against characters with KO power, in addition to sometimes giving me a KO I don't have to work as hard for.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Yes, well, RC can kill you for standing still. Stay on one place the whole round on pictochat and you probably will not die.
T-block
B2B TST
Halberd will decide a match with zero player interaction.
Seriously, the percentage of matches that have had their outcome CHANGED by Pictochat's randomness is very very small. The percentage of matches that have had their outcome changed UNAVOIDABLY is even smaller.
Seriously, the percentage of matches that have had their outcome CHANGED by Pictochat's randomness is very very small. The percentage of matches that have had their outcome changed UNAVOIDABLY is even smaller.
Ah, but then we take into account its amazing predictability. Literally everything on Halberd is telegraphed.
@BPC: See previous statement.
I'm not using one universal condition to decide what or what not to call banworthy.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I'd list all the moving stages for Thio, but I think T-block summed it up well. The fact of the matter is, you may enjoy playing on the stage, but you don't like the way it affects competition, which means you don't like something about it, which is why you're arguing in the first place. More people have tripped into Snake F-smashes than have had matches decided solely on Pictochat. Picto has hitboxes, but not all transformations have them, most are plenty avoidable, and there's nothing that uber-***** any character more than any other, so everyone has nearly equal risk in playing on it (larger characters can hit stage hazards easier, obviously).
It's a risky stage, but that's why it's counterpick.
T-block
B2B TST
I'm just giving you a hard time ;D
Pictochat is more "predictable" than you think though. There's no certainty to it, like Halberd, but you can definitely plan for the future, and make good decisions that will make it less likely for the stage to wreck you. If someone played the stage optimally, it'd be very rare that they would be screwed over by the stage; and optimal play should be what we're looking at here.
Fun fact, the hitboxes for the drawings don't become active until after they are completely drawn. They're drawn fairly quickly, but often it is enough time to change your DI if you're about to be thrown into spikes.
Pictochat is more "predictable" than you think though. There's no certainty to it, like Halberd, but you can definitely plan for the future, and make good decisions that will make it less likely for the stage to wreck you. If someone played the stage optimally, it'd be very rare that they would be screwed over by the stage; and optimal play should be what we're looking at here.
Fun fact, the hitboxes for the drawings don't become active until after they are completely drawn. They're drawn fairly quickly, but often it is enough time to change your DI if you're about to be thrown into spikes.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Really? That I didn't know. +1 for legality.
gamesuxcard
Smash Journeyman
Who else is STOKED to gimp kids on greeen greeeens?
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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DK will get auto kills at or above 70% because of cargo.even earlier if he's on the side
gamesuxcard
Smash Journeyman
If kids get grabbed that close the edge by dk on any stage they desrve to be cargo spiked, unless they can mash jump juuust right for the footstool. but green greens lets us ruin all of that with falling bombs!
I know I sound sarcastic but I'm so pumped to see people rage in their three player games.
I know I sound sarcastic but I'm so pumped to see people rage in their three player games.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I was actually talking about DK throwing them into the blast zone...
gamesuxcard
Smash Journeyman
oh even better, I can see the epic dk v peach matches now, mmmmm.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
"You can just ban it" is NOT a justifiable argument for a stage being legal. People need to stop spewing this phrase.
gamesuxcard
Smash Journeyman
Points for Stauffenberg. We can't ban every ridiculous stage. Gay **** is bound to happen.
picto chat (like all stages with random changes... bar stupid wario ware and it's disappearing edges) give the player time to understand a change is coming. defino you fly around and land randomly, long before you land, long before the change you know that change is coming. Frigate that change is completely random, but the sirens and flashing lights let you know ahead of time a change is going to happen, not as much warning as defino, but warning. The pokemon stadium levels also follow this idea, flashing the transformation on screen before it happens preparing you for whats to come. Green greens the stupid tree takes a deep breath before he blows.
Stages like Halbred with stage hazzards, the stupid claw bounces around, the reticule appears on screen. And get this even picto chat gives the player warning a change is going to take place, the environment is drawinto veiw before collision is set, and always before damaging hit boxes appear. Yeah... if you are thrown into as it appears you may be screwed (but with low hit stun and DI you should still be able to have affect over the situation) but for you to be standing around and be punished for it won't ever happen unless you let it.
it's funny because it's always been that way every stage with hazzards and changes; they are all very well laid out and easy to avoid including Spear pillar, Port town, pirate ship, etc.
Stages like Halbred with stage hazzards, the stupid claw bounces around, the reticule appears on screen. And get this even picto chat gives the player warning a change is going to take place, the environment is drawinto veiw before collision is set, and always before damaging hit boxes appear. Yeah... if you are thrown into as it appears you may be screwed (but with low hit stun and DI you should still be able to have affect over the situation) but for you to be standing around and be punished for it won't ever happen unless you let it.
it's funny because it's always been that way every stage with hazzards and changes; they are all very well laid out and easy to avoid including Spear pillar, Port town, pirate ship, etc.
Small portion?
That's almost the entire bottom stage, bro, not counting the various heights the missiles can spawn(the only possible hazard that can spawn on the bottom right), making the grounded right portion sometimes completely safe as well, but I wouldn't count on that too much if you do see them spawning unless your character has a short crouch. <<
Since I'm too lazy to write another essay on this, I'll quote phanna.
"Pictochat cycles through all 27 sketches (picking each one once) every 12 minutes. They are evenly distributed with 13.33 seconds per sketch, and 13.33 seconds of blankness. The same sketch can start one set that had ended the previous set. The missiles come in at various heights (same general layout though), and have fixed knockback like the flames. The other hazards knock you farther with more percentage."
Basically, in 8 minutes, 18 drawings are drawn. Realistically, matches last 4-5 minutes. This means that you'll be seeing around 9-11 drawings each match. Of the 27 possible drawings, only 7 can ever hurt you.
Of the 7, 5 will never do more than 10%, and one will almost never do more than 4% if it even does that and will never kill you. The last one will never kill you if you DI properly due to set knock back. . Also, drawings don't repeat.
ALSO, each drawing takes a good 3-4 seconds before they're actually active. The hitboxes and collision data only become active after the phase is completely drawn. If you can't react in time to at least change your DI in the good 3-4 second warning it gives you (It even has audio to tell you as well!), then quite honestly either you're dumb or you were in a ridiculously compromising situation in the first place.