The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Kitamerby]

Ganon's SideB is awful. It has like no priority and it can easily be spotdodged on reaction.

Stop exaggerating. It's not amazingly easy to land, but anyone saying that the move is downright awful seriously needs to stop what they're doing and actually play the **** game. :\

lol ganon sucks.

Honestly, even with all of that, that's ALL i got from that. You can say they're superb, but you would be lying. They are superb when it comes to Power, nothing else (for most of them).

Unfortunately, you're wrong.

Uair, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair, Usmash, SideB(including followups) and DownB (Aerial) all have pretty fast start-up for their power output.
Uair, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash, Usmash, and DownB (Aerial) all have pretty good range and coverage for physical attacks.

Bair, Uair, and Dair all autocancel. Fair was also meant to autocancel, but due to a coding error, it doesn't. :|

 

[Purple]

Fast start-up, in comparison to who? Saying it's fast in comparison to it's power means nothing, what matter is if these moves will be able to come out in time of another move.

His attacks have pretty good range, but once again in comparison to who?

If they are all great in comparison to top tiers, then he would be used much more often wouldn't he?

 

[Kitamerby]

Fast start-up, in comparison to who? Saying it's fast in comparison to it's power means nothing, what matter is if these moves will be able to come out in time of another move.

10 frames for a move that kills as well as Ganondorf's Ftilt is pretty insane.
Dash Attack is insanely powerful for its speed.
Ganondorf's Fsmash is also immensely powerful for its speed and range.

Actually, fast is fast. The moves I listed are considered fast for such strong kill moves no matter what scale you use (as long as MK isn't on it). .V.

His attacks have pretty good range, but once again in comparison to who?

A good chunk of low/mid tier, and some in high.

If they are all great in comparison to top tiers, then he would be used much more often wouldn't he?

Not exactly. The problem with Ganondorf is that all his moves are kill moves, and as such, their uses constantly overlap. He also has terrible mobility, and has virtually no options to keep someone from shielding as soon as he's in range, which effectively shuts down his entire moveset and makes him somewhat incapable of hitting anything reliably. This turns him into a defensive character with below average oos and no way to reliably force an approach. His recovery sucks too, and as insult to injury, Ganondorf is also riddled with coding errors that turn what should've been great moves into terrible ones. :V

 

[Purple]

So ganon sucks ;P.

 

[Kitamerby]

So ganon sucks ;P.

But his moves themeselves would be great on anyone else. :V

 

[adumbrodeus]

So ganon sucks ;P.

Obviously, but it wasn't kita's point that he doesn't, his point is that the moves by themselves are quite amazing.


If only they were synergistic.

 

[Purple]

But his moves themeselves would be great on anyone else. :V

It really is a shame isn't it? But then again, there has to be characters like this.

 

[phi1ny3]

10 frames for a move that kills as well as Ganondorf's Ftilt is pretty insane.
Dash Attack is insanely powerful for its speed.
Ganondorf's Fsmash is also immensely powerful for its speed and range.

Actually, fast is fast. The moves I listed are considered fast for such strong kill moves no matter what scale you use (as long as MK isn't on it). .V.


A good chunk of low/mid tier, and some in high.


Not exactly. The problem with Ganondorf is that all his moves are kill moves, and as such, their uses constantly overlap. He also has terrible mobility, and has virtually no options to keep someone from shielding as soon as he's in range, which effectively shuts down his entire moveset and makes him somewhat incapable of hitting anything reliably. This turns him into a defensive character with below average oos and no way to reliably force an approach. His recovery sucks too, and as insult to injury, Ganondorf is also riddled with coding errors that turn what should've been great moves into terrible ones. :V

Like that fair that was supposed to have reduced landing lag.

Now it's like impossible to stop the lag even after using it from a double jump (except on a platform).

 

[Blacknight99923]

does SDing count as canceling lag?
because you could count using it off stage then

 

[san.]

SDing just cancels everythig.

Jigglypuff with Ganon's dair would be so nice, + low percent combos.

 

[Blacknight99923]

SDing just cancels everythig.

Jigglypuff with Ganon's dair would be so nice, + low percent combos.

could you imagine MK with ganons dair

nm MK wouldn't be legal so it wouldn't matter

 

[Kole]

Mk with ganon's dair would be LOL

 

[Ussi]

MK with a spike is LOL

 

[Shaya]

MK with a move like ganon's dair so he'd be "somewhat" like his in-game counterpart (his down aerial is like link's down air) would stop mk's dair being ridiculous for gimping and zoning

 

[Kaffei]

MK with a move like ganon's dair so he'd be "somewhat" like his in-game counterpart (his down aerial is like link's down air) would stop mk's dair being ridiculous for gimping and zoning

Huh? If MK had Ganon's dair, wouldn't he be able to gimp even more easily lol

 

[Ripple]

MK with a move like ganon's dair so he'd be "somewhat" like his in-game counterpart (his down aerial is like link's down air) would stop mk's dair being ridiculous for gimping and zoning

who said anything about it taking on its complete properties?

I was thinking its MK's frame data with ganon's dair's damage and spike property

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I don't play enough saxophone... what do I do?!

Play more saxophone, IMO.

 

[Kitamerby]

Huh? If MK had Ganon's dair, wouldn't he be able to gimp even more easily lol

He'd also be able to kill people onstage at 85. :V

 

[Conviction]

Lol he could combo into itself if he still had his frame data of hit normal dair and hitstun of ganon's.

(Aerial is down, press it while I'm jumpin up)

 

[Juushichi]

Combo it into tornado, too.

(Then I hit the B button like I don't give a ****.)

 

[Clai]

Ganon has a really, REALLY low damage output since he can't land any of his moves.

Real men land moves with Ganon. ;p

Stop exaggerating. It's not amazingly easy to land, but anyone saying that the move is downright awful seriously needs to stop what they're doing and actually play the **** game. :\


Unfortunately, you're wrong.

Uair, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair, Usmash, SideB(including followups) and DownB (Aerial) all have pretty fast start-up for their power output.
Uair, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash, Usmash, and DownB (Aerial) all have pretty good range and coverage for physical attacks.

Bair, Uair, and Dair all autocancel. Fair was also meant to autocancel, but due to a coding error, it doesn't. :|

Unfortunately, Ganon's Side-B is a pretty bad move. It's too easy to avoid on reaction for it to be useful, although landing it is pretty sweet. You can essentially only use Side-B when you're either punishing a landing or predicting that your opponent will sit in his shield and not realizing that you're going to grab them until it's too late (completely unreliable, I know, but considering that shielding beats everything that Ganon does, playing mindgames with them isn't wholly unviable).

Even with the coding error fixed, Ganon's Fair would only have autocanceled on a full hop, like his Nair does.

Are there any videos that show Charizard being used at his fullest? Going back a few pages, I really don't see what Charizard can do that Squirtle and Ivysaur can't do better. I bet Charizard's tilts serve good purposes but Charizard doesn't look like a character that can maneuver and space his moves at will.

 

[Kitamerby]

Unfortunately, Ganon's Side-B is a pretty bad move. It's too easy to avoid on reaction for it to be useful, although landing it is pretty sweet. You can essentially only use Side-B when you're either punishing a landing or predicting that your opponent will sit in his shield and not realizing that you're going to grab them until it's too late (completely unreliable, I know, but considering that shielding beats everything that Ganon does, playing mindgames with them isn't wholly unviable).

I really meant more that the reward is much greater than anything with that short of a startup. The superb tech chase game it provides (especially on some characters), as well as the fact how it automatically leads into kill moves if performed while grounded more than makes up for the below-average start-up time imo.

Yeah, it's not great, but I wouldn't call it AWFUL...

And whoops, I meant to put it in the coverage list instead of start-up. My bad.

Even with the coding error fixed, Ganon's Fair would only have autocanceled on a full hop, like his Nair does.

I remember something about FoG being able to be performed out of Full Hop Fair, as well as instant aerial SideB.

 

[hichez50]

Anyone ever see ganons frame data and see all the ending lag on his moves? Maybe ganon is just slow.

 

[Clai]

I really meant more that the reward is much greater than anything with that short of a startup. The superb tech chase game it provides (especially on some characters), as well as the fact how it automatically leads into kill moves if performed while grounded more than makes up for the below-average start-up time imo.

Yeah, it's not great, but I wouldn't call it AWFUL...

I know about the benefits of Ganon's Flame Choke when he lands it, but that's the point, the opponent knows what Ganon can do if he lands that Choke, so they're going to do whatever is in their power to avoid it, and with that start-up, avoiding it is not hard to do.

So I agree, it's not an awful move, but not a good move either. It's a move that requires precision and prediction to pull off, like half of his moveset.

I remember something about FoG being able to be performed out of Full Hop Fair, as well as instant aerial SideB.

You are right, I said that Fair would have been autocancellable from a full hop, I was pointing out that you wouldn't have been able to autocancel it from a shorthop like you can with Uair, Bair and Dair, even if the coding error was fixed.

 

[Mariofan12]

I think there are too many tiers. I think the next tier list should have no "G" tier.

 

[volume]

ok then... as you all continue to debate ganon or something like that how about that pikachu nice eh? =P

 

[REL38]

People stopped talking about Ganon days ago

Just sayin'

 

[volume]

People stopped talking about Ganon days ago

Just sayin'

oh...... lol i feel stupid

 

[Goldenadept]

we could talk about wolf cause he's super cool, has purple things and doesnt afraid of anything

 

[John102]

^

I bet Wolf can play a kick *** saxophone.

 

[Goldenadept]

i bet he already does mang, he's cool like that

 

[Dark.Pch]

I play a mean guitar and main Peach. So wolf is like.............done for.

 

[Purple]

Wolf is an animal, with no thumbs though.

How does he even shoot guns?

 

[Espy Rose]

Because he's cool like that.

 

[Goldenadept]

he's got thumbs, look at his model, he's an evolved version of the common timber wolf, and therefore much more epic and cool.
i'm betting he would play a mean bass as well, seems like the type

 

[Yonder]

Wolf's a neat little character, great smashes, **** recovery.

Pretty solid though, a little above average i'd say, I dunno, maybe move up over Luigi and Fox.

 

[Goldenadept]

fox only plays symbols, of course he's better than fox. i see luigi having a triangle or a kazoo so maybe he'd be even with wolf

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike plays the cannon from the 1812 overturn. In fact, he plays it every time he lands a hit with his Fsmash. :D

 

[clowsui]

Ike plays the cannon from the 1812 overturn. In fact, he plays it every time he lands a hit with his Fsmash. :D

think you meant overture*

 

[GwJ]

ROB plays a synthesizer, so I think he beats you all.