The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Z'zgashi]

DK plays the bongos and ***** all their *****

 

[Xebenkeck]

Ganon plays a mean church organ though......

 

[Variable]

Ganon plays a mean church organ though......

This wins with out a doubt. DK 2nd.

 

[REL38]

Bongos are overhyped

Snake's vocals are where it's at

 

[Goldenadept]

snakes melodically gravelly voice could swoon a female elephant and calm a raging whale, i think snake wins this one. ganon and his organ would be a beautiful event to go to, provided the audience didnt become his churches "donations"

 

[Lenus Altair]

Pit has the voice of an Angel...

...HAYAYAYAAAAAAH!

 

[Kitamerby]

/on topic

 

[Purple]

Those Ice Climber hammer will destroy those drums.

 

[Blacknight99923]

lol at link with the ocarina

 

[Kole]

lucas plays guitar?!?

 

[Xebenkeck]

The only thing wrong with that picture is that olimar isn't playing a whistle

 

[.Marik]

I love the fact Yoshi is playing the trombone.

I used to play it in my school band. I've gotten really rusty, I would imagine. Haven't touched one in 3 years.

 

[Mariofan12]

Nice band scene

 

[Kewkky]

I know it's fun and cool and all, but you should really be gettng back on topic. I want something to discuss which I'm well-versed in, and I'm no musician. I know I'm speaking for lots of people here too!

So, what do you guys think of MK being alone in the S tier? And what about reducing the amount of tiers? Should the letter division stay, or would it be better to separate the tierlist in top/high/mid/low/bottom? Any ideas on how another tier list should be made, other than votes from individuals (essentially it's 'each person submits his personal tier list, then we take it all and average out the results for each character and place them in that order')?

I'll be waiting for some replies.

 

[Chuee]

I thought mid tier was a little big compared to low & high.

 

[Justblaze647]

So, what do you guys think of MK being alone in the S tier?

Metaknight da bess lol

 

[AvaricePanda]

I think MK deserves his own tier, but I don't think Snake should be in A tier either. I thought it would be like

S
MK

A+
Snake

A
Others

MK and Snake are the only two undisputed characters as far as position in the tier list goes (well...for the most part), and as far as the character rankings list and overall tournament dominance, Snake is a large margin over the rest of A tier.

 

[Justblaze647]

I don't think Snake is different enough to warrant being in a tier of his own...

 

[Shaya]

I really don't think so either.

Snake has disadvantaged match up(s).
the end.

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't think Snake is different enough to warrant being in a tier of his own...

^This

Snake is good and fun to play against however he is no MK. Though results are results. Either way Snake is always gonna be number 2 on the tier list. But he is pretty much better than the rest besides MK even with a couple disadvantages. =/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I know it's fun and cool and all, but you should really be gettng back on topic. I want something to discuss which I'm well-versed in, and I'm no musician. I know I'm speaking for lots of people here too!

So, what do you guys think of MK being alone in the S tier? And what about reducing the amount of tiers? Should the letter division stay, or would it be better to separate the tierlist in top/high/mid/low/bottom? Any ideas on how another tier list should be made, other than votes from individuals (essentially it's 'each person submits his personal tier list, then we take it all and average out the results for each character and place them in that order')?

I'll be waiting for some replies.

I really like how the list was segmented this time.

However, I think mid tier is a little big. A few mid tier characters could go to high and it would make sense and balance things out a little bit.

 

[Kewkky]

I know MK is in a league of his own, but why not just put him in first place and leave him there? Unless he's banned or something of the sort, I can't figure out why he should be separated from the rest. He's #1, Snake's #2, Blah's #3... So why not just do that and put them in that same order, under a 'less divided' tier list?

Him being #1 should just earn him the #1 spot, even if he's ahead of everyone by a good degree. Giving him his own tier usually makes people think "he's banned", or "i'll use him and start winning my matches like nobody's business". I just see him as being the best, and so he should just be in first place inside the tier of the best characters.

Thoughts?

 

[YagamiLight]

Well it all comes down to this:

If the gap between MK and the rest of the top characters is greater than, say, the gap between the rest of the top characters and high tier then you can't with good conscience place Meta Knight alongside the rest of the top tier characters and simply say he's the best. If you group him with characters who he is clearly superior to (vastly so, in fact) then it gives off the vibe of saying: "Nah, trust us, he's not super good. Look! He's with these other good characters in top tier!"

 

[Shaya]

mk is in a tier of his own.
BBR has a conscience to not have people thinking their use of an A tier character will be as successful as using MK.

MK being in his own tier was highly agreed on. Minor contention on whether or not snake and diddy would be in their own tier as well or join the rest of the current A tier. I am definitely happier now that those two remained with the rest.

 

[Kewkky]

Well it all comes down to this:

If the gap between MK and the rest of the top characters is greater than, say, the gap between the rest of the top characters and high tier then you can't with good conscience place Meta Knight alongside the rest of the top tier characters and simply say he's the best. If you group him with characters who he is clearly superior to (vastly so, in fact) then it gives off the vibe of saying: "Nah, trust us, he's not super good. Look! He's with these other good characters in top tier!"

mk is in a tier of his own.
BBR has a conscience to not have people thinking their use of an A tier character will be as successful as using MK.

MK being in his own tier was highly agreed on. Minor contention on whether or not snake and diddy would be in their own tier as well or join the rest of the current A tier. I am definitely happier now that those two remained with the rest.

Yeah, I know that stuff like the back of my hand, believe me... I've done my research. Just take it as a personal question more than a normal one, if you will.

"Why does MK HAVE to be in a tier separate from the rest of the cast? He's the best of the best characters, so why not group him with the rest of the best characters? I get the whole thing about him being substantially better than everyone else, but when ordering characters from best to worst, why not just do that same thing, and group all of the 'best characters' together, then followed up by the 'close-to-being-one-of-the-best characters', then by the 'good characters', etc etc etc? Just seeing MK in the #1 spot should be a given that he's the best, and that there's something that he has that warrants that spot over all the other ones."


I dunno, I was just thinking about what to talk about, probably derailed somewhere and ended up at that part. Just think of it as a sort-of 'reassurance', reviewing facts, whatnot.

 

[Shaya]

In this tier list I aimed towards for there to be at least reasonably conscious ability to compare characters within their own tier, in terms of viability.

If I have dedede as first in his tier, and pikachu as second and olimar as third, then who do I think is the best out of those three? It's hard for me to differentiate them, they're all close enough to me personally and also ended up pretty close to it from votes as well.

MK and snake though? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha.
Snake and diddy? well that was a reasonably close argument, even though snake has solidified 2nd place a bit more firmly since the releasement.
Snake, Diddy and Falco? hell yeah pretty close too.

 

[Kewkky]

In this tier list I aimed towards for there to be at least reasonably conscious ability to compare characters within their own tier, in terms of viability.

If I have dedede as first in his tier, and pikachu as second and olimar as third, then who do I think is the best out of those three? It's hard for me to differentiate them, they're all close enough to me personally and also ended up pretty close to it from votes as well.

That's using characters who aren't clear on where they belong. MK and Snake are 1 and 2, almost inarguably (some people believe Snake isn't 2 and claim some other character is instead, although it isn't hard to figure out that he's cemented his position as the 2nd best character). Why not just group them in that order, under the name of "best characters" (Diddy and Falco would go up for debate though)? I mean that's what the tier 'list' should be, a 'listing' of the characters from best to worst separated into several tiers... Even though MK might have enough of a reason as to be ahead of snake by a noticeable margin, he's still only 'the best character in the game', while Snake's still 'the second best character in the game'. If the list is supposed to group characters by how much better than the rest of the cast they are, wouldn't it be better to just group MK and Snake (as well as whatever other characters are unarguably 'best characters in the game') in the same tier, which would represent 'best characters in the game'?

Plus, adding an extra tier seems more like a cosmetic addition intended on singling out unique characters (like in other games, they'd single out the banned characters of the respective games). And as with cosmetic changes, they're unimportant to the practical part of projects, and are more geared towards improving on the viewer's experience.

 

[Shaya]

It's a tier list.
I've said this numerous times. Not an order list (this is only something that comes as a "result" of the voting). Characters were "ordered" only in the higher tiers and ONLY after their tier separations were created. Exception being MK who was initially tiered with Diddy and Snake early on in voting.

The fact that we have to order people from 1-x is a convention I'm not even in huge favour of, because it causes a ****fest like "ZOMG PIT" occurring.

I'll repeat, my aim for this tier list was to create accurate tiers. Snake is not far ahead enough in people's minds to be above everyone like MK, nor is diddy. Once you remove the tournament results of Ally and ADHD those characters have similar tournament results as the rest of A tier.

 

[Kewkky]

It's a tier list.
I've said this numerous times. Not an order list (this is only something that comes as a "result" of the voting). Characters were "ordered" only in the higher tiers and ONLY after their tier separations were created. Exception being MK who was initially tiered with Diddy and Snake early on in voting.

The fact that we have to order people from 1-x is a convention I'm not even in huge favour of, because it causes a ****fest like "ZOMG PIT" occurring.

I'll repeat, my aim for this tier list was to create accurate tiers. Snake is not far ahead enough in people's minds to be above everyone like MK, nor is diddy. Once you remove the tournament results of Ally and ADHD those characters have similar tournament results as the rest of A tier.

I wasn't talking about any character whose tier position was nebulous, I was talking about the obvious best characters. And I wasn't observing individual positions, instead I was pointing out why you wouldn't want to organize the tier list in a way that the best characters in the game were in the same tier.

And wouldn't you have to say that MK's tournament results are also due to the amount of people using him? As I recall, there's more successful MK mains than successful Snake mains at all levels of play due to the ease of use and all that whatnot, so it's only natural that his results would be ahead of the next in line.


(and don't worry, i'm not arguing against the fact, more like... Refreshing my knowledge, since no one really talks about these things around here and I just have to learn from the few moments they do.)

 

[Shaya]

You are essentially asking "Why not just bunch the best characters together" or "why are there tiers in the "upper levels" of a tier list".
The former is the reason tier lists are created... The best characters happen to have distinctions though, obvious ones. MK being distinctively above the rest was obvious to "us". The latter implication is just annoying me.

We split things like "High Tier", "Mid Tier" and "Low Tier" for a reason, if you want to imagine that there is no S,A,B and that High tier is all just meshed together with their orders, then do so.

 

[Kewkky]

Meh, should've guessed I would eventually receive that response... Can't get around that one.

 

[Shaya]

what response were you actually expecting though? I don't really understand.

 

[Kewkky]

what response were you actually expecting though? I don't really understand.

A sort-of personal view on why the need for a different kind of tierlist was eventually taken into account. What was the reason you decided to drop the whole high/mid/low formula and stick to letters? Given that in every other fighting game the same tierlist formula is still the high/mid/low one, of course. I'd imagine there was some sort of discussion about this matter... And in the other tier lists, giving a single character his own tier above the rest of the "best characters" generally implied a bannable/banned character was in the game, but in Brawl, the same people responsible for the tierlists don't believe that the one character separated into his own tier is bannable (overall).

So it's all tangled up to me.

 

[Justblaze647]

@ Kewkky

I think one of the main reasons the tier list was broken up into letters is because smash has so many variables, so much depth in terms of character potential and mu's. Things would get so confusing trying to sub-categorize Lucario into lower-mid-high tier or something like this. I think the letters help differentiate characters who are in the same tier, to avoid such delusions as Snake and Gaymanwatch being even because they're both high tier.

That, and the fact that tourney viability plays a big part in making the list. Characters who do well, or not as well, in their own tier get a boost if they play well against a higher tiered character... See Pit.

 

[Shaya]

but in Brawl, the same people responsible for the tierlists don't believe that the one character separated into his own tier is bannable (overall).

So it's all tangled up to me.

"Hello, Politics"

is all I can say.

Oh... you're complaining about naming conventions?
It's just... naming things...
really...
Could have A+, A, and A- for High tier, etc etc if we -really- wanted to.
Or call it Top Tier, Upper High, High Tier, Lower High, whatever.
It's just a NAME Aesthetics at best.

 

[Browny]

I prefer Super Saiyan and Ganon tiers tbh

 

[Justblaze647]

DJ be trollin'

 

[Kewkky]

Eh, no, i wasn't complaining about how you guys named the tiers... : |

Let's see if I can explain it a bit better... When we look at this lettered tier list, it's S, A, B, C, D, E, F, G. MK is alone in S, there's a couple of characters in A, another couple in B, etc etc etc.... But when we group them into top/high/mid/low/bottom, MK now joins in on the category people refer to as 'top' (I see it as an even more diversifying method of making tier lists, using letters and all). That's what I've been told, and what I have read around the forums: MK is top tier, Snake is top tier, Diddy is top tier, etc etc etc... (I expand on this in my last paragraph)

So, if this is true, why is MK alone in S tier? Why not group the best characters together as the best characters, like it was done with the high/mid/low formula?

Upper top, mid top, low top... Never heard those before. Why overcomplicate things and diversify the list even more? It's all just cosmetic changes as far as I can see... What is its purpose, above the whole traditional formula? Why not just keep it a simple, traditional tierlist with just enough divisions to diversify the groups between "best", "above average", "average", "below average" and "bottom"? In a traditional tierlist, the fact that one character had a tier all to himself implied that he was bannable/is banned, but clearly as the same people responsible for this tierlist have shown, MK is not one of these cases. So why not lump him together with the rest of the best characters in the official list?


I see you have them also separated by high/mid/low... But is MK the only true top tier character in the game? What happened between the previous iterations of the tier lists that made MK knock them off top tier status? As far as I can see Snake also belongs in top tier, since he's a nice step ahead of other characters in his 'tier(s)'. Why is he not in top tier and instead in high? And if MK would have to be given his own tier, why make top tier his own, instead of the traditional god tier? Best explanation I could find around was this one., and I somehow can't believe MK is the only 'top' tier in the game, when (an)other dominant character/s in the game are advantaged in results and unbalanced over the rest of the others (like Snake to the rest of high tier as well, for example, and he's the cemented 2nd best character in the game).

 

[Shaya]

People consider snake's advantages more "closer" to the rest of A tier. Even though he and Diddy were placed in a tier above earlier on in the process (along with MK).

Mk is the only top tier in this game, yes.

Perception of the game changes, process of identifying the tier list changes.

 

[Blacknight99923]

everyone else in high tier bar IC goes even or beats snake iirc