The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle by himself would be in C tier with Ton Link, Kirby, Rob.

Youuuuuu are silly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Squirtle is amazing by himself, high tier easy.

 

[Kofu]

Squirtle has a mediocre recovery, bad range, and has trouble killing.
Maybe C tier, maybe not.

 

[Purple]

Squirtle is ridiculous.

If reflex was to just switch to squirtle for every stock, he would play so much better.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle is ridiculous.

If reflex was to just switch to squirtle for every stock, he would play so much better.

My older brother keeps trying to convince me to do that. :/

 

[Kofu]

Doesn't Stamina not completely recover, even after a stock loss though?

 

[Purple]

My older brother keeps trying to convince me to do that. :/

The character recovers after a switch, am I right reflex?

Come on! Try it at one of the Waba tournies!!

 

[bigman40]

It takes time for each character to recover after being switched. Even if he stayed Squirtle all the time, it would probably hinder him more since killing would be a major issue when being fatigued.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doesn't Stamina not completely recover, even after a stock loss though?

The character recovers after a switch, am I right reflex?

Come on! Try it at one of the Waba tournies!!

If you're KO'd, the KO'd Pokémon goes to 30% of its current amount of fatigue automatically, and every one second spent in the Pokéball is two seconds off the fatigue amount. It's actually very doable if you can switch relatively safely.

Maybe I'll give it a shot sometime.

 

[Shaya]

If only ivy/zard had a reliable way of stalling/planking.

Then PT would be devastating on smashville. lololol.

Squirtle is a GOOD character, but if he was by himself I'm still not sure he'd be higher than C tier. Squirtle is not as good at avoiding the grab as Wario... and well... dies to most of the case when he does. And loses individually to every S/A Tier (maybe not ICs, and maybe even with D3; but squirts rolls are pretty bad and he will never kill dedede ever anyway)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If only ivy/zard had a reliable way of stalling/planking.

Then PT would be devastating on smashville. lololol.

Squirtle is a GOOD character, but if he was by himself I'm still not sure he'd be higher than C tier. Squirtle is not as good at avoiding the grab as Wario... and well... dies to most of the case when he does. And loses individually to every S/A Tier (maybe not ICs, and maybe even with D3; but squirts rolls are pretty bad and he will never kill dedede ever anyway)

I think you are vastly underestimating Squirtle's ability to avoid grabs, but it isn't like there's really much else I can say on the subject. His aerial mobility and poking moves are really amazing.

 

[Shaya]

Squirtle doesn't have vertical aerial prowess like Wario. He doesn't have an aerial grab either which ***** people attempting to remain in shield. Whilst his aerials well spaced and fast falled are able to avoid being grabbed, his aerial mobility and acceleration gives him a lot less freedom in avoiding such things.

Pivot grabs outrange/disjoint his aerial move set.
I play Marth, I'm biased.

I do however get to play against someone who mained PT, and have done for a very long time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle doesn't have vertical aerial prowess like Wario. He doesn't have an aerial grab either which ***** people attempting to remain in shield. Whilst his aerials well spaced and fast falled are able to avoid being grabbed, his aerial mobility and acceleration gives him a lot less freedom in avoiding such things.

Pivot grabs outrange/disjoint his aerial move set.
I play Marth, I'm biased.

I do however get to play against someone who mained PT, and have done for a very long time.

Can't argue with some of it. Squirtle's set of aerials are arguably better for comboing, but definitely not for approaching, and definitely not for playing defensively (the latter being the most comfortable place in this game), though Wario excels at juggling mainly because of his ridiculous horizontal aerial acceleration.

Aerial grabs are AMAZING, and that's easily one of Wario's best traits.

I'm not sure about his pivot grab, but isn't Squirtle's standing grab about the same range as Marth's? It's pretty large, and it's nice, as is Wario's.

However, I think Squirtle's ground game has a lot of untapped potential--His godly F-Tilt, frame 1 Jab, and many options to change movement and positioning (shellstalling, hydrojab, hydrograb, the ability to start moving in the original direction immediately after shellshifting, Water Gun, PIVOT B-AIR, true hydroplaning) should be able to let him camp on the ground with the best (except for against, like, Snake, but you can just air camp him, really).

Since I'm done with school for the summer, I plan on getting all of this stuff down to a science, and I'll really be able to showcase Squirtle's potential. Mobility is soooooo important in this game.

 

[Shaya]

Squirtle's ftilt, in my humble opinion,
is up there with the most broken moves in the game before B tier.

It's stupid.
Really really stupid.
Like honestly, so god **** stupid it makes me rage using anyone without a sword.
I've been practising Fox for middle tier stuff, and honestly... Fox doesn't have anything long ranged/fast enough to beat Squirtle's ftilt on the ground... It's ... infuriating.

Squirtle has slightly longer grab range than Marth. I'm talking about other characters pivot grabbing squirtles aerials IIRC, Marth's pivot grab is longer than squirts though.

And when I meant vertical prowress, I mean that Wario has an amazing dair and nair that he can fast fall from above a player with much success. Squirtle's nair (dair fast fall = grab) is not up to scratch.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I do know that Squirtle has a very good pivot grab, as I have been the victim of it all too much. :-S

To be fair, Squirtle is more likely to combo a weak fair into ground moves, or bair. Both can be placed so they are safe on shield, too.

 

[Purple]

Squirtle's ftilt, in my humble opinion,
is up there with the most broken moves in the game before B tier.

It's stupid.
Really really stupid.
Like honestly, so god **** stupid it makes me rage using anyone without a sword.
I've been practising Fox for middle tier stuff, and honestly... Fox doesn't have anything long ranged/fast enough to beat Squirtle's ftilt on the ground... It's ... infuriating.

Squirtle has slightly longer grab range than Marth. I'm talking about other characters pivot grabbing squirtles aerials IIRC, Marth's pivot grab is longer than squirts though.

And when I meant vertical prowress, I mean that Wario has an amazing dair and nair that he can fast fall from above a player with much success. Squirtle's nair (dair fast fall = grab) is not up to scratch.

I agree, but Squirtle doesn't have the same grab release weaknesses that Wario has does he?

 

[Shaya]

I agree, but Squirtle doesn't have the same grab release weaknesses that Wario has does he?

Do you know anything about Squirtle at all?

HE HAS A WORSE GRAB RELEASE WEAKNESS.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Jab > Squirtle's Ftilt. :D

And indeed, Squirtle's grab release is worse then Wario's. Can you say "hello, now that I've grabbed you, I'm walking you across the stage and because you choose Castle Siege and this is the second part, you're now dead"?.

But in all seriousness: you can land more stuff out of Squirtle's grab release animation then Wario's.

Overall, he would be a C/bottom of B character. He's like Wario...but overall worse. Less mobility, an even worse grab release animation, no command grab but instead a very situational water gun, less KOing power, a weaker recovery, ect in exchange for a better jab, ftilt, Usmash, Dthrow, and some funny shell shifting stuff.

 

[Purple]

Do you know anything about Squirtle at all?

HE HAS A WORSE GRAB RELEASE WEAKNESS.

I asked a question actually, I didn't make a statement T_T. But upon thinking about it, I remember Chaz grab releasing to d-airing reflex's squirtle in tournament

 

[Z'zgashi]

Out of curiosity, what does ivy have? I really do like her bair and nair, plus a decent projectile, but thats all i could see in her

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The projectile is trash. Too much start up, not enough range, not enough knockback, hitstun, or damage.

Ivy has Bair, a situational Uair/Usmash/Neutral B, a decent grab range...and that's basically it. She would probably be in Hyrule tier if she was her own character. She's be the mascot/pet of that tier. :D

 

[.Marik]

Yoshi has a good mu on snake and wario, beats ICies, and does better than most against mk (we have a cg -> fair spike, plus we can grab him outta whorenado well). The only top tier that gives him real problems is marth. He also doms most low tiers.

LOL.

So much Mmac theorycrafting.

 

[YagamiLight]

Let's not underrate Ivysaur here. It (gender?) has a somewhat decent spacing game coupled with a projectile that, while incredibly inferior to many others, allows it to keep opponents at an optimal distance. Coupled with high damage racking possibilities and nifty KO options Ivysaur's not exactly terrible.

That said, I can't exactly tell you who Ivysaur would be better than on the current tier list. Ganondorf and maybe Link, I guess. I don't think Ivysaur is better than Zelda (although I maintain that Zelda was the victim of a hype train in the first place). It's all theory anyway, considering you can't play as just Ivysaur.

 

[Z'zgashi]

LOL.

So much Mmac theorycrafting.

I know isnt it great :D

Also yagami, its a girl. In the game pokemon have different looks depending on gender and the brawl ivy has the female look

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Let's not underrate Ivysaur here. It (gender?)--

She.

Out of curiosity, what does ivy have? I really do like her bair and nair, plus a decent projectile, but thats all i could see in her

N-Air is a rather good move. Solid damage, can lead into itself, has a nasty spike, and causes a rock-paper-scissors game if you land behind an opponent's shield (unless they have an amazing OoS attack) as a result of Bullet Seed and Ivysaur's spotdodge.

U-Air pushes people back on shield, ends relatively quickly when landing, and is powerful.

D-Air can be canceled early if done immediately below platforms to be rather safe.

Razor Leaf is good for forcing the opponent to move where you want them to. Cooldown isn't terrible. Though it's definitely punishable, smart use of it is very helpful, especially if the opponent isn't incredibly aggressive. It's good for conditioning people to act a certain way.

Otherwise, Ivysaur's pokes are good at specific things (F-Tilt for shieldstab, B-Air/D-Tilt with the double-hit, F-Smash for the sudden stretch) but are unsafe if the opponent sees any of them coming. It's possible to make Ivysaur work, but you really have to make your opponent a puppet. Thankfully, Ivysaur has the tools to do that in many matchups if you can outsmart the opponent.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ivysaur is bottom tier, as bad as Ganon IMO. Awful, awful character.

I think Charizard is pretty bad, too; there's this idea people have that he's good but I don't really see it. Good Charizards pretty much get 0-deathed by equally skilled players every time they switch to him unless they get a lucky rock smash. CHarizard gets points for having a really cool ftilt, fair, and dthrow though.

 

[Kole]

i don't think she's quite as bad as ganon...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

i don't think she's quite as bad as ganon...

Top of G tier.

AKA: Not much better.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

At least Ganon has useful gimmicks and can recover when below the stage.

Ivysaur's moves don't even properly string together, it's like a slow, semi-powerful (in terms of damage) mish mash of bad ideas. In order to win with Ivysaur you have to poke at your opponent in this awkward way that isn't at all good or powerful, and she can't even really force approaches to make up for it.

SoPo has strong chaingrabs. Ganon has strong movestrings, a great tech chase, and can get an early kill on a good read. I'm not even really sure Ivy can do that and she's weak to fire attacks (lol). I thinks she's probably the worst character in the game.

 

[stingers]

lol. ivy has nair and bullet seed. that alone makes her better than ganon. way to accentuate the good points of characters you want to be better then ivy and the bad points of ivy herself...real smart debating ^5

 

[Espy Rose]

He also forgot to mention Charizard's beastly dtilt.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol. ivy has nair and bullet seed. that alone makes her better than ganon. way to accentuate the good points of characters you want to be better then ivy and the bad points of ivy herself...real smart debating ^5

Bullet Seed is a bad move. Anyone good SDIs out of it before they take 10% damage. Nair is a good move but Ganon has good moves, too, hell, moves that are better than Ivy's nair. And he can recover from below the stage. That's a pretty big deal.

Also, I was stating an opinion and not debating.

 

[stingers]

Anyone good SDIs out of it before they take 10% damage.

no...no that doesnt really happen actually. people say that but it's not true lol

well i guess if you hit them with the very top part it's true. but normally you land bullet seed when they just space bad and land next to you and thats normally 20%. and if you get them to airdodge on top of you and you land the initial stream without popping them into it...its like 40.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

no...no that doesnt really happen actually. people say that but it's not true lol

Doesn't matter more where they get hit? It's possible to SDI on the first hit in a way to avoid most of the damage IIRC.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

no...no that doesnt really happen actually. people say that but it's not true lol

well i guess if you hit them with the very top part it's true. but normally you land bullet seed when they just space bad and land next to you and thats normally 20%. and if you get them to airdodge on top of you and you land the initial stream without popping them into it...its like 40.

Um, I have terrible reaction speeds and while i don't know any like amazing PT players I can't say I've ever taken more than 10 or 15% from Bullet Seed. Plus, it's kind of a pain in the *** to land the move to begin with.

Doesn't matter more where they get hit? It's possible to SDI on the first hit in a way to avoid most of the damage IIRC.

Also this

The worst part about Ivysaur isn't even that Ivysaur is a bad (terrible) character, it's that Ivysaur is part of a character that has two options (Squirtle and Zard) who are almost always better between the two of them. There is almost never a situation in a high-level match-up where a PT player thinks "if only I had a second to switch to Ivysaur." The only time PT players should use her is when they can't get a switch without taking unnecessary damage or she's stock-tanking after you get a lucky KO with her (which shouldn't really happen because of reason #1).

 

[Purple]

lol. ivy has nair and bullet seed. that alone makes her better than ganon. way to accentuate the good points of characters you want to be better then ivy and the bad points of ivy herself...real smart debating ^5

Be nice NC scum

Spoiler

But he is right, you showed a large bit of bias in your posts, also considering probably don't use either character tournament wise, it would be best not to make assumptions on them unless you're willing to be corrected.

Also NC is really cool and a nice community, I should go back there sometime.

On that note, I don't think Ivysaur is so bad, I don't have any good points besides what Reflex has said.

 

[stingers]

yeah they can DI the "pop-up" as I call it and totally avoid it. but its much in the same way you'd DI um...pit's utilt pop-up. mostly just prediction when you think they're gonna do it and not reaction because it's so fast. which is actually really important because ivy has a decent mix up game at close range like that (fyi lol)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ivysaur is bottom tier, as bad as Ganon IMO. Awful, awful character.

I think Charizard is pretty bad, too; there's this idea people have that he's good but I don't really see it. Good Charizards pretty much get 0-deathed by equally skilled players every time they switch to him unless they get a lucky rock smash. CHarizard gets points for having a really cool ftilt, fair, and dthrow though.

Careful rise your ignorance is showing. If you're going to talk about a character please know at least the very basics of the character. I would advice you to watch Reflex play then talk about the different things Charizard or Ivysaur can do until then you're just blowing smoke.

 

[stingers]

ivy is actually my favorite to use against ike, so you're wrong again rise... but i'm sure reflex would know alot more about which pokemon to use in which matchup...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Careful rise your ignorance is showing. If you're going to talk about a character please know at least the very basics of the character. I would advice you to watch Reflex play then talk about the different things Charizard or Ivysaur can do until then you're just blowing smoke.

Charizard is good in mid-level play or when the opponent doesn't know how to fight one, that's it.