The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[GHNeko]

Ah. I see. well, if its MK specifc. I guess. Im on the fence about that.

 

[Yanoss1313]

No. You have inv. frames if you grab the ledge once. Then if you drop it and grab it again, you'll have no inv. frames. If you get hit or land and grab it again, you'll have your inv. frames back.

This doesn't hurt recoveries and kills planking. Where's the problem?

i believe it was a misinterpretation. (never realized how needlessly long that word is >.<)

Edit: lol, never mind

 

[MagmarFire]

Then you might as well say, "Hasta la vista!" to Zair Edgeguarding. I think that can still be a viable option for some characters, and for those like Link, it would only hurt him.

EDIT: Wait, forget what I said. Bad timing and misinterpretation. My bad. >_<

 

[Yanoss1313]

Then you might as well say, "Hasta la vista!" to Zair Edgeguarding. I think that can still be a viable option for some characters, and for those like Link, it would only hurt him.

EDIT: Wait, forget what I said. Bad timing and misinterpretation. My bad. >_<

that word again, it's so looong! >.<.... yeah, i'm bored

 

[goodoldganon]

You make it sound like it would be so detrimental to the game!

I think it would hurt balance pretty heavily...yes. It just depends on how you look at it. I could see it being a great change for people with good SH'd aerials and shield grabs. I think it could make matches amongst those characters even faster. On the other hand, let's look at Ganondorf. He has THE WORST shield grab range in the game, jumps pretty slowly, and already has a terrible time dealing with pressure. Once again, I'm willing to listen to suggestions to 'fix' shield camping problems. I for one think the original shield damage buffs and slower regenerating shields were fine. Kept powerful OoS options but you couldn't rely on them a whole match. You had to go on the offense at least once and a while.

Figured I'd edit this:

So what do you guys think? Make shields take more damage and regenerate a little more slowly? The problems were Marth and his shield breaker, Jigglypuff was a monster shield breaker, and Jigglypuff always dying after a break. So what do you guys think?

 

[Kuga]

Stop buffing Falco,he has t3h l4z0rz!!1!
LOL

 

[Plum]

I think it would hurt balance pretty heavily...yes. It just depends on how you look at it. I could see it being a great change for people with good SH'd aerials and shield grabs. I think it could make matches amongst those characters even faster. On the other hand, let's look at Ganondorf. He has THE WORST shield grab range in the game, jumps pretty slowly, and already has a terrible time dealing with pressure. Once again, I'm willing to listen to suggestions to 'fix' shield camping problems. I for one think the original shield damage buffs and slower regenerating shields were fine. Kept powerful OoS options but you couldn't rely on them a whole match. You had to go on the offense at least once and a while.

Figured I'd edit this:

So what do you guys think? Make shields take more damage and regenerate a little more slowly? The problems were Marth and his shield breaker, Jigglypuff was a monster shield breaker, and Jigglypuff always dying after a break. So what do you guys think?

I like that idea.

Those problems can all be fixed by finding the right value that doesn't allow them to break shields so early. Marth's shield breaker takes 80% of a shield away at any charge besides full IIRC, so you can judge from there about where it should be. Jiggly pressuring the shield into Rest would still be an issue I would think though. Maybe lessen the time you are stuck in the shield break animation if possible?

I don't see what can be done that doesn't have some sort of balance issue, but this is definitely my favorite suggestion so far. Slowing down shield drop rate just screws over some characters.

 

[kupo15]

I think it would hurt balance pretty heavily...yes. It just depends on how you look at it. I could see it being a great change for people with good SH'd aerials and shield grabs. I think it could make matches amongst those characters even faster. On the other hand, let's look at Ganondorf. He has THE WORST shield grab range in the game, jumps pretty slowly, and already has a terrible time dealing with pressure. Once again, I'm willing to listen to suggestions to 'fix' shield camping problems. I for one think the original shield damage buffs and slower regenerating shields were fine. Kept powerful OoS options but you couldn't rely on them a whole match. You had to go on the offense at least once and a while.

Figured I'd edit this:

So what do you guys think? Make shields take more damage and regenerate a little more slowly? The problems were Marth and his shield breaker, Jigglypuff was a monster shield breaker, and Jigglypuff always dying after a break. So what do you guys think?

I really don't understand where your balance concern comes from. It won't affect OOS options like grabbing or jumping out at or side steps or rolls at all. The only thing it limits is the fact that you won't be able to shield someone while backfacing them and be able to turnaround and punish. It will make shielding less camp happy because you are only limited to your OOS options. So it basically punishes people that can't fight well without using their shield as a crutch.

Oh and by the way, its funny how you mention the problem of marth's shield breaker with the shield damage when I believe someone told me that a fully charged shield breaker currently doesn't break a shield.

 

[JCaesar]

I agree that punishing OoS is very strong but everyone does have at least a few safe moves. We have to be careful about how we 'fix' this. (Fix meaning I don't think it's a problem) Some characters don't have options if we go about about with your proposed fix. I mean ya, Snake could probably stay usable but Yoshi and Link would fall...hard! Right now it requires you to make perfect and very smart approaches to break a shield camper but it is doable and when you do you are heavily rewarded.

Yoshi is already super screwed by the current system. I just tested something. If Yoshi is standing next to a wall and Kirby is on the other side, and Yoshi shields and Kirby holds A to jab (I tested Pika too, works the same), Yoshi's shield breaks every time and there's nothing he can do about it. That seems like too much shieldstun to me.

But how would you balance reduced shieldstun? The best way IMO is increased shield drop lag. That way, OOS stuff takes about the same time, but under high-shieldpressure moves like Kirby's jab or Lucas's nair, Yoshi and other characters could actually do something. If anything, it makes it possible to punish "safer" attacks, since characters would be able to shieldgrab or jump OOS sooner than they can now.

Also, Link's nair OOS is fantastic.

 

[Plum]

I really don't understand where your balance concern comes from. It won't affect OOS options like grabbing or jumping out at or side steps or rolls at all. The only thing it limits is the fact that you won't be able to shield someone while backfacing them and be able to turnaround and punish. It will make shielding less camp happy because you are only limited to your OOS options. So it basically punishes people that can't fight well without using their shield as a crutch.

Oh and by the way, its funny how you mention the problem of marth's shield breaker with the shield damage when I believe someone told me that a fully charged shield breaker currently doesn't break a shield.

Why should my character be specifically punished for not having a viable way to punish outside of dropping the shield and attacking?

Link for instance has a bad grab, bad grab game, and poor aerials. Things like this will target certain characters for unnecessary nerfs while others remain non affected because they have other methods besides dropping a shield and attacking.
So if you rely on your shield too much then you will be punished, but it also punishes characters who lose whatever OOS options they have now.

 

[Magus420]

Yoshi's shield breaks every time and there's nothing he can do about it.

Did they remove shield SDI? If you still can then you should be able to SDI into them to push them away from the wall like you would to escape normal wall jab infinites.

edit: magus, your avatar is pro

+rep. lol

 

[leafgreen386]

Why should my character be specifically punished for not having a viable way to punish outside of dropping the shield and attacking?

Link for instance has a bad grab, bad grab game, and poor aerials. Things like this will target certain characters for unnecessary nerfs while others remain non affected because they have other methods besides dropping a shield and attacking.
So if you rely on your shield too much then you will be punished, but it also punishes characters who lose whatever OOS options they have now.

Well, nearly every change we've implemented so far has required some counter-code to rectify the problems that the new code creates. I don't see what's so bad about having to reevaluate some characters' OOS options if this change gets implemented.

edit: magus, your avatar is pro

 

[VietGeek]

Sorry to...interrupt this discussion...but regarding the fallspecial mod...

Lucario is suppose to be able to do two Extremespeeds in a row if he does the 1st one drectly from the ground...right?

 

[leafgreen386]

Sorry to...interrupt this discussion...but regarding the fallspecial mod...

Lucario is suppose to be able to do two Extremespeeds in a row if he does the 1st one drectly from the ground...right?

Yes. If he did a upB from the ground in vb and did a wallcling, he could still upB after the wallcling (doing an upB from the air into a wallcling would not enable you to upB again). Since all the code does is cancel the special fall in a different way, that "restriction" still exists.

 

[Plum]

Sorry to...interrupt this discussion...but regarding the fallspecial mod...

Lucario is suppose to be able to do two Extremespeeds in a row if he does the 1st one drectly from the ground...right?

I don't know if it was on purpose, but I love it. Flying off the stage quickly at whatever weird angle your opponent is trying to recover at, knock them away and snap back to the ledge.
Too much fun

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't see the reason to change all the OoS options, that's why. By changing OoS options we are LIMITING options. We are limiting most characters to grab or SHFF aerials. Right now most characters have a large chunk of their moveset available to them. It's like people feel by making the approach they should have most of the advantages.

With my suggestions we leave the options but make shielding more of a choice. Most characters will be able to quickly pressure a shield down and poke through it.

 

[kupo15]

I don't see the reason to change all the OoS options, that's why. By changing OoS options we are LIMITING options. We are limiting most characters to grab or SHFF aerials. Right now most characters have a large chunk of their moveset available to them. It's like people feel by making the approach they should have most of the advantages.

With my suggestions we leave the options but make shielding more of a choice. Most characters will be able to quickly pressure a shield down and poke through it.

So you are deciding to pick and choose which characters get more shield drop lag then others? Sounds like a bad idea to me. Shield abuse should be punishable but shielding is still too safe. Adding shield drop lag will improve the overall speed of the game because you have less people camping inside their shield as an excellent form of defense. Plus, if you reduce shield stun anymore, then I think they will be no different than vbrawl shields so you need to compensate it with more shield drop lag. Shielding can still be a good form of defense, but shouldn't be this good at defense.

 

[Sukai]

Shielding is just fine, it serves it's purpose, to guard attacks, don't mod it please.
Shield camping should never be a concern, the player should learn to mix it up, bait them into or out of a shield to suit your advantage, or grab them.
It's impossible to take every bad part out of the game, like Yoshi's shield issues, that problem is easily solved by banning it in a competitive enviornment, or limiting it's exploitation. It okay to leave some perks in, makes the game more fun, and no smash game is without them. Let tactics grow and establish, I'm sure in due time a work around can be discovered. There will always be things to nitpick at and you can't please them all.

 

[goodoldganon]

So you are deciding to pick and choose which characters get more shield drop lag then others?

No, I have no idea where you got that idea.

Sounds like a bad idea to me.

Least we can agreed here.

Shield abuse should be punishable but shielding is still too safe.

Over-shielding is punishable just grab. Smart use of the shield is debatable.

Adding shield drop lag will improve the overall speed of the game because you have less people camping inside their shield as an excellent form of defense.

While also ruining some peoples games. I really don't even see how you can't get this. We are going to remove options from characters that don't need those options gone.

Plus, if you reduce shield stun anymore, then I think they will be no different than vbrawl shields so you need to compensate it with more shield drop lag. Shielding can still be a good form of defense, but shouldn't be this good at defense.

I think the shield is still really strong but it is certainly beatable. Even if it might be too strong, when you do beat it the rewards are typically huge. I just am flabbergasted that people can't see adding the amounts of shield drop lag you guys are talking about would be a poor idea. I can't dash in, shield their attack, and counterattack appropriately. Characters lose the bread and butter of their game (Snake's Nade Dropping and Tilts come to mind.) Some characters become significantly worse. What do you propose Ganondorf does with a larger shield drop time? Ganondorf already can barely deal with pressure and now you want to hinder him more? He will lose his jab OoS which would be massive.

People need to stop thinking just about their own character and see the great picture on what these changes would do. Just because Captain Falcon or Fox could be able to function well with these changes doesn't mean they need to go through.

Adding shield damage would require smart use of the shield since 'hiding' in them would quickly get them worn down. I'm loosing my train of thought so I'm gonna go find something else to do.


EDIT: Good post Knux. It seems as soon as a tactic is discovered or used and people can't find an immediate way around it it is considered OP and needs to be addressed.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Shielding is just fine, it serves it's purpose, to guard attacks, don't mod it please.
Shield camping should never be a concern, the player should learn to mix it up, bait them into or out of a shield to suit your advantage, or grab them.
It's impossible to take every bad part out of the game, like Yoshi's shield issues, that problem is easily solved by banning it in a competitive enviornment, or limiting it's exploitation. It okay to leave some perks in, makes the game more fun, and no smash game is without them. Let tactics grow and establish, I'm sure in due time a work around can be discovered. There will always be things to nitpick at and you can't please them all.

i totally agree with you here ^.^

 

[_Yes!_]

I was talking about the 5-1 codeset, the latest one.

For everyone's reference:
Shield stun: The lag you get stuck in when an attack hits your shield and you can't do anything, even grab.
Shield drop: The lag you get when you just let your shield go normally. It was very short in vBrawl, and long in Melee, and is somewhere in the middle now, toward the shorter end. This lag does not apply to shieldgrabbing or jumping OOS, because you don't actually drop your shield to do these.

You couldn't shield drop -> punish anything in Melee, but shieldgrabbing and SH aerials OOS worked just fine for punishment. In vBrawl, and to a lesser extent in Brawl+, people rely on shield dropping to punish everything, and to do things like nade camp with Snake, and to dash cancel. But in Brawl+ you can dash cancel with crouch, so it's not as big of a deal for that aspect. Adding more shield drop lag would definitely change the way you have to play, and you would have to use more aerials OOS instead of shield drop -> ftilt or whatever, but I personally think that would be a good change.

Don't add shield drop lag. Slowing down the game isn't going to make it better.

It is so easy to see coming that it really doesn't need any nerf IMO.

If he is gliding, then he HAS to use his glide attack when he gets to the ground no exceptions. It is easy to just shield and punish with a little practice.
The issue is more of his grounded Up B because it goes through anything, but again the predictability is key with it because although the invincibility frames on the ground allow it to essentially go through anything it is a fairly situational move because it gets easy to punish when you know what you are doing. Sidestep and shield the glide attack and punish, or really whatever.

I don't know how everyone feels, but IMO MK needs no more nerfs. He is easy to combo with his horrible aerial movement, and he is so light weight that he dies earlier. He also doesn't kill as early as in vBrawl outside of gimps. He has some great combo ability and he is easily among the best gimpers in the game, but the Brawl + physics already balance him out. He had flaws that couldn't be exploited in vBrawl but the tweaks to the physics have allowed characters to abuse his weakpoints such as no way of dealing with projectiles.

MK needs more nerfs.

MK's Glair is too good X__X

Is it, dare I say........broken?

Yes it is.

Not broken. Lol.

Try to fight Teh_Spamerer's MK

Should have specified perfect shielding then. Either way, it is so predictable because it is guaranteed to happen when he uses an Up B. Learning to perfect shield and grab him out of it or whatever your fastest option makes using Up B more dangerous to MK than you.

I don't like the Uair nerf, because it hurts his combo game. In an attempt to take away one aspect it ends up taking away more than necessary. Some are going to sit and complain about how broken he still is and how that it hurts his combo game is a good thing. He really isn't at the same level in vBrawl and that is obvious. For all we know he isn't even the best character anymore, and even if he is it is by a much smaller margin. Outside of gimping it is hard to kill with him, he is easy to combo with his lack of mobility, he is light, and has trouble with projectiles. Learn to abuse that, and deal with the fact that he is still a good character.

Really, at this point I'm going to say that any nerf to MK is just unneeded. At the very least, let matchups develop before more changes happen to him. For all we know a counter already exists and the matchup just needs a little more looking into to find it.

MK needs to be nerfed more. He's still broken.

perfect shield reflecting. amirite?

I hope you're joking.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I hope you're joking.

agreed, especially considering how **** easy it is to perfect shield projectiles, even with the 2 frame window, i still consistently perfect shield almost everything aimed my way.

PS: woot, 100 posts!

 

[_Yes!_]

Also...I just remembered seeing something somewhat questionable last weekend.

It was a Captain Falcon vs Wario matchup. There was a unique zero to death combo on the falcon done by the wario.

Grab ---> dthrow (repeated until 30something%)---> upthrow ---> fart KO?

I was also told this works on fast fallers, and that there is no DI whatsoever that can save you. Really guys? Can this get fixed please?

 

[Plum]

MK needs more nerfs.

I hope your joking.

MK's obvious character weaknesses can be abused now. This is something that you cannot deny, because it is a fact that the physics of Brawl+ allow his weaknesses to be actual weaknesses.

There are characters around the board that can abuse them.

Maybe you main Captain Falcon, well sorry if he isn't one of them, that doesn't mean MK needs more nerfs. Falcon is easy to combo, easy to gimp, and has poor priority which still makes MK a tough battle for him. That doesn't mean every character is in the same situation.

Wario went even with MK in vBrawl, and now he might even have the advantage. MK will have a hard time keeping up with Wario's aerial momentum while having a hard time comboing such a floaty character. Wario on the other hand can combo MK and kills him so much earlier that MK can kill him.

Someone like Samus can abuse his lack of options against projectiles and keep him away while building up damage.

Jiggly won't be combod while Rest gives her such insane early kills against MK.

Marth has the advantage onstage with the longer sword. If he stays on stage then he might have the advantage.

Same could be said about Snake. Stay onstage and keep away from the ledge and your chances go way up.

That is coming from my own experience and there might be more I'm missing.

MK isn't broken... Maybe you fight Spam, and that doesn't mean that MK is broken. It just means that Spam is really good. And we all know that he is. Top players could use any character and make them look too good. That is why they are top players.

He can't kill on stage, he gets combod because he isn't floaty at all, he is light, he often has trouble following up in the air because of his poor horizontal movement, and he can't deal with projectiles effectively. Not every character is meant to be able to counter MK, that is the beauty of Smash. I'm confident in saying that MK doesn't break the counterpick system anymore like he did in vBrawl.

Edit:

Also...I just remembered seeing something somewhat questionable last weekend.

It was a Captain Falcon vs Wario matchup. There was a unique zero to death combo on the falcon done by the wario.

Grab ---> dthrow (repeated until 30something%)---> upthrow ---> fart KO?

I was also told this works on fast fallers, and that there is no DI whatsoever that can save you. Really guys? Can this get fixed please?

Wario's CG only works on fast fallers and the 2 heaviest characters in the game. It is something that only affects a few characters and doesn't really make the matches unplayable, because it only gets like 40%. I don't have my Wii to test it out but the Waft doesn't even kill the lightest characters until like 50% with no DI. With DI you should be able to survive that.
Even if that is legit, that is so situational it isn't funny. The Waft is at max power at like 1 minute and 50 seconds, so you would have to have such perfect timing on the Waft for that to have a chance to kill, and the opponent would have to have just lost a stock for the CG to work. My thoughts is that you should be able to DI the Uthrow, and even if the Waft connected it shouldn't kill that early on the characters the CG works on, especially with DI.

 

[Eaode]

waft has full KO potential at 55 seconds (half charge) full charge does ****loads of damage but not as much KB

The point still stands though that it's so situational that we don't need to worry about it.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Marth has the advantage onstage with the longer sword. If he stays on stage then he might have the advantage.

I'm sorry, but what the ****?!

 

[Plum]

I'm sorry, but what the ****?!

Longer sword meaning he outspaces MK.
Could have been clearer with that one. Marth could potentially stand his ground on the stage for the match, and not let his recovery become an issue.
Just theory crafting, but Marth's ability to constantly outrange MK on stage could give him a similar matchup to Snake. In the sense that if he stays on stage the matchup could lean towards his advantage.

waft has full KO potential at 55 seconds (half charge) full charge does ****loads of damage but not as much KB

The point still stands though that it's so situational that we don't need to worry about it.

Charge Time…..Mario KO% (at the center of FD with no DI)
0:56…..………..187 (Useless)
0:58…..………..98
1:00…..………..95
1:05…..………..92
1:10…..………..85
1:15…..………..81
1:20…..………..76
1:25…..………..72
1:30…..………..67
1:35…..………..62
1:40…..………..60
1:45…..………..55
1:50…..………..52
Full…..………...96

Taken from the Wario frame data thread, but yeah. Really the odds of that combo happening are just silly.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Longer sword meaning he outspaces MK.
Could have been clearer with that one. Marth could potentially stand his ground on the stage for the match, and not let his recovery become an issue.
Just theory crafting, but Marth's ability to constantly outrange MK on stage could give him a similar matchup to Snake. In the sense that if he stays on stage the matchup could lean towards his advantage.

MK penetrates Marth's zone with ease.
His sword is almost as long as Marth's. Plus his ground game AND aerial game are better than Marth's. And he's much faster, has barely any lag for any attack (despite the fact that he has been nerfed). If range was enough to justify match-ups, Ike would own Marth. Which is not the case.

I'm not trying to defend MK. But your statement is just so wrong.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Snake's tilts are fine now.

I see you lowered the knockback growth of the last strike of his dair.I thought the point of his dair was to punish foolishness. I though the power was there to compensate for the lack of range, prority, and ease of use. I feel that 50 is too low if the original is 100. I think 70 is a more appropriate number.

Is there a way you can fix the cypher grab issue(when foes litterally grab the cypher to end Snake's acsent?)

 

[Eaode]

Longer sword meaning he outspaces MK.
Could have been clearer with that one. Marth could potentially stand his ground on the stage for the match, and not let his recovery become an issue.
Just theory crafting, but Marth's ability to constantly outrange MK on stage could give him a similar matchup to Snake. In the sense that if he stays on stage the matchup could lean towards his advantage.



Charge Time…..Mario KO% (at the center of FD with no DI)
0:56…..………..187 (Useless)
0:58…..………..98
1:00…..………..95
1:05…..………..92
1:10…..………..85
1:15…..………..81
1:20…..………..76
1:25…..………..72
1:30…..………..67
1:35…..………..62
1:40…..………..60
1:45…..………..55
1:50…..………..52
Full…..………...96

Taken from the Wario frame data thread, but yeah. Really the odds of that combo happening are just silly.

Oh wow, I didn't know that xD. I picked up Wario for a doubles tournament a WHILE ago and all I knew was that Full charge wasn't as powerful as non-full charge, I didn't actually know what the growth was like.

I stand corrected.

 

[JCaesar]

Is there a way you can fix the cypher grab issue(when foes litterally grab the cypher to end Snake's acsent?)

They did. You get your jump back.

 

[shanus]

Snake's tilts are fine now.

I see you lowered the knockback growth of the last strike of his dair.I thought the point of his dair was to punish foolishness. I though the power was there to compensate for the lack of range, prority, and ease of use. I feel that 50 is too low if the original is 100. I think 70 is a more appropriate number.

Is there a way you can fix the cypher grab issue(when foes litterally grab the cypher to end Snake's acsent?)

4th hitbox of dair, not the final hitbox. 4th hitbox actually previously made linking all the hits more difficult. This made the move flow better than its previous iteration.

 

[Plum]

MK penetrates Marth's zone with ease.
His sword is almost as long as Marth's. Plus his ground game AND aerial game are better than Marth's. And he's much faster, has barely any lag for any attack (despite the fact that he has been nerfed). If range was enough to justify match-ups, Ike would own Marth. Which is not the case.

I'm not trying to defend MK. But your statement is just so wrong.

I'm just tossing out ideas, I haven't played any Marth's with my MK simply because I want experience in the Marth matchup with Wario.

So I may be wrong there, but I do know the Wario vs MK matchup and at this point in Brawl+'s metagame I'm saying Wario has the advantage until another MK player comes and proves me wrong.

 

[XSilvenX]

Umm I just wanna say...NOT in favor of adding shield drop lag. If you guys feel shielding is too safe you guys need to learn to not f-air into someone's shield like nub and learn to pressure smartly. There's a different between being foolish and jumping into someone's shield with a laggy move and knowing which aerial has next to no lag so you can add some jab pressure...not only that but you can land in back. If they attempt to turn around and do whatever, SURELY they will not make it in time if you're smart about it.

I feel the shield is perfect. ( going off of 4.1 from 4/7 not any of these nightlies..)

If you guys can keep it at that it would be fine. Oh and the Yoshi vs. Kirby thing..I just tested this and I can confirm that it will break his shield in a corner but seriously what stages have permanent corners other than Onnet ? It's pretty situational elsewhere so it's not a huge concern imo.

 

[shanus]

livestream is now up:
http://www.justin.tv/shanus19

 

[_Yes!_]

I hope your joking.

Not a joke: your posts are annoying, who are you?

MK's obvious character weaknesses can be abused now. This is something that you cannot deny, because it is a fact that the physics of Brawl+ allow his weaknesses to be actual weaknesses.

Oh no, MK's not retardedly top tier anymore. Just because he's not the best character doesn't mean he can't be broken, as proven by Snake and DDD, who IMO and in M2K's opinion not Top 5 in vBrawl.

There are characters around the board that can abuse them.

Maybe you main Captain Falcon, well sorry if he isn't one of them, that doesn't mean MK needs more nerfs. Falcon is easy to combo, easy to gimp, and has poor priority which still makes MK a tough battle for him. That doesn't mean every character is in the same situation.

I main Fox.

Wario went even with MK in vBrawl, and now he might even have the advantage. MK will have a hard time keeping up with Wario's aerial momentum while having a hard time comboing such a floaty character. Wario on the other hand can combo MK and kills him so much earlier that MK can kill him.

Oh no, MK's not retardedly top tier anymore. Just because he's not the best character doesn't mean he can't be broken, as proven by Snake and DDD, who IMO and in M2K's opinion not Top 5 in vBrawl.

Wario has his fair share of bad matchups, Sheik, Kirby, and Squirtle come to mind.

Someone like Samus can abuse his lack of options against projectiles and keep him away while building up damage.

Metaknight is still fast enough to get around samus's projectiles and can easily gimp samus offstage. Samus isn't a floaty so she gets combo'd. Samus still sucks at killing, and if you get hit by the Super Missle or Charge Shot then you shouldn't be playing at a competitive level.

Jiggly won't be combod while Rest gives her such insane early kills against MK.

Jiggs can't rest MK if Jiggs can't get past MK's sword. If you're getting hit by jiggs, your spacing sucks.

Marth has the advantage onstage with the longer sword. If he stays on stage then he might have the advantage.

Marth loses a priority battle with MK. MK outranges him with most moves. MK can gimp marth. marth can't gimp MK.

Same could be said about Snake. Stay onstage and keep away from the ledge and your chances go way up.

MK is fast enough to get around snake's camping. MK can get snake offstage quite easily. MK can gimp snake. If anything, Snake gets ***** by mk now, because snake can't camp as effectively as he could in vBrawl, but still has the disadvantages he had in vBrawl.

That is coming from my own experience and there might be more I'm missing.

You're missing the fact that you're wrong.

MK isn't broken...

Yes he is.

Maybe you fight Spam, and that doesn't mean that MK is broken. It just means that Spam is really good. And we all know that he is. Top players could use any character and make them look too good. That is why they are top players.

Brawl isn't a difficult game to be good in. In fact, it's probably the easiest fighting game I've ever seen in my life. Anyone, literally ANYONE can play at a high level if they're not an idiot. Imagine EVERYONE using MK the way spam does, especially since it's not that hard to do. That calls for nerfs IMO if he's that easy to use and is still very good.

He can't kill on stage,

Yes because it's impossible for metaknight to get his opponent offstage

he gets combod because he isn't floaty at all,

He outranges and outprioritizes most moves. If you're getting hit as metaknight that's your fault.

he is light,

He outranges and outprioritizes most moves. If you're getting hit as metaknight that's your fault.

he often has trouble following up in the air because of his poor horizontal movement,

If you can't combo with metaknight you should switch to Falcon.

and he can't deal with projectiles effectively.

Metaknight is still fast enough to get around _____'s projectiles. If you're getting hit by tons of projectiles perhaps you should pick a character with a reflector.

Not every character is meant to be able to counter MK, that is the beauty of Smash. I'm confident in saying that MK doesn't break the counterpick system anymore like he did in vBrawl.

This is garbage. MK is still high/top tier, meaning he beats most characters.

Edit:


Wario's CG only works on fast fallers and the 2 heaviest characters in the game. It is something that only affects a few characters and doesn't really make the matches unplayable, because it only gets like 40%. I don't have my Wii to test it out but the Waft doesn't even kill the lightest characters until like 50% with no DI. With DI you should be able to survive that.
Even if that is legit, that is so situational it isn't funny. The Waft is at max power at like 1 minute and 50 seconds, so you would have to have such perfect timing on the Waft for that to have a chance to kill, and the opponent would have to have just lost a stock for the CG to work. My thoughts is that you should be able to DI the Uthrow, and even if the Waft connected it shouldn't kill that early on the characters the CG works on, especially with DI.

The fact that it's possible and exists hinders the competitive nature of the game, where skill should outweigh stupid broken tactics and ******** character specific chaingrabs. Whether vBrawl DDD's or Falco's CG affected 2 characters or 20 characters, you cannot deny the fact that it was broken. This is why brawl+ was created, to rectify such things.

 

[Revven]

The fact that it's possible and exists hinders the competitive nature of the game, where skill should outweigh stupid broken tactics and ******** character specific chaingrabs. Whether vBrawl DDD's or Falco's CG affected 2 characters or 20 characters, you cannot deny the fact that it was broken. This is why brawl+ was created, to rectify such things.

We know about the CG, I happen to main Wario actually and was the first to know about it and tell people about it. We tried fixing it with the current codes at our disposal and it didn't just do anything. We need a throw modifier code to fix it, which we do not have at this current time, which means it is something you are going to have to put up with and just don't get grabbed against Wario when you're these 7-10 characters:

Falcon
Falco
Fox
Wolf*
Charizard*
DK*
Bowser
Snake
Sheik
Ganondorf

* - Indicates untested and not quite sure of yet but most likely given the traits of characters who get CG'd by Wario.

It'll get fixed when we have the code, right now, we do not so, don't get grabbed. People said that for DDD in vBrawl and people put up with that, you can put up with a 0%-42% CG on these characters until we get the code to fix it.

 

[Plum]

Not a joke: your posts are annoying, who are you?

Somebody who got his copy of Smash 64 the day it came out and has loved the series since. I don't see why it would matter who I am. I am trying to share my opinion, and state a disagreement with you. Simple as that.

Oh no, MK's not retardedly top tier anymore. Just because he's not the best character doesn't mean he can't be broken, as proven by Snake and DDD, who IMO and in M2K's opinion not Top 5 in vBrawl.

Wait... If he isn't the best character why would he need more nerfs? Snake, DDD, and any other top tier character in vBrawl aren't broken. They can be counterpicked. But this is Brawl+ not vBrawl.

I main Fox.

Fair enough... I was just going by what the icon in the corner of your posts says.

Wario has his fair share of bad matchups, Sheik, Kirby, and Squirtle come to mind.

So? I'm talking about Wario's ability to be a potential counter to MK in Brawl+ and not about his other matchups.

Metaknight is still fast enough to get around samus's projectiles and can easily gimp samus offstage. Samus isn't a floaty so she gets combo'd. Samus still sucks at killing, and if you get hit by the Super Missle or Charge Shot then you shouldn't be playing at a competitive level.

In vBrawl, I agree. In Brawl+ her wall of projectiles is much more effective. MK is fast, but when he has 3 projectiles and a Zair coming at him then even he can't magically vanish through all of them (assuming infinite cape is banned) If he dodges one, the next in line hits him. The homing missile follows him as he jumps, and her Zair can force him back down too. If you let MK get past the wall of projectiles then you are doing something wrong. Not to mention that the Super Missile and Charge Shot have so much more use in Brawl+ that makes hitting with them realistic.

Jiggs can't rest MK if Jiggs can't get past MK's sword. If you're getting hit by jiggs, your spacing sucks.

So are you going to tell me that a top level Jiggly player will never hit MK? If the Jiggly player can never hit MK then she must suck too. You can't just say that MK wins because he just does, which is really what you just said.

Marth loses a priority battle with MK. MK outranges him with most moves. MK can gimp marth. marth can't gimp MK.

MK outranges him with Ftilt and Dtilt, other then that Marth should always be able to outrange. All his aerials get outranged, and anyother move on the ground gets beaten out by Marth's options whether it is a pivot grab, or using Side B's transcendent priority, Marth can beat him out on paper. So for MK to always outrange Marth would mean he is only using two moves. That just doesn't work... Maybe MK still does have the advantage, I'm just posting ideas.

MK is fast enough to get around snake's camping. MK can get snake offstage quite easily. MK can gimp snake. If anything, Snake gets ***** by mk now, because snake can't camp as effectively as he could in vBrawl, but still has the disadvantages he had in vBrawl.

Snake has a combo game, can camp just as well if you play right, and his ground game still beats out MK's. Yeah, his recovery is bad, but that never stopped players like Ally from stomping MK's. He has the same disadvantages, but he has gained areas from Brawl+. How about we explore those and see how he fares against MK instead of just dismissing it like you seem to be doing?

You're missing the fact that you're wrong.

Ah of course. The good ol' I'm right, you're wrong argument. My favorite.

Brawl isn't a difficult game to be good in. In fact, it's probably the easiest fighting game I've ever seen in my life. Anyone, literally ANYONE can play at a high level if they're not an idiot. Imagine EVERYONE using MK the way spam does, especially since it's not that hard to do. That calls for nerfs IMO if he's that easy to use and is still very good.

vBrawl is a relatively easy fighting game in comparison to others. Brawl+ isn't; it put back a learning curve into the game, in which the better player wins. Maybe you should just adjust your playstyle to deal with what your opponent is doing? How is that playstyle broken? Can you support why it needs nerfs?

Yes because it's impossible for metaknight to get his opponent offstage

Of course it isn't, but that doesn't mean that some characters can't effectively plant their ground and stay on stage. If you can successfully do that then you could potentially be living upwards of 150 before you die from his on stage kill moves.

He outranges and outprioritizes most moves. If you're getting hit as metaknight that's your fault.

If you get hit with ANY character it is your fault. MK is bound to be hit. Isai's advice can only be used for so long. Not even M2K can play a perfect game. That doesn't change that he is a light character, and some characters can now combo into finishers. Coupled with his horrible momentum, MK has the potential to die at early percents. You can't argue against that, it is a fact.

If you can't combo with metaknight you should switch to Falcon.

I'm just saying another character flaw. Floaty characters can easily chase in the air no problem, where as MK has more trouble. He can only jump to chase so fast.

Metaknight is still fast enough to get around _____'s projectiles. If you're getting hit by tons of projectiles perhaps you should pick a character with a reflector.

Again, if you can't keep MK away while you are playing a zoning character then you are doing something wrong. MK has no long range options, and even if he is fast, the projectile user could just intercept and keep him away with another projectile.

This is garbage. MK is still high/top tier, meaning he beats most characters.

We haven't even explored every matchup yet, so there is no way to know this already. He is good, and if he is still among the best that doesn't warrant any nerf. The game is still bound to have a few best characters even once all the tweaks are done. The idea is to make characters viable, and if they need a secondary to deal with MK that just plays into the nature of Smash. A game of matchups, and counterpicking. Let's explore our options first until we toss out more nerfs and then find out they were unnecessary this whole time.

The fact that it's possible and exists hinders the competitive nature of the game, where skill should outweigh stupid broken tactics and ******** character specific chaingrabs. Whether vBrawl DDD's or Falco's CG affected 2 characters or 20 characters, you cannot deny the fact that it was broken. This is why brawl+ was created, to rectify such things.

What do you say about the other CG's in Brawl+ then?
Characters are bound to have bad matchups. We shouldn't go about nerfing characters just because "X" character has problems with "Y" character. A handful of characters can be CG'd. Why does Wario need to be changed just because these characters can be CG'd? If we went and changed everything that fit under this category then there would be no unique matchups. It's like saying "let's only allow matchups that are 50-50, because no character should be able to that advantage of another character's weakness."

 

[Sukai]

Looks like everyone is having cowtipper for dinner.
But seriously man, Meta Knight is good, but you have to see it in a way that other characters have gained the necessary abilities to fight back to an acceptable degree.
Falco ***** by the way, he trounces Meta Knight, because of his sick projectile game and priority that rivals Meta Knight himself. Snake is...Snake. Ike spaces better, is more maneuverable (than his Brawl counterpart) and also combos, plus he can counter which is a viable enough option when getting comboed.
I'm not saying MK gets owned (except vs. Falco), but his chances of losing have balanced.

If I'm wrong, the tournament result will speak for themselves.

 

[zxeon]

No more shoot outs Plum and Cowttipper. It's devouring pages t an alarming rate.

Agree to disagree.