PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[JPOBS]

some characters like falcon can still grab you if you are relaly close to their back.

but these are details, DETAILS

 

[Dr Peepee]

DRPP I liked your up tilts and overall pacing in your GF set with M2K. Up tilt used to be one of my favorite moves but I think it went away once shine/dair juggles became consistent. Next time I use Falco I'm going to try to add that to my game.

Yeah man I <333 uptilt. Glad I could give you something to use! =)

Samoose is not a character

She's a popular smoothie

Uhhhh

Get behind characters with Falco

So you won't be shield grabbed

Then they have to attack OOS, roll, sidestep, hold block, or WD

so **** them

**** THEM

Samoose of course doesn't count because she's not a character

You know, I never actually learned to pressure behind anyone(besides Samus and Falcon/Ganon sometimes lol). I guess I should do that. XD

 

[Rubyiris]

dair crossup > turnaround utilt has become my new bnb lol.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

i don't know about the squall OOS thing, lol, i'd like to know about that from fly too O_O

Oh, the squall hammer OoS desynch is just when you jump OoS and input side-B before Nana leaves her shield; it makes Popo do the solo squall and Nana jump for reasons that I won't get into here. I think it's probably better than belay OoS for the purposes of countering lasers OoS; I'll say more about that in a minute.

Wow belay OOS is sick then. I wish I could play against some of that so I could see what it's like. How fast does that come out btw? Mango did it, so I guess it's doable haha. Hmm, if that's the case, then I'll need to become more comfortable shield pressuring ICs.
Do you ever shield DI the pressure away? You should.

It has been a while since I've played Mango's Falco, so I'm hazy on the details, but I believe it was mostly just dair shine pressure. IIRC, he just dair'd really late and I think he spaced them farther away from me than most other Falcos do. My memory could be faulty there, though. In the example I'm mentally reviewing, he had me by the edge, but yeah, I could have escaped otherwise.

You might just want to have somebody light-shield with ICs and experiment around for a while to see what you can get away with. I don't think it would be a huge drawback if you couldn't get the shield pressure down super well since Falco doesn't really need crazy shield pressure to give ICs a hard time.

About belay OoS -> blizzard:

It can work for countering lasers, but it has a few drawbacks. The idea behind it is to have Nana jump while Popo does the solo IC belay animation on the ground, have Nana drift a little backwards so Popo takes the laser, and have Nana blizzard. One of the bigger problems with this is that if Falco shoots a laser kind of high, it will go over Popo and hit Nana, in which case Popo is stuck in his laggy belay animation without a blizzard protecting him. Another problem is that timing it can be difficult if the Falco is good at very rapid SHL. It's easy to accidentally do it a bit too late so that Nana doesn't go far enough backwards to avoid the laser, in which case it hits both ICs and nothing is accomplished.

The desynch is extremely fast, though; you can go from having both ICs in their shields to having Nana starting a move in the air in about 10 frames, and it is a strong counter to things like laser -> grab.

Squall hammer OoS -> blizzard has a few advantages over that. For one thing, it immediately moves Popo in front of Nana, so you don't need to have Nana drift backwards a bit. Since it also pops Popo into the air a little, it's really unlikely that the laser will miss him, unlike with belay OoS, in which case high lasers go over him. It's also easier execution-wise. The only drawback is that since Popo is put slightly above the ground, he can't act as quickly as he can with belay OoS, but he can still waveland out of it pretty quickly and I don't think there's much of a difference for most practical purposes.


Oh, regarding the popularity of these:

None of them are very popular. Choknater's original short hop blizzard through lasers has gotten some attention and I know Wobbles and Nintendude have dabbled in it, but the others aren't widely used. I can vouch for their effectiveness, though.

 

[FoxLisk]

dair relatively far behind someone's shield -> turnaround ftilt is pretty fun. you dont get a great followup but it's hard to punish and it's cute

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Yeah I never felt particularly safe lasering in this matchup as is, so it's good to know I was on the right track there. Are ICs just afraid of shield pressure then? That's pretty scary to Falcos too since there are two shields and you can manipulate them (one hard shield and one light shield) in different ways as well.

Contrary to popular belief, IC's staying in shield against confident, consistent players is usually not a good thing.

I honestly view IC's shield as basically the same thing as Falcon's Dash-dance. Falcon's dash dance is used as a way to bait a misspaced/whiffed move so that he can get in and punish you with a grab/aerial. While IC's shield is used to punish a misspaced move or missed L-cancel so you can grab and stack on the damage. They're both reliant on the opponent making a mistake or leaving a hole in their game(IC a little moreso than Falcon).

Outside of the obvious Wombo-Combo shenanigans, IC doesn't really have many options out of shield so our matchups so in matchups where our shield can be safely pressured, we're supposed to rely more on our erratic movement to create misspacings.

Besides, why would a Falco risk Dair -> Shining a shield? Wouldn't Nair/Bair -> Shine be a safer choice?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh, the squall hammer OoS desynch is just when you jump OoS and input side-B before Nana leaves her shield; it makes Popo do the solo squall and Nana jump for reasons that I won't get into here. I think it's probably better than belay OoS for the purposes of countering lasers OoS; I'll say more about that in a minute.


It has been a while since I've played Mango's Falco, so I'm hazy on the details, but I believe it was mostly just dair shine pressure. IIRC, he just dair'd really late and I think he spaced them farther away from me than most other Falcos do. My memory could be faulty there, though. In the example I'm mentally reviewing, he had me by the edge, but yeah, I could have escaped otherwise.

You might just want to have somebody light-shield with ICs and experiment around for a while to see what you can get away with. I don't think it would be a huge drawback if you couldn't get the shield pressure down super well since Falco doesn't really need crazy shield pressure to give ICs a hard time.

About belay OoS -> blizzard:

It can work for countering lasers, but it has a few drawbacks. The idea behind it is to have Nana jump while Popo does the solo IC belay animation on the ground, have Nana drift a little backwards so Popo takes the laser, and have Nana blizzard. One of the bigger problems with this is that if Falco shoots a laser kind of high, it will go over Popo and hit Nana, in which case Popo is stuck in his laggy belay animation without a blizzard protecting him. Another problem is that timing it can be difficult if the Falco is good at very rapid SHL. It's easy to accidentally do it a bit too late so that Nana doesn't go far enough backwards to avoid the laser, in which case it hits both ICs and nothing is accomplished.

The desynch is extremely fast, though; you can go from having both ICs in their shields to having Nana starting a move in the air in about 10 frames, and it is a strong counter to things like laser -> grab.

Squall hammer OoS -> blizzard has a few advantages over that. For one thing, it immediately moves Popo in front of Nana, so you don't need to have Nana drift backwards a bit. Since it also pops Popo into the air a little, it's really unlikely that the laser will miss him, unlike with belay OoS, in which case high lasers go over him. It's also easier execution-wise. The only drawback is that since Popo is put slightly above the ground, he can't act as quickly as he can with belay OoS, but he can still waveland out of it pretty quickly and I don't think there's much of a difference for most practical purposes.


Oh, regarding the popularity of these:

None of them are very popular. Choknater's original short hop blizzard through lasers has gotten some attention and I know Wobbles and Nintendude have dabbled in it, but the others aren't widely used. I can vouch for their effectiveness, though.

So what would Falco do if he wasn't confident in his shield pressure then? Just space some moves on their shields?

WOW belay OOS is very interesting then. But surely Falco wouldn't be shooting high expecting that sort of counter when you could do it at any time, right?

ICs seem to be taking lots of gambles to counter Falco's stuff in this matchup, but I suppose their reward is a grab/Dsmash? Seems worth it to take a laser/eat some damage vs take a stock/rack up some good damage.

That squall hammer OOS, it's better to just bait it then, since you can't challenge either character? Or can you hit Nana before the blizzard comes out? That doesn't seem very practical though, but I have a hard time picturing it so I don't know....

Regarding the popularity: Is that because the techniques are difficult, or too situational, or the ICs players are lazy, or what? If they're THAT good of techniques then it doesn't make sense for them not to be abused....

dair relatively far behind someone's shield -> turnaround ftilt is pretty fun. you dont get a great followup but it's hard to punish and it's cute

Haha I like it. =p

Contrary to popular belief, IC's staying in shield against confident, consistent players is usually not a good thing.

I honestly view IC's shield as basically the same thing as Falcon's Dash-dance. Falcon's dash dance is used as a way to bait a misspaced/whiffed move so that he can get in and punish you with a grab/aerial. While IC's shield is used to punish a misspaced move or missed L-cancel so you can grab and stack on the damage. They're both reliant on the opponent making a mistake or leaving a hole in their game(IC a little moreso than Falcon).

Outside of the obvious Wombo-Combo shenanigans, IC doesn't really have many options out of shield so our matchups so in matchups where our shield can be safely pressured, we're supposed to rely more on our erratic movement to create misspacings.

Besides, why would a Falco risk Dair -> Shining a shield? Wouldn't Nair/Bair -> Shine be a safer choice?

Isn't it more likely that people will miss L-cancels on ICs' shields though? Or at least you may have more time to shield grab since there's twice the hitlag that Falco has to go through?

ICs have a pretty quick WD so I imagine that's not terribly hard, but I don't know.

Dair starts a little slower but I think it's safer on shield then Nair is. Bair is worse overall but it's safer to use for spacing purposes. People don't know Nair's timing as well so that's why Dair gets punished a little more I believe.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So Falco's fair is kind of good.

Proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGVPFI8ylg8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3yzC2w5paE

Note how many times fair is used to combo/outprioritize.

 

[Diakonos]

Urine sounds like an awful treat.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's an acquired taste. =p

 

[KirbyKaze]

oh the sexual jokes that can be made

 

[Druggedfox]

who's gonna make'em?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Urolagnia is a paraphilia in which sexual excitement is associated with the sight or thought of urine or urination.

There. Now it's old news.

 

[choknater]

yo get at my smegma

 

[KirbyKaze]

itt we discuss falco

and watersports

sometimes together

 

[Melomaniacal]

Smegma: a combination of exfoliated epithelial cells, transudated skin oils, and moisture. It occurs in both female and male mammalian genitalia.

Old news.

 

[Yo$himan]

@PP

If my opponent and I both don't know where the holes in falco's pressure are, how do I find them? Or do I have to wait for him to figure it out and punish me?

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP

If my opponent and I both don't know where the holes in falco's pressure are, how do I find them? Or do I have to wait for him to figure it out and punish me?

Where, you can always have a general idea for when Falco is vulnerable during his pressure, but how wide the holes are at different times depends on the Falco you're playing, and sort of how you're moving around too.

If you go into a match vs a Falco you don't play against, then again, you have those general ideas for what can beat Falco's pressure, but you have to watch what the Falco does to determine where he leaves his holes. It's a style thing.

I mean there are tons of things to look for, so maybe you can ask about specific parts of Falco's pressure that give you a tough time?

 

[FoxLisk]

yo

here's the basic breakdown but this doesnt cover everything.

if you hit with an aerial high on someone's shield (or on your way up), they have time to grab or shine oos before your shine comes out

if you hit with the aerial low on their shield, right before landing, they don't have time to grab and i dont think they can shine oos either, maybe if they do it perfectly but it's not worth the risk.

but then of course if you hit low with the first aerial, shine, and do another aerial, if you do that aerial early, they have time to act before your NEXT shine comes out. if you wait and do the second aerial late, they have time to act after the shine and before your next aerial

which is why things like low dair -> shine -> fadeback nair are so powerful. the only gap is as you're coming at them which is very dangerous to punish, and then you're out of shine and grab range afterwards.

 

[choknater]

the pbody lives on

 

[KirbyKaze]

pbody *****

 

[Pogogo]

How do I get out of the trap of spamming dair to shine fsmash and dash attack to uptilt(ugh)? I find it very difficut to laser on a stage that is not fd. And my DI sucks so I get tipper killed at like 40%. Basically...

My falco sucks. I want to main falcon now.

Edit: For Shine OoS should you stay grounded becuase thats freaking hard.

 

[Faithkeeper]

Edit: For Shine OoS should you stay grounded becuase thats freaking hard.

If at all possible. If you stay grounded you can waveshine out of the shine oos. much safer if you miss that way.

 

[FoxLisk]

How do I get out of the trap of spamming dair to shine fsmash and dash attack to uptilt(ugh)? I find it very difficut to laser on a stage that is not fd. And my DI sucks so I get tipper killed at like 40%. Basically...

um... just stop doing it? if you can't stop doing it, wear a rubber band around your wrist and everytime you do one of those things, snap it on your wrist? i dont know, dude, just ****in' don't.

Edit: For Shine OoS should you stay grounded becuase thats freaking hard.

depends. if your opponent is a fast falller at low % and your shine is going to land, yeah, cause you combo best that way... if your opponent is at high %, shine bair oos is better if it'll kill/let you edgeguard. if your opponent is at the right % where you can shine -> waveland -> something, then it's faster to shine oos off the ground. so... in the words of KK, the answer is a resounding sometimes.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

asking dr pp & diakanos(and really whoever else wants to help me out): how do i beat a falco like this, with marth?

i feel he plays this matchup perfectly. he's one of the best falco's in norcal (if not the best falco in norcal)

he does this thing where if marth is at the ledge, he'll stay a perfect distance away and spam lasers. if i try to do anything from the ledge, i'll get lasered into ftilted. or laser into grab'd or laser into anything'd really.

i beat him in the first set, but then in sets 2 & 3 he just obliterates me.

i tried to use my best powershielding and it paid off a couple times, but i'm not consistent enough at it to give me a real edge

here's the matches that i lose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp4vcUrS9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4WgTnyFEhs&feature=related

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

stupid double post, sorry. laggy internet ftl

 

[FoxLisk]

you commit too much and don't get enough off your grabs.

also you dont space yourself appropriately when he's SHLing in place.

I think the biggest thing is he seems to be significantly faster than you.

ninja edit: cc grab moar

 

[Niko45]

I think you're revolving around playing out of shield too much on falco's approach, although when you do land those PS wavedash ftilts its amazing. Try letting lasers hitting you and DDing out of them into dash attacks and grabs more. You should also really stop challenging him when he's on the top platform like that. Wait under a side platform and wait for him to do something else. If he really wants to camp the top platform then just time an up air approach after you've measured when it will really work.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hey PP/Falco players... *sigh* i'm having a huge debate.. on what character I wanna play... sadly.. ever since Axe moved... it's most likely just "self-doubt" of my abilities.. since I'm now lacking.. players around my level around my area... since SV population of smashers is.. "4".. ><;

I uploaded some Falco...I'm debating.. should I continue with Falco.. and hope to contend with amazing players such as Axe, PP, Zhu, DSW, man, there are so many great Falco players...idk how I could compete.. or just give up... >< especially since.. I don't have much to work with.. idk.. I'm jus saying.. as Falco players... In your honest opinion... what do you think I should do.... I've been debating with myself for weeeks... I just can't... *sigh*.. idk... I'm sorry to bring this dilemma here... but i honestly don't know where to turn...

Here:

New Yoshi videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=damWQ7OHjdw
New Falco Videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TVFbP3xnMM

Should I play Yoshi?...Or try to compete with the Falcos... or perhaps pull an Axe... and do both... but for some reason... I'm nervous to.. since Falco/Yoshi... seem to be like characters on the opposite side of the learning spectrum for me in terms of playstyle... and I fear I might take away from one of them... idk.. >< I'm going crazy...><;;;;

Sorry to bring this up here again... Please tell me what you all think?
Critique/advise/help/anything!..

 

[tarheeljks]

haven't watched these videos yet but axe spoke very highly of your falco so play falco! and continue repping yoshi ofc


edit: it sounds like you want to do both and are afraid it won't work. leap of faith, never know unless you try, etc. you got this


2: also i love the way that you and axe play falco

 

[Fly_Amanita]

So what would Falco do if he wasn't confident in his shield pressure then? Just space some moves on their shields?

That works fine. It's hard for ICs to punish spaced bairs, for example, since ICs have relatively limited OoS options.

WOW belay OOS is very interesting then. But surely Falco wouldn't be shooting high expecting that sort of counter when you could do it at any time, right?

I actually think that pretty much every time a Falco has hit my Nana out of belay OoS was a case of the Falco player just being technically sloppy, lol. I don't think it's something that anybody I've ever played has consciously looked out for a lot, especially since I don't do it often.

ICs seem to be taking lots of gambles to counter Falco's stuff in this matchup, but I suppose their reward is a grab/Dsmash? Seems worth it to take a laser/eat some damage vs take a stock/rack up some good damage.

That squall hammer OOS, it's better to just bait it then, since you can't challenge either character? Or can you hit Nana before the blizzard comes out? That doesn't seem very practical though, but I have a hard time picturing it so I don't know....

Regarding the popularity: Is that because the techniques are difficult, or too situational, or the ICs players are lazy, or what? If they're THAT good of techniques then it doesn't make sense for them not to be abused....

Sorry, I think I might have made some of this stuff sound more universal than it is, so let me emphasize that the blizzard tricks are only good when Falco is approaching with lasers or is nearby and shooting lasers. They can all be punished badly if Falco doesn't shoot a laser when the ICs player thinks he will and they don't accomplish anything if Falco is too far away to hit with blizzard, so they're not the super-amazing be-all-and-end-all to stopping Falco in his tracks. They're mostly just things that are good to throw out on rare occasions to start a combo or land a grab.

Also, the only reason anybody would probably know about most of these tricks is that either they've seen me post about them in the General ICs Chat thread or they've played me in ICs vs. Falco for a while. Against the Falcos that I have played against quite a bit, I don't typically have that many opportunities to catch them with any blizzard shenanigans since they're really cautious about shooting lasers while close enough to get hit by blizzard.

 

[choknater]

You are the reason I'm scared of all socal players =\ they're better at the matchup LOL.

Vman: stick with both. It's good that I saw your post because HMW and I can both vouch that Falco and Yoshi can both be played together as mains. In Modesto we knew a good friend whose smash name was Park and he mained both of those characters, and it really kept his tech skill on point all the time. Yoshi is actually more technically demanding than Falco, so playing Falco will keep your head in the game as far as mixups and spacing go. Then you can go back to Yoshi and tap people with your tricksies.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea. Play both! Don't ever drop Yoshi. You're way too talented with him.

 

[Rubyiris]

Yoshis a piece of ****. Falco all day, says Vman's #1 fanboy. <3

 

[Diakonos]

asking dr pp & DiakOnos(and really whoever else wants to help me out): how do i beat a falco like this, with marth?

i feel he plays this matchup perfectly. he's one of the best falco's in norcal (if not the best falco in norcal)

he does this thing where if marth is at the ledge, he'll stay a perfect distance away and spam lasers. if i try to do anything from the ledge, i'll get lasered into ftilted. or laser into grab'd or laser into anything'd really.

i beat him in the first set, but then in sets 2 & 3 he just obliterates me.

i tried to use my best powershielding and it paid off a couple times, but i'm not consistent enough at it to give me a real edge

here's the matches that i lose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp4vcUrS9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4WgTnyFEhs&feature=related

I don't think I'm -that- much better at the matchup than you (if at all), but I have a few pointers.

Just some general advice:
- CCing against Falco can be dangerous. I like to DI the lower-percentage dairs away and try for a grab or spaced aerial.
- He platform camps you using the top platform, and by camping lasers underneath the side platforms. My solution: become very good at isai drops. Jump on a side platform, and land fairs onto it, and drop with another fair or an uair or whatever by spacing. If you see an opportunity, smack him out of that top platform (uair would work). If he drops from the top platform with a laser (which falcos do), you have a chance at running off the platform with a fair, or with a falling aerial from the platform. Doing this is really good against Falco. Don't be afraid to jump onto that side platform and fight from there.
- you kept throwing him into the middle of the stage when you grabbed him near the edge. Accidents, hopefully, since you should often go for a gay or at least throw him onto the platform above you and utilt **** him.
- counter OOS doesn't seem to be working for you.
- he knows what your recovery is going to be most of the time... I guess that's just Marth. When you grab the edge and he's waiting, try spacing fairs from the edge to regrab. It might bait him into coming closer. Have you considered WD onto the stage from the edge? I like to do utilt after because it has that huge hitbox in front of your body.
- there are a few times when you could have tippered him but instead you went for an uair combo. Take a lesson from IB and just tipper him. I need to work on that too.

His spacing is really good. He knows what's safe against your shield and what's not. If you use the platforms better, you can make him jump to laser. That's pretty obvious, but it's helpful. When you have a chicken jumping and you can get him with a tipped aerial, you're happy.

You were playing a bit nervous, too. Don't feel bad -- I think you will get it next time.

 

[TheGoat]

When exactly do you approach with either dair or nair?

 

[Pogogo]

What I meant was I play in a very stale way, how do I be less stale? I mean dair to shine is really good. And flying nair is good. And dair edgegaurd is good. But when its the only thing you ever do, peeps just wd back and I lose.

How do you guys get your thumb from y to b that fast?

 

[Faithkeeper]

How do you guys get your thumb from y to b that fast?

For shine oos? Idk what most people do, I actually use the c-stick up to jump oos. It works really well for me.

 

[Rubyiris]

i use up + shine lol.

 

[Pogogo]

up plus shine. On the control stick? I dunno about that. Cstick sounds like a good idea though

Edit: after actually trying it, both are freakin really hard. Cstick requites so much coordination. Control stick is too fast. y gives me the most success but it is also a speed based method whereas a coordiation one might be more reliable in the long run