PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Melomaniacal]

I also use up -> shine.

I also use the analog stick for multi-shining.

 

[Pogogo]

I guess the diff is you cant jump out of shine with cstick, so maybe ignoring an easier method? All are hard so I dunno. And when I say hard I mean hard to be perfectly on the ground not the tiny hop one. Its pretty easy to get the tiny hop one with y.

 

[JPOBS]

the beauty of falco is because of his quick aerial acceleration and fast fall speed, not stayign grounded isnt a huge deal because you go up and come back down so quickly, that even when the shine misses, your opponent rarely has a chance to punish, especially if you (wave)land on a platform.

this is different from character like sheik, who actually have to be careful when the jump OoS with nair and stuff, cuz their mobility is so slow that you can often just punish the jump/nair on reaction, even sometimes when the nair hits you.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Can someone be too high of % for lazer to reset?
and around what percent does jab stop jab resetting?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Doubles Advice?

So, I'm always looking for singles advice and stuff but I realized I don't really watch any of my doubles vids to see what I can do better and when I do I really feel overwhelmed by all of the stuff going on at once so I was wondering if someone could throw me a couple of tips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfSkWKNeAvg

What can I do better?
What can I do better for my partner?
Any specific stuff for Falco/Marth?

This person is literally the only person I team with so specificity doesn't hurt I guess lol

thx in advance <3

 

[JPOBS]

Can someone be too high of % for lazer to reset?

to m y knowledge no. Lasers have no knockback, and resets are a function of knockback and character weight. So unless im somehow mistaken, a laser will always reset at any %.

and around what percent does jab stop jab resetting?

depends on the character. iirc, heavier characters are jab reset to higher percent, lighter characters stop being reset at low percents.

could be wrong about it but i think thats how it worlds.

 

[Kanelol]

depends on the character. iirc, heavier characters are jab reset to higher percent, lighter characters stop being reset at low percents.

could be wrong about it but i think thats how it worlds.

character weight and fall speed are a big part but doesnt it also depend on DI

 

[Jake13]

For shine oos? Idk what most people do, I actually use the c-stick up to jump oos. It works really well for me.

can you buffer a jump oos with the c-stick?

 

[Druggedfox]

can you buffer a jump oos with the c-stick?

Yes, you can.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That works fine. It's hard for ICs to punish spaced bairs, for example, since ICs have relatively limited OoS options.


I actually think that pretty much every time a Falco has hit my Nana out of belay OoS was a case of the Falco player just being technically sloppy, lol. I don't think it's something that anybody I've ever played has consciously looked out for a lot, especially since I don't do it often.



Sorry, I think I might have made some of this stuff sound more universal than it is, so let me emphasize that the blizzard tricks are only good when Falco is approaching with lasers or is nearby and shooting lasers. They can all be punished badly if Falco doesn't shoot a laser when the ICs player thinks he will and they don't accomplish anything if Falco is too far away to hit with blizzard, so they're not the super-amazing be-all-and-end-all to stopping Falco in his tracks. They're mostly just things that are good to throw out on rare occasions to start a combo or land a grab.

Also, the only reason anybody would probably know about most of these tricks is that either they've seen me post about them in the General ICs Chat thread or they've played me in ICs vs. Falco for a while. Against the Falcos that I have played against quite a bit, I don't typically have that many opportunities to catch them with any blizzard shenanigans since they're really cautious about shooting lasers while close enough to get hit by blizzard.

So Falco's only really safe from this when lasering across the stage? But then, ice block desyncs would cause him to approach, so this doesn't seem TOO bad. And if Falco shoots less lasers when close, then you get freedom to move around, leaving surprises like WD OOS Dsmash available, correct? Anything that cuts off Falco's lasering and allows you to more more freely like that sounds great to me.

Hey PP/Falco players... *sigh* i'm having a huge debate.. on what character I wanna play... sadly.. ever since Axe moved... it's most likely just "self-doubt" of my abilities.. since I'm now lacking.. players around my level around my area... since SV population of smashers is.. "4".. ><;

I uploaded some Falco...I'm debating.. should I continue with Falco.. and hope to contend with amazing players such as Axe, PP, Zhu, DSW, man, there are so many great Falco players...idk how I could compete.. or just give up... >< especially since.. I don't have much to work with.. idk.. I'm jus saying.. as Falco players... In your honest opinion... what do you think I should do.... I've been debating with myself for weeeks... I just can't... *sigh*.. idk... I'm sorry to bring this dilemma here... but i honestly don't know where to turn...

Here:

New Yoshi videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=damWQ7OHjdw
New Falco Videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TVFbP3xnMM

Should I play Yoshi?...Or try to compete with the Falcos... or perhaps pull an Axe... and do both... but for some reason... I'm nervous to.. since Falco/Yoshi... seem to be like characters on the opposite side of the learning spectrum for me in terms of playstyle... and I fear I might take away from one of them... idk.. >< I'm going crazy...><;;;;

Sorry to bring this up here again... Please tell me what you all think?
Critique/advise/help/anything!..

First off, good Falco players(or players of any character really) are meant to be viewed as people to learn from, not compare yourself to. That only brings you down and makes you feel worse about your improvement. If anything, more good Falcos means a faster improvement rate. =)

Many people are successful in their own ways, but I've always been of the opinion that *truly* minimizing your character's weaknesses can be done best while solely focusing on that character. I don't have any real advice beyond pick one character and stick with them, but I hope whatever you choose works out for you man. =)



Will do critiques later.

 

[Brookman]

I am re-subbing.

 

[Sage Osaka]

to m y knowledge no. Lasers have no knockback, and resets are a function of knockback and character weight. So unless im somehow mistaken, a laser will always reset at any %.
could be wrong about it but i think thats how it worlds.

im fairly certain youre wrong on that. not sure if lasers are different, but most reset mechanics are (at least partially) % based (i verified this with m2k when i housed him) and when you get high enough % you can roll or get-up attack when someone attempts to jab (or laser) reset you.

 

[TheGoat]

I don't understand, what exactly does buffering mean in melee? Like buffering the jump oos, or buffering a roll?

 

[Brookman]

When shielding, the C-stick can be used to buffer side step, roll, and jump commands.

A good way to test this is to let your shield be hit by a high stun move and then try to jump out. If you try to jump out too early (using y, for example) you will simply sit in your shield. If you press c^ during the stun you'll jump on the first possible frame.

sorry if this explanation is convoluted I did the best I could :]

 

[Rubyiris]

So... How do/did people get good at crouch canceling? Outside of holding down during laggy moves, I don't understand how people are able to constantly move, and CC > stuff.

Also, how do you Cc grab? I always down tilt. :\

 

[Brookman]

CC > shield > press a

best way to CC is smash DI rather htan just holding down. CC has a lot to do with reaction, in my opinion. If you have trouble CCing with falco start with Marth. His CC + grab are easier.

 

[Rubyiris]

I found cc > stuff easier with Falco. I've been trying to incorperate it with Marth, but I'm usually in the air as Marth lol.

Actually, that's my thing. I'm almost always in the air. Is it even possible to CC in those circumstances?

 

[JPOBS]

character weight and fall speed are a big part but doesnt it also depend on DI

as far as I know, you can't DI something with 0 knockback (lasers)

but yes DI does matter for jab resets. sdi makes them stp working at lower percents, and ASDI makes them stop working at higher percents (but still lower than no DI at all)

im fairly certain youre wrong on that. not sure if lasers are different, but most reset mechanics are (at least partially) % based (i verified this with m2k when i housed him) and when you get high enough % you can roll or get-up attack when someone attempts to jab (or laser) reset you.

yea (see above). thats mostly a factor of DI and stuff, kane didnt really mention di at first so i didnt bother to mention it

Actually, that's my thing. I'm almost always in the air. Is it even possible to CC in those circumstances?

First of all, like brookman said, CC'ing (in its fake form) is a combination of prediction/reaction to when oyu are going to get hit. Thats how people seem to be able to move and CC at the same time, because the instant they assume they are going to get hit, they start holding down.

as for the answer to your question, the strict answer would be "no, you can't CC in the air"
but the super technicality answer would be "if you were at low enough percent, and low enough to the ground when you got hit, you could potentially ASDI down far enough to touch the ground before be launched, and therefore initiate a cc"

but thats a super technicality and not something to bank on at all. Chances are if you get hit in the air, you will never get a cc

 

[Rubyiris]

you can most definitely DI falco's lasers.

 

[Sage Osaka]

smash di lasers ftw.

 

[Rubyiris]

I do it accidentally a lot, but I'm slowly learning how to do it on purpose.

 

[Faithkeeper]

Yes, you can.

Will the shine buffer after that?

 

[Druggedfox]

If you're good at the timing yes... I've played around with it, and it very achievable and practical. I don't feel like I'm in a position that needs a buffer to abuse, however if it ever begins to present itself, I'd say why not master it? =D

SDI'ing lasers is easy, and gets you free grabs on falco players >_>

Hi PP

 

[Faithkeeper]

SDI'ing lasers is easy, and gets you free grabs on falco players >_>

How so?

Spoiler

10chars

 

[Druggedfox]

If falco players are getting too close to you when they try to laser-->grab, its often punishable through a few different ways. If they're spacing well, so that they're using the mid-full range of the grab, SDI'ing the laser away often causes them to miss, giving you a free grab. It's pretty useful I'd say, especially since you generally know when the falco is going to laser (unless you've scared them into not lasering, in which case you have nothing to worry about).

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWF7I2N3h9M

Notice how IB gets a grab nearly every time Chops double lasers from the ledge? That's good use of SDI on lasers.

 

[FoxLisk]

you can SDI lasers. you can't DI them.

 

[JPOBS]

^ that

also, movement via SDI is a function of hitstun i think, i.e. every frame of hitstun you can input a direction

i don't know if lasers offer enough hitstun to input enough SDI to raise your character off the floor (thats how avoiding the reset works)

anyone who cares enough can test it themselves pretty easy, but im certain laser resets work perfectly up to all percent where they would be viable anyway.

 

[FoxLisk]

gah no

okay

sdi works during hitlag, not hitstun

and there's no way you're gonna input more than one SDI during a laser's hitstun. so. i dont know if that's enough to get you off the ground, but that's the only question.

and there's no way it would be affected by percent.

 

[JPOBS]

ya my bad i meant hitlag lol, hitstun was dumb

 

[Faithkeeper]

If I dair>shine a falco/fox's shield, and I know they are going to shine oos after my shine hits their shield, can I double shine to punish or should I just grab after the dair?

 

[Mogwai]

i would double shine or shine-grab. They both have a frame advantage iirc.

 

[Druggedfox]

If we're being precise (I assume both people are frame perfect... easier to talk about)...

I want to say a fox could buffer a jump OoS and frame perfect shine to beat out a frame perfect shine>grab.

Shine grab leaves a 6 frame window to do things? Fox's jump is 4 frames, etc etc.

I'd say double shine is the best option, followed by shine grab. Of course, if you can shine grab closer to frame perfectly than they can shine OoS it doesn't matter

 

[Mogwai]

If we're being precise (I assume both people are frame perfect... easier to talk about)...

I want to say a fox could buffer a jump OoS and frame perfect shine to beat out a frame perfect shine>grab.

Shine grab leaves a 6 frame window to do things? Fox's jump is 4 frames, etc etc.

I'd say double shine is the best option, followed by shine grab. Of course, if you can shine grab closer to frame perfectly than they can shine OoS it doesn't matter

You have you still have 3 frames of them being in shield stun when you start your jump animation, meaning that with a shine grab (comes out on frame 7), you'll leave either 3 or 4 frames (can't remember if you can start the grab on the 1st frame of your jump start up or if you have to wait until the 2nd frame), meaning it's exceptionally close with shine -> grab vs. Fox's shine OoS (either even frames or +1 frame to Falco). Double Shine on the other hand gives you +2 frames over Fox's shine OoS. This is all in Super Theory Brothers Melee anyway though...

 

[Druggedfox]

Of course =D

I'm starting to take it seriously though, because it's not like I'm frame perfect and they aren't >_<

I keep getting frame perfect shield grabbed out of shine grabs and hating life

 

[JPOBS]

wtf DF? who are you plying that is consistently shield grabbing your shine grabs lol? are you over using them or soemthing?

prolly means they are mashing grab hoping you are going delay aerial pressure their sheild

in which case, you should totally just instant rising dair their face, or double shine or something

 

[Faithkeeper]

Can you use cstick up to buffer jc shield grab? Easy (easier) frame-perfect shieldgrabs? I don't think I can mash grab at 2-frame intervals.(making up for the jump) Unless of course mashing z buffers.

Theory bros is fun.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWF7I2N3h9M

Notice how IB gets a grab nearly every time Chops double lasers from the ledge? That's good use of SDI on lasers.

wow ib is so sexy!

i feel like he is a "complete" marth main.

the only thing thats stopping him from being a better marth than mew2king, is time & experience.

 

[Druggedfox]

^And not getting ***** by vanz >_< <3 IB

@JPOBS

Sleepyk does it to me >_> I don't actually shine grab that often, but a couple times every smash session he'll do it to me... it's absolutely hilarious, but still a bit frustrating.

 

[JPOBS]

lol me and my friends call it the "brawl grab" when someone just randomly grabs you out of something they shouldn't