PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[#HBC | Mac]

Niko 2:26 am: wow beast post
Niko 2:26 am: from pp
Niko 2:26 am: we did it
Niko 2:26 am: the marth mains did it
Niko 2:26 am: we tricked pp into telling us how to beat falco
Niko 2:26 am: this is a huge victory
Yedispaghetti 2:29 am: lmaooooooooooooooooo

 

[Diakonos]

There are so many notable Falcos, and each has contributed to the metagame in a major way(matchups or innovative pressure or laser usage or combos or whatever). Like, Shiz showed us what it was like to make the most of Falco's Fsmash and aggro pressure, AND he took top spots at tournaments. Chops showed us amazing laser usage and a lot of psychological prowess Falco was capable of, which earned him great notoriety despite his iffy tournament results. Mango did loads for Falco's shield pressure and creative approach'ing/edgeguarding/combo game, and of course gave us the autocancel Bair. Zhu showed us what a very solid Falco that made good use of all of his aspects, offensive and defensive, could do. Zhu also takes top spots in tourneys and has been pretty consistent. I don't really know what I do but I keep placing well so I'm probably doing things without knowing it lol.

....

Take this for what you will, but that's just how I feel about things. I mean, I also feel like pretty much everyone sucks vs Puff(Mango has said this before too) and that's part of why some puffs are successful/as successful as they are, but people are like that to an extent about Falco too, so lol I guess.

I feel like you have spoken the truth. I have never thought about it that way.

Falcos have pushed it really far-- they've kept the metagame interesting in my opinion. The new platform game, the platform lasers, the aerial out of lightshield on a platform... Marths just aren't giving that kick of novelty anymore.

Good job, Falcos. Marths haven't done much except watch their opponents learn how to avoid their g4ys. The uthrow reverse fair ken combo isn't revolutionary. The only way I can see Marths moving forward is to make better use of IASA frames, ledgecancelling, powershielding, and crouch cancelling.

I'm only good at two of those.

 

[Dr Peepee]

0 - the moon

rough ball park

dawwwww darn it. guess I'll test things.

Niko 2:26 am: wow beast post
Niko 2:26 am: from pp
Niko 2:26 am: we did it
Niko 2:26 am: the marth mains did it
Niko 2:26 am: we tricked pp into telling us how to beat falco
Niko 2:26 am: this is a huge victory
Yedispaghetti 2:29 am: lmaooooooooooooooooo

LOL glad I could help. XD

Now accept that Marth ***** dang it!!!! =p

I feel like you have spoken the truth. I have never thought about it that way.

Falcos have pushed it really far-- they've kept the metagame interesting in my opinion. The new platform game, the platform lasers, the aerial out of lightshield on a platform... Marths just aren't giving that kick of novelty anymore.

Good job, Falcos. Marths haven't done much except watch their opponents learn how to avoid their g4ys. The uthrow reverse fair ken combo isn't revolutionary. The only way I can see Marths moving forward is to make better use of IASA frames, ledgecancelling, powershielding, and crouch cancelling.

I'm only good at two of those.

They need to use some of the oldschool tricks and combine it with better use of shield DI, WD OOS(****!!!!!), and easier edgeguards(some of you Marths make it look hard still WTF) for starters, besides that stuff you said. =p

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've been using those anti-Falco tactics for ages, but I still suck at the matchup.

Maybe I should use more Niko-like dash attacks under lasers. That strategy is soo cheap.

 

[Diakonos]

I think I can powershield 70% of lasers I see coming.

I played Chops the week after apex in friendlies. Powershielding is still beast, even against him.

I freely confess that my vs. falco game revolves around Falco having to accomodate his playstyle to me because of powershields and effective use of shield. My punishes aren't nearly as **** as some other marths, but it doesn't matter cuz they're good enough to get Falco off the stage or above me.

I do not know a Falco who I think would beat me every time

[except PP]

 

[Winston]

yeah, ground tech is a problem for sheik hahaha

The only Sheik move that you actually get frame advantage from ground teching is dash attack right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think I can powershield 70% of lasers I see coming.

I played Chops the week after apex in friendlies. Powershielding is still beast, even against him.

I freely confess that my vs. falco game revolves around Falco having to accomodate his playstyle to me because of powershields and effective use of shield. My punishes aren't nearly as **** as some other marths, but it doesn't matter cuz they're good enough to get Falco off the stage or above me.

I do not know a Falco who I think would beat me every time

[except PP]

THIS MAN KNOWS HOW TO FIGHT FALCO AHHHFDKGBSD.GK.FFSKLSG YESSSS

I wish I had played you soooo badly now. =(

You goin to Pound 5?

 

[KirbyKaze]

The only Sheik move that you actually get frame advantage from ground teching is dash attack right?

Silence, non-believer

 

[Dr Peepee]

Aw come on KK lmao

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you want to know everything

You must

Bring me the jade monkey

Before the next full moon

 

[Pi]

iirc even Fox frame-perfect shine OoS is at a 2 frame disadvantage vs. Falco double shine so in super-theory brothers melee I don't think anyone really wants to be in shield vs. Falco.

i'll shield vs. falco

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

@ pp, thanks for answering my questions. I need to step my game up. Being humble is so much easier after taking a nap lol. Wavedash oos to just reset instead of trying to punish is pretty good. Never thought of wd oos for the sole purpose of running away, its pretty good when you think about it! (Samus players do it all the time) falco's shield pressure is just too good that some chars just need to run the hell away! Lol.

 

[choknater]

i think the main thing about chu was that he understood the correct pace of how the ic's are supposed to be played. his balance of patience and knowing when to be aggressive is what set him apart. he had the best balance i think, and even though the rest of us these days know way more gimmicks than chu ever did, it's his decision making on when to approach and when not to that made him good.

as far as ic falco matchup... ic's really just needa find a way to set the pace. i like the specifics in this thread so i'll name some. i've never actually discussed this with falco players before so we can theory bros some counters and stuff, yay.

as far as synced sh blizzard through laser: the reason this works is cuz popo takes the hit while nana continues to move toward falco and creating a wall, while popo gets to do whatever he wants. most stages are pretty small so it's likely that falco will get hit by the blizzard, which could mean a free grab for popo. really really strong tactic for a falco that is lasering, and can even scare him into not lasering (which is still strong for falco but usually he really prefers to laser.)

hahaha i just watched ur old sets with chu and am really deeply thinking about the matchup now.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ pp, thanks for answering my questions. I need to step my game up. Being humble is so much easier after taking a nap lol. Wavedash oos to just reset instead of trying to punish is pretty good. Never thought of wd oos for the sole purpose of running away, its pretty good when you think about it! (Samus players do it all the time) falco's shield pressure is just too good that some chars just need to run the hell away! Lol.

Haha alright I can live with that. Glad I could help man. =)

i think the main thing about chu was that he understood the correct pace of how the ic's are supposed to be played. his balance of patience and knowing when to be aggressive is what set him apart. he had the best balance i think, and even though the rest of us these days know way more gimmicks than chu ever did, it's his decision making on when to approach and when not to that made him good.

as far as ic falco matchup... ic's really just needa find a way to set the pace. i like the specifics in this thread so i'll name some. i've never actually discussed this with falco players before so we can theory bros some counters and stuff, yay.

as far as synced sh blizzard through laser: the reason this works is cuz popo takes the hit while nana continues to move toward falco and creating a wall, while popo gets to do whatever he wants. most stages are pretty small so it's likely that falco will get hit by the blizzard, which could mean a free grab for popo. really really strong tactic for a falco that is lasering, and can even scare him into not lasering (which is still strong for falco but usually he really prefers to laser.)

hahaha i just watched ur old sets with chu and am really deeply thinking about the matchup now.

Chu just played mad smart like that yeah, and that's how I thought all ICs played, really smart. I lost games to some in pools at Apex that did a lot more WD Dsmash'ing.....

First off, can reflector push back the blizzard? I feel like it can but I don't remember. Anyway, shielding is aight against this tactic but I mean popo could just grab. However, if Falco is far enough away he could just shoot popo for the majority of the blizzard I suppose. Maybe the safest option is to just take a platform and try to hit nana as she comes out of lag? Popo could always intercept this though.....blizzard's really good LOL. Guess Falco can't counter that directly, but he can at least keep himself pretty safe by taking higher ground. Maybe it's a good technique ICs could use to get out of a trouble spot, but the slower blizzard startup time could make all of the difference in the world if Falco can hit one/both of them in that time frame.

Falco has to approach ICs usually because of ice blocks and blizzard coming otherwise and something else but I forget what it is, so he isn't going to laser toooo much in this matchup anyway I don't think. ICs are soooo good at stuffing Falco's approaches too with 1 IC hard shield and 1 IC lightshielding and just their psychological edge(Dsmashes/grabs on whiff/mistakes for a technical character is scary). Grabbing also doesn't seem to do much because if you throw one then the other can hit you(yes even out of Dthrow because one climber can shield and hit you or just take the lasers and hit you I think[chu did it to me I think]).

Hmm, we can start with that I suppose.

 

[choknater]

well, the main problem with blizzard is the same problem you always say about SHL: you have to short hop in order for nana to blizzard forward. falco's main escape route is to jump, which isn't a bad option as long as you don't come down on them but instead go to the other side and figure out another way to approach. reflector will defeat the blizzard if you're close enough, but yeah otherwise it's just asking to be punished by popo. blizzard is a hella slow move but provides a great wall in front of ic's to prevent ground approaches in pretty much every matchup.

and yeah i thought falco's dthrow was unpunishable but you're right, popo has enough time to freakin shield, ROLL, and wd toward falco -> something. if you happen to grab popo though, falco is in the money unless CPU nana decides to do something good. basically, it's a huge 50/50 gamble because i'm never sure which IC falco is gonna grab. sometimes it sounds really good for ic's, sometimes it's really good for falco.

in fact, a lot of situations in this matchup are like that. ic's have to seriously commit to stuff if they wanna actually deal heavy damage to falco, cuz they can't afford to just wait until falco messes up. falco's shield pressure and fsmash will push them too the ledge where eventually they're just gonna have to stop blocking and do something.

oh yeah, falco's fsmash haha i hate that move. can't grab it. can't really do anything if he spaces it right, and puts falco in good position.

 

[Dr Peepee]

well, the main problem with blizzard is the same problem you always say about SHL: you have to short hop in order for nana to blizzard forward. falco's main escape route is to jump, which isn't a bad option as long as you don't come down on them but instead go to the other side and figure out another way to approach. reflector will defeat the blizzard if you're close enough, but yeah otherwise it's just asking to be punished by popo. blizzard is a hella slow move but provides a great wall in front of ic's to prevent ground approaches in pretty much every matchup.

and yeah i thought falco's dthrow was unpunishable but you're right, popo has enough time to freakin shield, ROLL, and wd toward falco -> something. if you happen to grab popo though, falco is in the money unless CPU nana decides to do something good. basically, it's a huge 50/50 gamble because i'm never sure which IC falco is gonna grab. sometimes it sounds really good for ic's, sometimes it's really good for falco.

in fact, a lot of situations in this matchup are like that. ic's have to seriously commit to stuff if they wanna actually deal heavy damage to falco, cuz they can't afford to just wait until falco messes up. falco's shield pressure and fsmash will push them too the ledge where eventually they're just gonna have to stop blocking and do something.

oh yeah, falco's fsmash haha i hate that move. can't grab it. can't really do anything if he spaces it right, and puts falco in good position.

I was thinking more of taking a platform? Anyway, I guess I could see the desync comin and attack before the blizzard came out, but I don't really know ways to desync nana so personally I guess that wouldn't matter. XD
I'd suggest holding off on using blizzard until you get farther into a match though. People attack more early on so blizzard lag could get ***** then. Wait until they're trying to feel you out more and then using a slower startup move like that.

Nah, you can do stuff and nana will do it too I think. Like, when I did it to Chu I think he made his nana Dsmash me or something once lmao. Or does it work like that? I feel like it does, but maybe it was just super coincidental timing....I dunno but my experiences grabbing have been pretty bad but I still have to do it and hope one of the ICs hits the other or I throw one before the other can get an input to hit me in time. Just makes Falco's punishes less secure and again adds psychological pressure.

Falco can shield pressure ICs? How? If he tries to aerial shine he gets grabbed due to all of that lag right? I mean, if he delays it a lot maybe not, but then he's not gonna stick around on their shields because that wouldn't be safe with two shields, so they seem safe enough to me.

And I never got why ICs hated Fsmash so much. Just shield DI in and shield grab him....Chu did that to me too lmao.

 

[tw1n]

I do not know a Falco who I think would beat me every time

[except PP]

And probably Mango lol. In terms of powershielding lazers... Axe almost never lazers and he just goes for highly aggressive shield pressure. I'd love to see you play against either of these falcos tho :D

 

[choknater]

ah yeah, i guess taking a platform works, and thank you for telling me about that option cuz now i know what to be aware of for a falco who actually knows how to deal with it hahah. cuz popo can actually do something like sh uair while nana is blizzarding to cover the top too. thats why i really like the nana blizzard thing because for some characters (like puff) popo can basically cover every single option that the opponent tries to do to punish her.

but yeah you're right about holding off on blizzard. the main reason it's good though is because if a falco tends to orient himself horizontally to the ic's, he tends to laser a lot which basically screams out 'blizzard me.' falco on plats is a good idea though, but so is ic's under a plat. i think a good position for falco would be on a side platform with ic's either in the middle (where falco can approach with an aerial or come down with a laser) or on the other side (where falco can come down with a laser)

well, one thing that zhu did to me before was delay his dairs so that he could successfully l cancel them, then shine immediately. idk, i'm not even sure if the shine on the shield has more delay or not? but in most cases i can't shield grab it. i do like the fact though that a spaced nair on shield will push ic's back and he can't shine after. if ic's are shielding, i don't see anything wrong with a delayed aerial cuz it's not like they can let go of shield and do something before falco throws out the aerial

i don't know how to shield DI how do i do it? just DI toward falco during the shield stun?

 

[Dr Peepee]

ah yeah, i guess taking a platform works, and thank you for telling me about that option cuz now i know what to be aware of for a falco who actually knows how to deal with it hahah. cuz popo can actually do something like sh uair while nana is blizzarding to cover the top too. thats why i really like the nana blizzard thing because for some characters (like puff) popo can basically cover every single option that the opponent tries to do to punish her.

but yeah you're right about holding off on blizzard. the main reason it's good though is because if a falco tends to orient himself horizontally to the ic's, he tends to laser a lot which basically screams out 'blizzard me.' falco on plats is a good idea though, but so is ic's under a plat. i think a good position for falco would be on a side platform with ic's either in the middle (where falco can approach with an aerial or come down with a laser) or on the other side (where falco can come down with a laser)

well, one thing that zhu did to me before was delay his dairs so that he could successfully l cancel them, then shine immediately. idk, i'm not even sure if the shine on the shield has more delay or not? but in most cases i can't shield grab it. i do like the fact though that a spaced nair on shield will push ic's back and he can't shine after. if ic's are shielding, i don't see anything wrong with a delayed aerial cuz it's not like they can let go of shield and do something before falco throws out the aerial

i don't know how to shield DI how do i do it? just DI toward falco during the shield stun?

If you Uair though, don't just do it just because it covers stuff, make sure you're watching, or Falco could just drop back through with a laser or something and start to screw with your pressure. Gotta react some to keep your stuff effective.
Ah, but I assume you mean when you're the one with stage control blizzard'ing on Falco. Yeah that's a good idea then. Only other thing I'd know to do would be shield the blizzard or just FH in some direction for stage control. Definitely ****.

You can't a get a blizzard out if Falco is lasering you though, can you?

Yeah that's not what I mean, it's just that the timing is still super tough even if Falco delays the aerial, and I've actually been punished by attacks/WDs OOS to stuff while trying to delay aerial approaches before. Either way, Falco can't stay on ICs' shields since there are two of em haha.

Yeah, basically.

 

[choknater]

hm alright alright. i getchu. and yeah full hopping somewhere is good. from the sounds of the dynamics of this matchup, it seems like falco above ic's on a platform and ic's somewhere on the ground seems to be the most neutral defensive position, because if they are horizontal to each other they have sooo many mixups to mess with each other. in your match vs chu, it really didn't take long at all from being horizontal to getting hit. it's not so much spacing as it is finding a way inside and one of the characters getting *****.

well like i said, sh toward falco and synced blizzard makes popo take the hit and nana blizzard by herself. it's just an ultimate tactic for falco's lasers if he falls into a pattern and know that he's definitely gonna do an SHL. and that's something falcos do a lot cuz theyre scared of approaching. in fact, ic's can pretty much abuse the same idea with aerials, sh ice block, dash attack, anything that moves nana forward. the difference with those though is that it puts her at serious risk, so i usually forgo those and choose the only slightly less rewarding blizzard. i call it the 'laser desynch' LOL

i see hahah. well, i can see why that's the case. theni think i should feel safer in my shield vs falco cuz i usually get mad scared LOL. and i should light shield more.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hm alright alright. i getchu. and yeah full hopping somewhere is good. from the sounds of the dynamics of this matchup, it seems like falco above ic's on a platform and ic's somewhere on the ground seems to be the most neutral defensive position, because if they are horizontal to each other they have sooo many mixups to mess with each other. in your match vs chu, it really didn't take long at all from being horizontal to getting hit. it's not so much spacing as it is finding a way inside and one of the characters getting *****.

well like i said, sh toward falco and synced blizzard makes popo take the hit and nana blizzard by herself. it's just an ultimate tactic for falco's lasers if he falls into a pattern and know that he's definitely gonna do an SHL. and that's something falcos do a lot cuz theyre scared of approaching. in fact, ic's can pretty much abuse the same idea with aerials, sh ice block, dash attack, anything that moves nana forward. the difference with those though is that it puts her at serious risk, so i usually forgo those and choose the only slightly less rewarding blizzard. i call it the 'laser desynch' LOL

i see hahah. well, i can see why that's the case. theni think i should feel safer in my shield vs falco cuz i usually get mad scared LOL. and i should light shield more.

You won't see most Falcos on a platform though unless that blizzard is happening because of the potential of the Uair. Uair is scary lol. Lasers are at least kinda comfortable for a bit vs ICs anway.

Ah, well I like the term laser desync so I'm gonna start using it if you don't mind haha. So, I've been right in assuming it's favorable for Falco to approach sooner in the matchup because things like that blizzard will happen if I don't.

Those double shields though....mmmm too good.

That ice block thing is funny by the way haha. Is that even a good idea vs Falco? Seems like if you just shield you're safe.....

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

go to sleep kevin

 

[choknater]

hm yeah, if falco really does benefit by approaching first then ic's just have to play opportunistically. with such an erratic WD+shield, there's no way falco can space everything perfectly so there IS gonna be an opening SOMEWHERE. there are just so many situations lol. if falco mis-spaces something we can create a death combo with the randomest of options, like tilts, b moves, jab resets, etc. just gotta keep my head clear, falco can just run circles around us sometimes.

as for ice blocks, i've learned from fly that they're pretty much always great to use if falco falls into a laser pattern. or just great to use in general when falco is far away. i never really NEED to force myself to laser desync my way into falco, i can just spam ice blocks and make him come to me. laser desync is just a great way to throw off his tempo if he gets too comfortable with spamming lasers. haha the sh ice block is just something i do if he is really far away. just think of it as a really slow laser. it's humorous the things falco will do to avoid taking the 3%. shield, roll, jump for better position, whatever. the fact that it stops him from lasering is what's important, even if it's just momentarily. i've underestimate ice block before, but now i know how important it is as a projectile.

well yeah, ima sleep and talk more later. this thread is like, the best active melee thread right now. great exchange of ideas, falco's a definitive matchup for every character in melee.

 

[Sage Osaka]

this thread was so good until it started discussing ic's matchup

jk andre <3

still wish we had more marth discussion though

 

[Kanelol]

i'll talk about marth

combo his **** off until you win

 

[Druggedfox]

All of that at that point is hard to say either way though because no Marth ever gets this deep into a match with Falco from what I've seen. I'd love to see/experience such a challenge though to determine the human potential in that situation though....

Been there, done that; thus why I'm so adamantly making my point about this.

Regardless, if you don't think that the fact that adding a layer of play hurts marth as much as it helps him, then we're simply not on common enough ground to discuss the effects of powershielding.

Good luck against diakonos and armada?

 

[Mogwai]

i'll shield vs. falco

Sammus is a cheater and doesn't count. Bowser too.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Needs more discussion on the Peach matchup

 

[stingers]

falco wins 60/40

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Kevin, play me at Josh's.

Also, Mogwai, your sig ****ed with me so hard. because everytime I moved my mouse to the right and back, the hand moved to the right and back. and then I just stopped moving and realized it wasn't me.

good stuff.

 

[JPOBS]

PP gets "thanks for answering my question" for saying the same stuff i did

i get argued with for pages on end.

i need to win tournaments so people just accept what i say more

 

[Fly_Amanita]

A few things:

well, the main problem with blizzard is the same problem you always say about SHL: you have to short hop in order for nana to blizzard forward.

There are lots of variations of this that don't require jumping. For example, wavedash forward -> turn around synced blizzard is solid; it makes Popo blizzard backwards and Nana blizzard forward, but then the laser hits Popo, so the effect is pretty much the same as the short hop blizzard. You can also just wavedash or walk forward and input the blizzard command when Popo is in hitstun from a laser, which has the advantage of not requiring any guesswork, but has the disadvantage of the blizzard coming out slightly later than it would otherwise.

I was thinking more of taking a platform? Anyway, I guess I could see the desync comin and attack before the blizzard came out, but I don't really know ways to desync nana so personally I guess that wouldn't matter. XD
I'd suggest holding off on using blizzard until you get farther into a match though. People attack more early on so blizzard lag could get ***** then. Wait until they're trying to feel you out more and then using a slower startup move like that.

If you're talking about beating the short hop blizzard, the easiest way is to just not shoot a laser when they do it (assuming they're guessing rather than reacting to the lasers, which I think most ICs do). Then both ICs get stuck in the laggy blizzard animation and you can just punish them from above however you please.

Nah, you can do stuff and nana will do it too I think. Like, when I did it to Chu I think he made his nana Dsmash me or something once lmao. Or does it work like that? I feel like it does, but maybe it was just super coincidental timing....I dunno but my experiences grabbing have been pretty bad but I still have to do it and hope one of the ICs hits the other or I throw one before the other can get an input to hit me in time. Just makes Falco's punishes less secure and again adds psychological pressure.

I think you can control Nana right when the dthrow starts, but typically lose control shortly afterwards. If you grab ICs when they're shielding, you don't usually have to worry about a smash since it's hard to quickly get Nana out of the shield while on the ground. I usually just tell her to short hop blizzard when I get grabbed, which kind of works. I actually should test it more.

Falco can shield pressure ICs? How? If he tries to aerial shine he gets grabbed due to all of that lag right? I mean, if he delays it a lot maybe not, but then he's not gonna stick around on their shields because that wouldn't be safe with two shields, so they seem safe enough to me.

And I never got why ICs hated Fsmash so much. Just shield DI in and shield grab him....Chu did that to me too lmao.

Falco can shield pressure ICs safely, but it requires a lot of precision. Mango can pillar me while always being slightly out of my grab range whenever I'm not in lag, but since no other Falcos really do this to me, I'm assuming it's hard.

I don't think ICs can shield-grab a really well-spaced fsmash, but yeah, they can definitely punish most of them.

You can't a get a blizzard out if Falco is lasering you though, can you?

ICs pretty much always can. If the lasers are actually hitting them and not the shield, like I mentioned earlier, Nana can blizzard while Popo takes a hit. If ICs are in their shield, then they can either do belay OoS -> Nana drift back -> blizzard, which is a little iffy, but can work, or the squall hammer OoS desynch -> blizzard, which is better and should pretty much always work. 90% of ICs don't actually do this, but they are legitimate things to worry about.


One thing I want to emphasize is that it's really not that necessary for Falco to laser all that often in this match-up. They still have lots of uses, of course, but be aware of funky blizzard tricks.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

PP gets "thanks for answering my question" for saying the same stuff i did

i get argued with for pages on end.

i need to win tournaments so people just accept what i say more

lol

i thanked him, because i was looking for his input when i was asking my questions

your answers to my questions were legit too =D

 

[Dr Peepee]

hm yeah, if falco really does benefit by approaching first then ic's just have to play opportunistically. with such an erratic WD+shield, there's no way falco can space everything perfectly so there IS gonna be an opening SOMEWHERE. there are just so many situations lol. if falco mis-spaces something we can create a death combo with the randomest of options, like tilts, b moves, jab resets, etc. just gotta keep my head clear, falco can just run circles around us sometimes.

as for ice blocks, i've learned from fly that they're pretty much always great to use if falco falls into a laser pattern. or just great to use in general when falco is far away. i never really NEED to force myself to laser desync my way into falco, i can just spam ice blocks and make him come to me. laser desync is just a great way to throw off his tempo if he gets too comfortable with spamming lasers. haha the sh ice block is just something i do if he is really far away. just think of it as a really slow laser. it's humorous the things falco will do to avoid taking the 3%. shield, roll, jump for better position, whatever. the fact that it stops him from lasering is what's important, even if it's just momentarily. i've underestimate ice block before, but now i know how important it is as a projectile.

well yeah, ima sleep and talk more later. this thread is like, the best active melee thread right now. great exchange of ideas, falco's a definitive matchup for every character in melee.

Agreed sir. I meant the ice block dash attack though, not ice blocks in general. XD Chu showed me that ice block spam on laser spam raaapes.

this thread was so good until it started discussing ic's matchup

jk andre <3

still wish we had more marth discussion though

Uhhh, well M2K isn't around and Druggedfox and I disagree soooo you'll have to start it yourself if you want discussion. =p You could always ask a question though.

Been there, done that; thus why I'm so adamantly making my point about this.

Regardless, if you don't think that the fact that adding a layer of play hurts marth as much as it helps him, then we're simply not on common enough ground to discuss the effects of powershielding.

Good luck against diakonos and armada?

Are you and the Marth the same skill level? Even so, it would nicer if there was much more exposure to this tactic than what you've been through alone with that one other person.

I think Marth needs to go more in-depth and mental to be effective, so yeah, I guess we do. Ah well, I'm glad we finally got this discussion sorted out. =) It was fun haha.

OH COME ON no need to by cynical sir. =p

Kevin, play me at Josh's.

Also, Mogwai, your sig ****ed with me so hard. because everytime I moved my mouse to the right and back, the hand moved to the right and back. and then I just stopped moving and realized it wasn't me.

good stuff.

Aight dude.

PP gets "thanks for answering my question" for saying the same stuff i did

i get argued with for pages on end.

i need to win tournaments so people just accept what i say more

Yeah I saw you saying some of the stuff I did. I appreciate your efforts though, at the least. =)

A few things:



There are lots of variations of this that don't require jumping. For example, wavedash forward -> turn around synced blizzard is solid; it makes Popo blizzard backwards and Nana blizzard forward, but then the laser hits Popo, so the effect is pretty much the same as the short hop blizzard. You can also just wavedash or walk forward and input the blizzard command when Popo is in hitstun from a laser, which has the advantage of not requiring any guesswork, but has the disadvantage of the blizzard coming out slightly later than it would otherwise.



If you're talking about beating the short hop blizzard, the easiest way is to just not shoot a laser when they do it (assuming they're guessing rather than reacting to the lasers, which I think most ICs do). Then both ICs get stuck in the laggy blizzard animation and you can just punish them from above however you please.



I think you can control Nana right when the dthrow starts, but typically lose control shortly afterwards. If you grab ICs when they're shielding, you don't usually have to worry about a smash since it's hard to quickly get Nana out of the shield while on the ground. I usually just tell her to short hop blizzard when I get grabbed, which kind of works. I actually should test it more.



Falco can shield pressure ICs safely, but it requires a lot of precision. Mango can pillar me while always being slightly out of my grab range whenever I'm not in lag, but since no other Falcos really do this to me, I'm assuming it's hard.

I don't think ICs can shield-grab a really well-spaced fsmash, but yeah, they can definitely punish most of them.



ICs pretty much always can. If the lasers are actually hitting them and not the shield, like I mentioned earlier, Nana can blizzard while Popo takes a hit. If ICs are in their shield, then they can either do belay OoS -> Nana drift back -> blizzard, which is a little iffy, but can work, or the squall hammer OoS desynch -> blizzard, which is better and should pretty much always work. 90% of ICs don't actually do this, but they are legitimate things to worry about.


One thing I want to emphasize is that it's really not that necessary for Falco to laser all that often in this match-up. They still have lots of uses, of course, but be aware of funky blizzard tricks.

So, lasering is used more to condition things like that blizzard then? Cool. It feels so much more awkward to laser as a means of pure conditioning/baiting for a blizzard instead of a means of approaching or control(which I suppose can still happen but just not as much). Is blizzard of a more standard IC trick these days, or is it just the better players doing it? Wobbles, Chu, J-Flo, and Nintendude all didn't use Blizzard vs me when I played them, so I'm assuming this tactic is newer or just not as good as I sort of feel it is?

So, it's best to grab popo then? It's hard to grab the right one though when they're moving so quickly, but I'll work on it.

What in the world does Mango do to pillar your shield? I assume some variation of Nair Shine but I don't really know.

Nana can Blizzard after using a B move OOS? Wow I'm super confused by this haha. Or is this all assuming they're getting hit by a laser? That paragraph confused me mad hard, though it was probably the most important one.

Yeah I never felt particularly safe lasering in this matchup as is, so it's good to know I was on the right track there. Are ICs just afraid of shield pressure then? That's pretty scary to Falcos too since there are two shields and you can manipulate them (one hard shield and one light shield) in different ways as well.

 

[BBQ°]

dr peepee, you're wrong on a lot of the marth vs falco matchup. You'll see this is all foolish in 2-3 years. Just sayin.

 

[choknater]

Agreed sir. I meant the ice block dash attack though, not ice blocks in general. XD Chu showed me that ice block spam on laser spam raaapes.

hahah, eh? i meant ice block and dash attack separately. idk what you read, hahah. i meant that sh ice block and dash attack are both moves that can get through lasers

So, lasering is used more to condition things like that blizzard then? Cool. It feels so much more awkward to laser as a means of pure conditioning/baiting for a blizzard instead of a means of approaching or control(which I suppose can still happen but just not as much). Is blizzard of a more standard IC trick these days, or is it just the better players doing it? Wobbles, Chu, J-Flo, and Nintendude all didn't use Blizzard vs me when I played them, so I'm assuming this tactic is newer or just not as good as I sort of feel it is?

So, it's best to grab popo then? It's hard to grab the right one though when they're moving so quickly, but I'll work on it.

What in the world does Mango do to pillar your shield? I assume some variation of Nair Shine but I don't really know.

Nana can Blizzard after using a B move OOS? Wow I'm super confused by this haha. Or is this all assuming they're getting hit by a laser? That paragraph confused me mad hard, though it was probably the most important one.

Yeah I never felt particularly safe lasering in this matchup as is, so it's good to know I was on the right track there. Are ICs just afraid of shield pressure then? That's pretty scary to Falcos too since there are two shields and you can manipulate them (one hard shield and one light shield) in different ways as well.

as far as i know, i was the first one to do the blizzard through laser trick, fly adopted it and created a bunch of his own variations. it is fairly new, but more often than not it's better for ic's to just chill and wait for falco to mess up, which is probably why the other ic's didn't do it. ic players all have their own playstyle cuz theres so many tools vs falco lol. i like this tactic because it can be a pacemaker for ic's, one of the few aggressive things they can do vs falco.

to your question about OOS belay, yes. if you up-B OOS, only nana gets launched and popo stays on the ground in his up B animation. nana goes to a height between sh and fh height, and she can do any aerial/block/blizzard as if it's a normal jump.

i don't know about the squall OOS thing, lol, i'd like to know about that from fly too O_O

the main problem with shield pressure is not really the fact that we're afraid to get shield poked or something, it's just that shield pressure pushes our sliding shields toward the ledge, and we don't have really fast counter moves like other characters do (fox/falco shine, sheik nair, peach nair.) the best option is usually to wd out, or roll, but assuming falco is more toward the center of the stage, none of those really put ic's in a good position.

i have played the matchup before as falco.. it doesn't feel that stressful, usually i just hit the ic's shield once or twice before retreating again. even though lasers are weaker in this matchup than they are in other matchups, they're still good enough to set the pace of how ic's are gonna act and move. to bait/condition stuff, like you said.

falco's moves in general have good enough range to push their shield back and not get shield grabbed. it's not like i can shield DI fsmash every time, or judge whether it's in shield grab range. most ic's just shield and wd back to safety. turn around utilt, ftilt, and even jab->shine are all good vs ic's shield. even if we have good shields, it's just annoying for them to be hit. maybe i just don't like being in my shield LOL.

perhaps i should learn how to shield DI and make it a habit. im not sure how big of an effect it has

haha kevin whenever you come over here, play me and fly :D man im pretty hyped for you to come over to wc if you ever do cuz there are a lot of unique and exciting players to play against here.

 

[Druggedfox]

<3 PP? Nah, you better **** armada

 

[Dr Peepee]

hahah, eh? i meant ice block and dash attack separately. idk what you read, hahah. i meant that sh ice block and dash attack are both moves that can get through lasers






as far as i know, i was the first one to do the blizzard through laser trick, fly adopted it and created a bunch of his own variations. it is fairly new, but more often than not it's better for ic's to just chill and wait for falco to mess up, which is probably why the other ic's didn't do it. ic players all have their own playstyle cuz theres so many tools vs falco lol. i like this tactic because it can be a pacemaker for ic's, one of the few aggressive things they can do vs falco.

to your question about OOS belay, yes. if you up-B OOS, only nana gets launched and popo stays on the ground in his up B animation. nana goes to a height between sh and fh height, and she can do any aerial/block/blizzard as if it's a normal jump.

i don't know about the squall OOS thing, lol, i'd like to know about that from fly too O_O

the main problem with shield pressure is not really the fact that we're afraid to get shield poked or something, it's just that shield pressure pushes our sliding shields toward the ledge, and we don't have really fast counter moves like other characters do (fox/falco shine, sheik nair, peach nair.) the best option is usually to wd out, or roll, but assuming falco is more toward the center of the stage, none of those really put ic's in a good position.

i have played the matchup before as falco.. it doesn't feel that stressful, usually i just hit the ic's shield once or twice before retreating again. even though lasers are weaker in this matchup than they are in other matchups, they're still good enough to set the pace of how ic's are gonna act and move. to bait/condition stuff, like you said.

falco's moves in general have good enough range to push their shield back and not get shield grabbed. it's not like i can shield DI fsmash every time, or judge whether it's in shield grab range. most ic's just shield and wd back to safety. turn around utilt, ftilt, and even jab->shine are all good vs ic's shield. even if we have good shields, it's just annoying for them to be hit. maybe i just don't like being in my shield LOL.

perhaps i should learn how to shield DI and make it a habit. im not sure how big of an effect it has

haha kevin whenever you come over here, play me and fly :D man im pretty hyped for you to come over to wc if you ever do cuz there are a lot of unique and exciting players to play against here.

Ohhh I see, well then yeah I agree. I definitely misread. XD

So that tactic is more of an aggressive one? Yeah that makes sense. Since Falco has to come to ICs anyway, it doesn't seem like there's a lot to lose if they don't use this tactic, but it sure could catch Falco off guard.

Wow belay OOS is sick then. I wish I could play against some of that so I could see what it's like. How fast does that come out btw?

But Falco can't really pressure ICs shields for long, can he? I mean, since it's twice the stun I'd think not, but I dunno. Mango did it, so I guess it's doable haha. Hmm, if that's the case, then I'll need to become more comfortable shield pressuring ICs.
Do you ever shield DI the pressure away? You should.

I guess it just feels more stressful since I feel like all of my stuff is so much less safe than usual haha.

Those pokes won't do too much vs ICs I don't think, but I guess they're always fun mixups.

Yeah, Cali has a ton of people I'd love play. One day I'll get out there haha.



Edit: <33 DF

 

[forward]

DRPP I liked your up tilts and overall pacing in your GF set with M2K. Up tilt used to be one of my favorite moves but I think it went away once shine/dair juggles became consistent. Next time I use Falco I'm going to try to add that to my game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samoose is not a character

She's a popular smoothie

Uhhhh

Get behind characters with Falco

So you won't be shield grabbed

Then they have to attack OOS, roll, sidestep, hold block, or WD

so **** them

**** THEM

Samoose of course doesn't count because she's not a character