@PP
The number one way around powershield grab is spacing, imo. If you're carefully spacing your lasers, you'll always have enough time to buffer a spotdodge, shine, jab, or something. I count those all as solid ways around powershield grab, and the only time they don't work for me is when the opponent is actually moving towards me with the powershield.
I understand that your arm can be grabbed, and that the shine doesn't have much range, but can't you time them differently? If your arm is getting grabbed, that means you're jabbing too late/early or perhaps that you weren't at a good spacing for jab to be the right move choice?
Also, about DI'ing the lasers: it's just a precaution that I'll be holding back. If they don't powershield the laser, that means they're in their shield, and I can easily react to the fact that nothing hit me. On the other hand, if they do powershield it, yay I'm already DI'ing it correctly. Even if someone knows how to powershield well, its not a reason to quit shooting lasers; no one is 100% consistent, and there are many ways to make it harder. For example, both high and low lasers are significantly more difficult to powershield, as you know. You've even said yourself to shoot low lasers then just short hop over them...
I guess my main issue with this is: why would falco be lasering close enough to his opponent that powershield --> grab would actually work? It's awareness of spacing, and positioning. Just as there are times you don't want to laser because let's say fox has enough time to run forward upsmash or something, there are times you do'nt laser because if they powershield it, it wouldn't be safe. Powershield grab is really no different in my opinion than any other situation: you have to know which positions its safe to laser in, and which positions you can actually get punished for lasering in.
This post was more a rant on different ideas than actually addressing anything specific... but its all there somewhere =P
Careful spacing? That limits you to not going in with lasers already, so Marth already has some control. Add in the human surprise element of having a laser reflected you didn't expect/Marth dashing into powershield and it becomes very effective.
Besides, it's not like Marth can't bait allll of that stuff since he's put Falco on the defensive anyway. Heck, he could even powershield to charge Fsmash and beat pretty much all of those options.
You're jabbing instinctively because they're too far to shine, and you think you have the time/reaction time to set up a well-spaced/timed jab? No way. Maybe you can vary the timing after you've been punished some, but Marth leads and Falco follows in that mixup scenario.
Then holding back detracts from your actual approach/movement after lasering! If the fact that Marth MIGHT powershield is already affecting your movement and approaches, then it's a powerful technique in my opinion.
Also, you're locked into one approach when you approach over a reflected laser like that, and I don't believe you can FF whatever you do well then either, or at least that's the way it works out sometimes. I mean if Marth rushes in after a powershield every time then lol **** for that technique, but if he just chills or walks forward after one then it's easy to see that coming again. All of that at that point is hard to say either way though because no Marth ever gets this deep into a match with Falco from what I've seen. I'd love to see/experience such a challenge though to determine the human potential in that situation though....
People just dash in unexpectedly sometimes? It's not like lasers just STOP Marth from moving period, despite popular belief. But I mean, why grab anyway? You could do WHATEVER you wanted to really. If Dtilt is better, then dtilt. If Fsmash is better, then by all means cut up some turkey. Marth has massive range he can abuse and start combos with/kill with(who's expecting a powershield laser to Fsmash? no one.), but yeah grab is probably the best option, so it'll be the one that's scariest and is totally accessible from a powershield. Of the Falcos that don't lock up when they happens, the rest could probably have their knee-jerk defensive actions baited and grabbed I bet.
WD to powershield, dash into powershield, fallthrough platform to powershield? Who's to say that Falco can accurately prepare for all of these things every second of every match? Not to mention that FALCO HAS TO SHORT HOP TO LASER. It takes a while for him to jump, for the gun to come out, and then for the bullet to finally fire. People who know what to look for CAN and WILL look for these things and have an idea of when they can get away with their movement and still get the powershield off at a closer spacing than what Falco would be comfortable with.
PP, you said that falco has alot of holes in his shield pressure? could you explain to me what options marth has vs falco when he's being shield pressured?
marth has counter out of shield, (only works if used during the very small window when falco decides to do late aerials, and would require ridiculous reaction speeds)
theres like aerial out of shield, which gets you NOWHERE if you're getting shield pressured.
upb out of shield works i guess if the falco sucks at tech skill.
then theres roll... it gets you *****, wavedash out of shield doesnt work at all vs flawless shield pressure.
falco can always do things like shine-> grab, or double shine.
what is a marth supposed to do when a falco shield pressures behind the marth?
do you really expect falcos to really stop lasering because marth can powershield? theres not a single marth that can powershield consistently enough and get a grab off it, except for mew2king who i'm pretty sure doesn't powershield 100% of the time when he wants to. if the falco expect powershielding, then he can just run to the other side of the stage and spam more lasers. marth can't punish off a powershielded laser once the falco is a certain distance away.
Just because marth can powershield, that all of a sudden makes his shield good?
power shielding isnt anywhere as easy as spamming lasers or flawless shield pressure. Alot of the time even if you powershield one of falco's aerials the falco, the shine will still come out before you can grab. then the marth gets shine --> combowtf'd into oblivion.
people talk about powershielding like its easy. the falco can laser high, medium, or low, which makes power shielding alot different on the timings.
I guess you mean when you get stuck in your shield because you got hit by a laser? Alright then.
-Fair OOS:
used for countering lasers that come in closer/attacks or grabs that come in after a farther laser. Typically used to stuff approaches, but maybe if tippered could start something hot. Keeps Falco overthinking/complicating his approaches, which works out for Marth in that he can choose when to go up and just whup/scare Falco anytime he feels like it.
-Counter:
Not the best these days, but still can do a number on Falco's who get confident in their approaches. Beats lasers and attacks, and doesn't have a bad cooldown time. Can be done OOS too, so it gives you added psychological advantages while shielding.
-WD OOS:
THE BEST OPTION. Can be used defensively out of Falco's shield pressure(to Fsmash or grab or to simply reset the situation if you so choose). And then, can be used aggressively to hit Falco while he's trying to set up an approach. Grab/jab/Dtilt/Fsmash/Ftilt/Utilt, I bet all of those moves would be useful out of a WD either way, but it depends on the situation/conditioning/preference. Obviously you could just do nothing but it's so **** that you can react with whatever and I dunno just ranting. People need to use this better.
up-B OOS:
used when Falco tries to aerial-shine a shield for too long. falco tends to DI badly and die from this so it *****.
Take the laser: people need to do this more. You can do this to counter if someone comes in, or shield when they think they get a free hit and maybe mess em up, or you could Utilt/Ftilt/Fsmash to combo/kill them because they won't be DI'ing well if they're trying to SHFFL/laser, or you could even move back if you had to I guess. Plus, if they don't come in right away(which I'd be VERY surprised by since it's a Falco and laser hit=let's start a combo video to half of them....so yeah psychological advantage there too), then you get to move around/hit them/bait, which nullifies the point of the laser because YOU STILL HAVE YOUR MOBILITY.
Lightshield: good but kinda underused vs Falco. Keeps pressure from lasting too long vs Marth, and also helps avoid those pesky shield pokes that happen sometimes.
Platforms: Falco can't really do a lot about Marth on a platform. He can shoot him and maybe jump up and shine, but any type of attack usually loses to Fair, and then Marth can get under Falco and ****, or just **** right there. Marth making Falco come over avoids the problems laser present in the first place, and so even if you can't bait Falco you can still **** him for coming over/gimp him/whatever.
finally, you can Ftilt/Utilt/Fsmash as the laser comes at you and trade with the laser:
This is most common with the Fsmash, but the others could work too. Fsmash starts higher up, and Falco has to jump when he SHs, so it just make sense that trading an Fsmash for a laser is pretty good. And if it doesn't work on a particular approach, then you get your shield game to back it up since the laser won't stun you longer enough to be directly comboed by anything.
okay so those last ones weren't shield things but they're mad good.
Also, all of Falco's shield pressure has holes! Shine grab beats just shielding, double shine beats defensive stuff after shine, and shine nair beats defensive stuff after shine sometimes but also puts Falco safely away from Marth. Shine grab won't do much if you smash DI the Uthrow lasers up, double shine is okay if you just shield it and then WD OOS to beat whatever Falco does afterward more than likely, and nair shine nair......just hold shield then WD OOS away when he'd done lol and it's just that you lost some shield and you're fine.
Shield pressuring behind Marth? Easy, just WD OOS away. If that's not working, then shield DI away first so you'll be pushed far enough away to pull it off.
Powershield is nice, but I think Marth could do without it, though that may not be in his best interest. Marth's shield ***** because he can do so much out of it vs Falco's stuff and turn it into a nice counterattacking/offensive tool.
ive experimented with it a lot years ago
We should sit down and test it sometime. =) I'd love to see the results myself.
ok, so marth can escape the shield pressure. he rolls, gets lasered again, bam he's stuck in his shield and again stuck in the same situation as before.
falco can position himself so he can't get grabbed. you can shield pressure marth, and while you're shield pressuring you can fade away out of shield grab range, or you can "move behind marth" while pressuring him and then all of a sudden all of marths out of shield things are useless. and the more you stay in the shield, the more likely you are to get shield poked, since marth's shield sucks.
yes fair out of shield comes out in like 7 frames, but you also have to take into account the shield stun that the marth gets from his shield being hit, and also the fact that fair hitbox comes out from the top first, then goes down to the bottom, which requires more frames for it to actually hit the falco.
and let's say that the up-b or fair out of shield DOES hit the falco.
are there any followups to fair out of shield or upb out of shield? marths fair can be crouch canceled into shine or forward smash, or anything really. here are some of the things that falco can do off a crouch cancel .. off the top of my head (i'm in class right now, so i might not cover them all) crouch cancel --> running dair, crouch cancel --> running nair, crouch cancel --> shine, crouch cancel---> fsmash
all of falco's options are very safe, will lead into huge combo's, or a few crucial hits that leave marth in a very vulnerable state.
Marth gets lasered out of his roll WHILE HE'S FARTHER FROM FALCO. He gets to WD OOS away if he wants! He's soo much safer if he gets lasered out of his roll, it's ridiculous. That even ends some of his roll lag so he can put up his shield faster! That's not a bad thing at all. Much better to be lasered than Dair'd/shine'd in my opinion.
Fair could combo, and up-B could kill/set up for an edgeguard, but why does there have to be a follow up? Isn't it good enough that you can put that psychological pressure on Falco? That he's now scared to try what he did before on you, and that you can now take advantage of that better by approaching him for a change while he's deciding how to bait you into doing that defensive thing again? You get rewarded LATER, when you hit those big combos/gimps that you couldn't get initially because your opponent was too confident in his decisions to let that happen. That's how you beat Falco, you scare him/make him slow down on his move choices and take advantage with your great range.
