PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Niko45]

I'm being negative o_O

anyway yea it does nullify your point because I don't understand why I would shield DI back into potential pressure unless I'm completely hard reading a fade aerial as opposed to just no DI or DIing away to be completely safe and watch you whiff and THEN fair you or whatever I want.

 

[leffen]

We were talking about what to do vs instant retreating aerial and DI'ing in prevents him from just doing shine->wavedash back/laser/jump away when he realizes that he cannot pressure you safely anymore.

This is yomi layer 2 stuff, and it does NOT nullify my point. Theres also the fact that you could be falling of a edge/platform if you continue to do no shield DI so it certainly helps that you can punish instant retreating aerial with shield DI in.

Saying it nullifies my point is the same thing as saying that the option of doing jumpasap->sideb nullifies all other recoveries >______> (because its the "best" option")

 

[JPOBS]

The issue isn't so much as the spacing prior to the aerial, but how they fade away. Falco has to do the actual jump backwards where he flips, not just jump and then drift backwards. It makes a huge difference, and most people can't nair after a jump backwards (dair is really easy cause you can just c-stick it).

Also, yeah Niko, stop being so goddamned negative ya big idiot. jeez

so you're talking about something like

shine-> jump backwards -> late nair right before landing? Thats ****ing weird and i've never seen that before.

I thought we were talking about "the mango"/DC

 

[knightpraetor]

i see super smash theory brothers is still alive and well..

edit: man all the talking stopped...

i just thought it was amusing that I come to the forums and we have people arguing about whether fade away moves can get out of range of marth's fair out of shield as if that's significant...(if you weren't in range i would just hop with you and still gain advantage)

and then we have someone reply to the post with a basic "just shield DI, noob" response...

it's like the epitome of smash board debates.

 

[Bones0]

so you're talking about something like

shine-> jump backwards -> late nair right before landing? Thats ****ing weird and i've never seen that before.

I thought we were talking about "the mango"/DC

No, not late nair. Early nair, but jump back as opposed to jump straight up fade back. Different. Just try fading away on nairs and you'll realize there's a significant difference between jumping back and fading back.

 

[knightpraetor]

in response to earlier, wasn't OC3 the only major tournament that M2k lost to a fox in? I can remember one other tournament where he lost with marth in winners but came back and won...but other than that I only have memories of foxes dying left and right

what about ken's era? didn't he only lose to falco, not fox?

 

[Jake13]

Ken lost to chillin @ some tourney in MD/VA. I forgot what its called but mlgbach has a montage of it on youtube

And lol @ m2k losing to pc just so he could 6-0 him in gfs at FCD

 

[Deleted member]

chillin knocked ken out of winners bracket i think at Game Over on january 2nd 2004 in woodbridge VA. it was my third tournament.

i watched pc vs m2k winners finals at FCD. FCD was on a large basketball court with a stage at one end, and the set was played on the stage. i watched pc beat m2k with falco 3 matches in a row, not horribly but convincingly enough. a quick 3-0. when m2k got up, I said "what happened?" and he said "Nothing, he just played better than me." I asked him if he was upset and he said no. I said ok let's go grind some matches out so you do better when you play him next. i think somewhere in there he played chu, and then met me at the opposite end of the court area where the main TV was and we sat down and played. we played probably 20 minutes of just fox dittos on FD (we played that MU so ****ing much), and i went from 3 stocking him to 2 stocking him to going even and then i lost the last one before they announced the finals. I watched a calm and steady m2k 3-0 pc in 2 sets in probably the best i've ever seen him play personally. it's not so much that he played bad i think so much as he just needed to relax a little and to loosen up, clear the head, etc.

i'm not sure i could beat twitch, zelda isn't a fan of fast techy foxes, or any fox for that matter. i could probably do it as a few of the top tiers though.

 

[Merkuri]

M2k also lost to Chillin at Evo 2007 in case anyone forgot that.

 

[Druggedfox]

Wasnt that 1 game sets or some other weird ruleset?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought it was mango that beat M2K at that tourney

 

[Merkuri]

I thought it was mango that beat M2K at that tourney

Mango knocked him out of winners and Chillin knocked him out of losers.

 

[strawhats]

Mango knocked him out of winners and Chillin knocked him out of losers.

mango and m2k were placed in the same pool where m2k lost to mango (sheik vs puff) and m2k didn't make it out. Apparently EVO World 2k7 was run Gauntlet style, which is like a b01 elimination in pools. mango eliminated m2k here with 1 victory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4jyb9r4wE

Basically m2k got pool ****ed and never made it into bracket. I don't know of mk ever playing or losing to chillin at Evo.

 

[Merkuri]

mango and m2k were placed in the same pool where m2k lost to mango (sheik vs puff) and m2k didn't make it out. Apparently EVO World 2k7 was run Gauntlet style, which is like a b01 elimination in pools. mango eliminated m2k here with 1 victory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4jyb9r4wE

Basically m2k got pool ****ed and never made it into bracket. I don't know of mk ever playing or losing to chillin at Evo.

That can't be right. It couldn't be run gauntlet style since pool are what separated the top 8 into both winners and losers bracket. Meaning M2k would have had to lost twice to be eliminated from the tourney. I think I read in one of Alpha Zealot's articles that M2k lost to both Mango and Chillin.

 

[Deleted member]

pools was single elim and due to some occurrence at the tournament, the pools matches became best of one i think right as that set started. it was basically just a mix of horribly bad luck/timing.

but yeah m2k lost a single match to mango and was out of the tournament. this is why we run tournaments and told the evo crew to **** off.

 

[CK Momentum]

The role of dashdancing.

So I have been thinking alot about this, and I've been missing alot of punishes because i just randomly sh, or dd in front of them but can we talk about the role of dash dancing? Currently, this is how I use (or at least think about) dd.

1. spacing at neutral: helps falco to maintain a distance from the other character he is comfortable with.

2. baiting stuff when they are shielding, prone, near the ledge. I think dd can often scare people into doing something falco can punish, (i.e. falcon is near the ledge, u can get him to nair oos, or fj then hit him blah blah)

I mean, falco is about as quick as danny devito when it comes to dd though, so I think it's also pretty important to mix in lasers, to help stuff approaches cos u can't always run away. I think my ideas about DD make sense to me at least when I try to articulate them in my notebook//here.

But lookit, when I dd in front of a prone or shielding player they can OFTEN reset just by rolling away, how does falco safely hit that? I think part of it is I'm overrespecting the get up attack//oos aerials wayyy tooo much, therefore not DD close enough.

 

[Battlecow]

Not just one match, one match on mangoland, lol. Poor m2k.

 

[Rubyiris]

if you're DDing vs shield, you're looking to bait a reaction, ANY reaction. Keep note of what they do, and poise yourself to punish that reaction again next time the situation pops up.

But, depending on the roll, you have a ****ing gun.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I mean, falco is about as quick as danny devito when it comes to dd though,

LMAO

Also, what Ruby said. I've been thinking about this recently and the most useful advice I came up with is "don't be too greedy". Falco is not Fox/Marth/Falcon/Sheik: he's SLOW and his DD game sucks. You can't cover all the options on reaction as you would do with those characters. When you're DDing, you've gotta cover the few options your opponent is likely going to pick and "nevermind" the other ones. If they roll away don't get frustrated because you let them go away safely, just close the space, shut down their options and start pressuring again. They'll eventually get to the ledge, where their options/movements will be way more limited and they'll probably be afraid of staying there for too long. That's when you'll get an easy punishment.
DD'ing close to shields can bait stupid reactions like roll/spot dodges or whiffed aerials OOS. If you see they often roll away when you're DD'ing, just get there as they're vulnerable and punish them. They'll have to second guess themselves and you'll have a easier time punishing them later on =D

 

[crush]

Lasering and dat cro(u)tch are good when ur dashdancing and they're shielding

 

[Deleted member]

falco's dashdance is excellent as long as you're not trying to match falcon/fox/marth on FD. don't underrate it or you'll miss out on its potential value.

falco's raw ground movement is slow compared to other top characters, and any way you can compensate for this to land the first hit is invaluable to you.

 

[choknater]

yeah i've been testing out falco's dd and it works wonders against ganon. no more getting hit by RANDOM **** because i'm no longer blindly lasering in the neutral game at mid/close range

 

[CK Momentum]

A haiku on what to do if they are prone.

I at low percent
crouch cancel is prob the best
nothing they can do.

 

[Divinokage]

Prone to what? If you space correctly CC is useless unless you can counter-attack the frame you get hit.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think he means when they are on the ground after missing a tech

 

[Divinokage]

Oh ok then ya that could work if you react to rising attack.

 

[CK Momentum]

i think he means when they are on the ground after missing a tech

sveet u are correct
u radiate intellect
falco is def hard.

 

[AvengerAngel]

falco's dashdance is excellent as long as you're not trying to match falcon/fox/marth on FD. don't underrate it or you'll miss out on its potential value.

falco's dashdance is excellent as long as you're not trying to match falcon/fox/marth on FD.

falco's dashdance is excellent as long as you're not trying to match falcon/fox/marth

falco's dashdance is excellent

wat

Also CCing silly get-up attacks and Fsmashing them is sexy 8)) I learnt how to do it mostly watching Chops

 

[Beat!]

wat

...? Falco's dashdance is really good.

 

[Lightsyde]

I must agree with the slight consensus on this so far:

Falco's dash dance is great at producing reactions when utilizing fear tactics, cornering someone (especially after they've recovered), and good laser stuff. But like Mow said, it's not gonna stack up the same as Falcon or Marth or Fox because they have much faster runs to augment their DD'ing. Falco's run speed is the issue, his dash dance has a lot of uses.

 

[Rubyiris]

Falcos dash dance is ****ing good. Short dash distance, great wavedash, lasers.

 

[Vaccine]

r sh fadeaway lasers good for anything? r they worth doing?

 

[Rubyiris]

Everything has a use

 

[CK Momentum]

So yeah lightsyde I agree with your post on dd for hte most part, but I think in order to effect a good defense, falco has to use the laser really well too. also I enjoy your fb updates.

HIV +:If you're talking about the short reverse laser, those lasers are WICKED (in my opinion) good out of shield if they try to overshoot an aerial. It can also work against some approaches to the front of shield. Typically the shortened laser I think pp says u use to micromanage your spacing. Like one way it might be good is if fox wants to dair you and you dont wanna get daired, you can r sh laser him, to get out of hte way and basically jab him at the same time into grab uthrow >blabhlhblhbalbha.

It could also be used as a tap reset (low laser) if you wanna hit them with the tip fo the Fsmash or put them inside of ur dtilt hitbox.
It could be used in tech chasing if u wanna be safe and all non-commital (aka not the shizwiz) like u laser him and ur pretty close to the ledge and u wanna hit a dair/nair followup and dont wanna accidentally jump off u can use it to go closer to the inside of hte stage while maintaining your agression.

I guess alot of what I just wrote has to do with rshl in general tho.

As far as the oos stuff goes though im not sure about how good it is, im HIV positive.

@ ruby: good luck w/ those positive changes i saw u write about on the facebooks. it will get hard but u gotta stick with it.

 

[Deleted member]

wat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoEQ9X2w_Qk

let's watch a falco DD spam @ fox and win for it.

seriously, falco's DD is good.

 

[weon - X]

pp should come to impulse, that is all im here to say.

 

[Dark Hart]

weon-x is my favorite fox, that is all im here to say.

 

[CK Momentum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoEQ9X2w_Qk

let's watch a falco DD spam @ fox and win for it.

seriously, falco's DD is good.

i agree now that ive thought about it//talked about it a ton in this thread, but i also think it needs to be done iwth specific goals in mind and not just mindlessly or else u really just open yourself up to get deeeeee stroyed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Almost all the good characters can do something with their dash dance.

The only difference is that Fox, Falcon, and Marth can kind of spam theirs as a main strategy whereas the others usually use it as some kind of supplementary thing (which really just means they can spam it, but they have to spam other stuff too in order to make it work).

 

[Niko45]

The more I play Falco the less I seem to laser. Not spamming lasers and abusing his DD was definitely a huge epiphany.

Seems like you have to sorta keep a balance based on the opponent's behavior. Often it seems that when the opponent is respecting lasers is the best time not to shoot them and to either CC some awkward approach or DD and outspace stuff. And when people are not respecting lasers, like if a Marth is trying to dash away pivot grab you or fox is just dropping down with wavelands or weird stuff in front of you is the best time to overshoot a laser approach or laser grab respectively.

Do I have the right idea?