PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Dashizwiz vs Eggm: Match 1(Positives)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEvtR_RTrs Match starts at 0:42.

0:44- The retreating laser there was a good decision because Shiz could observe Eggm's response and punish according to it(which is the nice thing about kinda having the middle as he did). Had Eggm FH'd then Shiz would have connected with his laser and approached. If Eggm ran away or stayed still then Shiz could learn that Eggm is not prone to approaching or at least not in a situation where he puts his shield up.

0:45- The following double laser is great because Shiz knows Foxes in particular like to jump away when they can from pressure. In this case, the only real pressure was the ground pressure from afar thanks to lasers. By DJ double lasering, Shiz is still staying safe(since the low second laser will cover any attempts to punish him on landing and Fox can't get under him in time unless he fully predicts Falco will DJ, which is unlikely and still counterable) and covering the usually obvious Fox retreat option, thereby controlling him.

0:56- Good shine(don't think it was CC'd). Shiz connected with Eggm's weak Bair because he was moving well off of his lasers, so he wasn't in stun as long as he would have been had he chosen to wait and observe Eggm's reaction. This gave him enough time to get the shine out and combo Eggm.

1:02- Solid pair of decisions. The first DD was to see if Eggm might retaliate, and when Shiz figures he won't, he lasers in. Since Eggm WD'd back, Shiz decided to feel out Eggm with another laser before going in to grab. Lasering before doing any action like that is pretty good because it makes the laser scarier in a way since the last thing you see in neutral position before getting hit a lot is the laser, so it's great conditioning. Shiz doesn't do this for every matchup btw, but he does this a lot for Fox and some other characters(I forget all of them so I'm not going to bother listing).

1:03- Fthrow Fsmash. Typically, Shiz does lots of Fthrows to spacies. This is because there is little time to react to the initial throw, but also little time to react to what's coming after the throw thanks to its low cooldown. Throwing spacies offstage is an added bonus in this scenario because they often react without thinking(otherwise they drop like a rock lol). Eggm may have jumped out of fear or because he thought he could whatever Shiz was doing walking towards him(another good idea because walking is faster than running for Falco and leaves him with all of his options). At any rate, not much to lose Fsmashing by the edge at low percent(or in general usually), so covering lots of options+not much worry about punishment? Good call, and it hit.

1:04- Grabbing the edge should happen more against Fox. Taking that edge away from him leaves him much more vulnerable to being edgeguarded at times(can't go barely onto the stage thanks to Bair, and if Fox is low then it's a timing mixup situation that Falco can even roll out of if Fox is only trying to sweetspot).

1:08- Kinda nice idea, SH'ing just past Fox a little after he respawns. If he doesn't react to you moving, then cool you ditched him. If he does react, then Shiz puts that shine out(which is intended to punish any chase attempt that should catch him just out of invincibility...a good idea since people misjudge that a little too).

1:11- An unorthodox decision played well on Shiz's previously set up conditioning here. Shiz had been lasering like crazy, so Eggm expected Shiz to fall with a laser. When Shiz empty hopped, Eggm probably had to adjust for a second, and when he ran in to punish Shiz(who he may have assumed even made a mistake or put himself in a bad position by not lasering and being close), Shiz shined to counter the approach and start a combo.

Shiz does this a lot lol. Countering Fox approaches with shine. Junk's weird but good.

1:27- Shiz winds up on the edge thanks to a well-timed powershield, but it looked like Shiz was doing well to regain his footing just before that happened. By double lasering on the side platform like that, he covers himself and sets himself up for any action just after the lower laser lands. This is a great position for mixups and Shiz just got unlucky(imo) with how the mixup went.

1:29- Shiz nets another Fthrow because he pushes his advantage on hit. Sometimes people need to just understand that all of the waiting around only gives the opponent time to adjust and they just need to run up grab and keep it simple lol(I am also guilty of this =p).

1:30- Great WD to the edge to bait the Dair, but he just mistimed his punish(or maybe he should have WD'd back....) and squandered tech skill afterward.

1:43- That first Dair Eggm could have jumped into(buffering if not panic mode) or connected(it was close), and the second one of course is a good decision because even if Eggm did another move that traded with Dair he would have died still.
Shiz jumped out in such a way that would leave his DJ back onstage pretty easily and still cover any immediate recovery attempts.

1:47- Double rolls to bait attacks or mix the opponent up is pretty good because then they get reckless in their desire to hit you and fall into the bait Shiz sets up next(the shine OOS). Rolling while someone is invincible is just a good way to trip someone up in general because rolls are invincible, they move your position, and their startup and cooldown are pretty low.

1:59- Shiz was smart to wait there because he was too far to get hit by getup attack(I think), if Eggm rolled backward he'd fall offstage, and he desperately wanted to roll inward to feel more comfortable(natural human desire to balance out bad momentum). Bthrow was obviously good to set up the edgeguard.

2:18- Shiz set himself up under the opposite end of the platform from where Eggm was so he could cover that distance in one SHL and punish during the time when Eggm was most likely to fall down(when he did...but you can tell based on when Fox goes up if he's jumping lol).

2:21- Fox is at high percent, getting hit and pushed a lot and trying to regain momentum. After Shiz flubs the first Bair(whiffs and misses the L-cancel), Eggm probably feels safe trying to get away to regain composure again. Shiz knew his Bair was safe though(even if Eggm stayed in shield) and would cover any escape or attack Eggm tried, so that's why he did it again.

2:28- Shiz had been running to the right side of the stage often, so faking the right run and then cutting across the top platform was a good way to avoid Eggm's invincibility.

2:29- Falling with a laser there was smart since Eggm didn't try to jump and punish Shiz's DJ and it was quite surprising for Shiz to fall with that laser there because Eggm had advantage(respawn invincibility so he had momentum) and Falco usually isn't considered to be lasering from anything above a SH like that. Quickly caught Eggm offguard.

2:30- The shine connects because Shiz takes advantage of Eggm's confusion and wavelands into him. Shiz being out of range for a FH aerial OOS and not in range for upsmash OOS most of the time, he left Eggm with no way of reversing the situation and feeling stuck. By wavelanding into shine, Shiz took advantage of Eggm deciding to wait until Shiz came close and countering.

2:34- Shiz takes advantage of his momentum and how lost Eggm is likely feeling by doing his standard laser in place before doing anything to Fox, but the fake is effective in making Eggm feel he can't jump OOS(the Bair that killed him last time) or stay in shield(he keeps getting grabbed) and can't punish(just got shined), so he rolled into Shiz who baited this.

*The interpretation of what exactly happened here can be done in a few ways, but the point is Shiz had momentum and played on conditioning. *

2:46- Lasering in place to attempt to stop Eggm from moving away, Shiz forces Eggm's jump instead. Shiz is under the platform so he knows he's safe to a certain point and wants to grab wherever Fox lands if he can to continue building his momentum and get the kill.

2:47- After lasering twice to stop the side B and make sure Eggm wouldn't be trying a second one at the same height(if he timed it to come out just after being lasered again), Shiz suicide Dair'd to end the match. This is great because it ensures the win for Falco since Fox is stuck in place up-B'ing(this can be reacted to as Shiz did it) and unless Fox's % is very very low, Fox will die first so Falco could do this with one stock left and make his final edgeguard super easy.

 

[Bones0]

I haven't read the second part of your critique yet PP, but I have a topic you may or may not find interesting if you want to talk about it. I have recently been quite the MW3 fiend, and I primarily play FFA and Search and Destroy (SnD). Hopefully I don't ramble too much trying to get to my point, but I think a brief description of how SnD works and how I came to the realization is necessary.

In SnD, everyone only has one life. You have an offense and a defense. On the map there are two different bomb sites, and it is the job of the offense to plant the bomb on one of them, and it is the job of the defense to prevent them from planting the bomb, or defuse it within 40 seconds after them planting. Either team can also win by killing all of the opposing team. So to the point, there seem to be 2 main ways to approach each round. The first way is to play based on your opponent's locations. You can analyze which parts of the map are the most popular, and attempt to flank and outposition the enemies in any way possible. This type of play is most common for the offense because the offense cannot just sit back and wait, whereas the defense has the luxury of being able to wait for the offense to make the first move (otherwise the time runs out and the defense wins the round). As a result, the defense tends to play more to the map than to the offense. Players choose locations on the map to best increase their chances of finding and killing opponents, and obviously these locations tend to be near the two possible bomb sites. I have noticed that my own personal style is to play more to the players. I love playing stealthily, constantly flanking, etc. As you can imagine, playing too aggressively often gets me killed because I can't possibly predict where people may be hiding all the time, and it only takes a split second for you to get picked off. As a result, I have found myself playing better as I play increasingly by the map. I am still aggressive sometimes, but when I am, I view it as locking down peripheral areas of the map as opposed to flanking opponents. In this way, I am playing to the map, and then reacting to players as I find them, as opposed to simply trying to find players and move around/through them.

So on to how this relates to Melee. I believe I play with a similar mindset of "playing to the player, not the stage" in Melee. I tend to focus on how my opponent is moving, what he is doing, what he is planning to do, etc. To be honest, I very rarely consider the importance of where I am on the stage. I obviously know the center is better and that I shouldn't be by the ledge, but I am not sure I use the positioning to the fullest extent that I should be. So I was wondering, how would you say you prioritize stage space vs. your opponent? Do you find it easier to lock down the center of the stage and then react to your opponent trying to move out of a disadvantageous situation, or do you tend to look at your opponent and try to play based off of predictions of where they will want to move and what attacks they will want to do? Do you prefer limiting your opponent's space until they have to make a move, or do attempt to invade their space when they are least prepared for it?

Rereading this, I don't really feel like I did a good job of explaining the two concepts, but I guess I'll just see how much people understand, and hopefully someone will be able to explain it better if I am unable to clarify something.



Also, random questions:

1. If you continually SHL, will Fox/Falco be able to side-B towards the stage fast enough (assuming they are side-Bing as soon as the laser's stun ends and they haven't lost any height)? The reason I ask is because I like doing the run off LHDL vs. people who are trying to recover with up-B to make them lose height, but obviously if they can't up-B or side-B above the ledge because I can SHL over and over then they will be forced to recover from below.

2. Is wavelanding in place faster than just letting go of shield? Especially with Falco, it seems like it would be way slower. You need 5 frames for jump squat, then 10 for landing lag I believe. Idk, it just doesn't seem like letting go of shield and moving would take 15 frames. Thanks if anyone can answer these.

 

[FoxLisk]

words

Also, random questions:
2. Is wavelanding in place faster than just letting go of shield? Especially with Falco, it seems like it would be way slower. You need 5 frames for jump squat, then 10 for landing lag I believe. Idk, it just doesn't seem like letting go of shield and moving would take 15 frames. Thanks if anyone can answer these.

@words: i think this is an interesting idea for an approach that, like comparisons with most other out-of-genre games, is going to fail in melee. the maps don't dictate play that much. im going to make up numbers but, like, if you control the center and your opponent is to the side of the stage they have like 10 options compared to your 12; its not like you're suddenly locking down huge amounts of the game. there's also no stealth in melee, the terrain doesnt vary, etc.

@2 i have no idea, but when do you want to WD down out of shield? are you trying to do something like Fsmash asap after you get hit or something? it seems to me like the difference will be pretty minor and the application would be highly limited anyway. also one obvious benefit of WDing is that you already have muscle memory for when you can act after a wavedash and you'd have to learn the shield drop timings and also if you want to say, dtilt (because theres a better way to shine out of shield...) and you start it early in the animation, you'd side dodge, etc, etc.

 

[Bones0]

@words: i think this is an interesting idea for an approach that, like comparisons with most other out-of-genre games, is going to fail in melee. the maps don't dictate play that much. im going to make up numbers but, like, if you control the center and your opponent is to the side of the stage they have like 10 options compared to your 12; its not like you're suddenly locking down huge amounts of the game. there's also no stealth in melee, the terrain doesnt vary, etc.

@2 i have no idea, but when do you want to WD down out of shield? are you trying to do something like Fsmash asap after you get hit or something? it seems to me like the difference will be pretty minor and the application would be highly limited anyway. also one obvious benefit of WDing is that you already have muscle memory for when you can act after a wavedash and you'd have to learn the shield drop timings and also if you want to say, dtilt (because theres a better way to shine out of shield...) and you start it early in the animation, you'd side dodge, etc, etc.

Mostly what I was trying to reference was the mentality behind decisions. Even though most examples aren't good comparisons, the thought processes seem very similar. But yeah, I can agree that Melee having many more options makes it difficult to compare. The terrain definitely varies though, in the sense that there are ledges and platforms. Controlling a player is completely different based on where they are. If they are by the ledge, on a platform, under a platform, on FD, etc. all of the ways you can control them are shifted a lot. Then there's also just general spacing when both of you are dash dancing fairly close to the center. Do you attempt to control the space in front of/below/above them in order to make them move, or do you confront them head on in a way that will make them lose the confrontation? I'm sure people use both mentalities at any given time, but I just noticed that I am almost always looking for a first hit, not to push them closer to the ledge with just threats of movement.

PP mentioned WDing in place OoS in the first part of the critique. I'm terribly addicted to just shielding all the time because I feel like I get destroyed any time I try to just move and avoid attacks, so if I could just let go of my shield when I find myself preemptively shielding when I shouldn't be, I think it'd be a lot easier to recognize when I should and shouldn't be shielding. Obviously I could just WD OoS in these positions, but if just letting go of shield is faster I'd rather do that obviously.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hey, Bones, look:

Shield Release Recovery Time - this rates how much of a lag there is after you release the shield button (R, L, and sometimes used is Z).

Group A
---14 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Jigglypuff / Peach / Zelda

Group B
---15 frames recovery time
---14 characters: DK / Dr. Mario / Falco / Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Link / Luigi / Mario / Ness / Pichu / Pikachu / Sheik / Young Link

Group C
---16 frames recovery time
---8 characters: Bowser / Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Marth / Mewtwo / Mr. Game & Watch / Roy / Samus

Group D
---17 frames recovery time
---1 character: Yoshi

So, if he leaves the ground on frame 6, a frame perfect WD would be something like (5+10+however many frames it takes for you to airdodge back to the ground (maybe 1? I'm not sure)).

tl;dr: Shielding and dropping it is quicker. (Unless Strong Bad/Sveet have other data)

 

[Mew2King]

no, because you can do anything else on frame 6
falco becomes in the air on frame 6, but he could also be SHINING on 6, or anything else. Only the first 5 frames is your startup lag.

if falco wants to do a SH nair, that's 5 + 4 = 9, not 6 + 4, since "6" can be converted into the first frame of any other move (such as frame 1 of an aerial or a shine).

As far as wavedashing, well, for EVERY CHARACTER in the game (I tested them all individually long ago), there is 10 frames landing lag (from ANY height) for landing from an air dodge/air dodge fall. So for Falco, he's on the ground first 5 frames, then 10 more of lag, then he can do anything on frame 16. You can do exactly 4 falco wavedash's per second if you're perfect.


so it pretty much doesn't matter if you shield drop or WD down for falco. Fox however, since his jump is 2 frames faster, benefits slightly from a shield WD down. Falco it's basically the same thing either way; don't worry about it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oops. I can't believe I forgot. Editing now.

EDIT: So it's just as fast as dropping shield? Wow.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

but if you're gonna wavedash down, you may as well shine first.

but i guess the application wasn't the question. it was just "which is faster"

 

[Anand]

but if you're gonna wavedash down, you may as well shine first.

but i guess the application wasn't the question. it was just "which is faster"

Shine takes extra frames though. (And it takes even more extra frames in practice, because we're not all frame-perfect; you'd have to do a non-grounded Shine OoS but make it as low as possible to get the fastest result, I think.)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I....

yes. that was the intended meaning. jump -> shine -> waveland down.

i still can't imagine the use of wavedashing in place out of shield as falco. but i don't have to, cause i don't really play that character much lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I haven't read the second part of your critique yet PP, but I have a topic you may or may not find interesting if you want to talk about it. I have recently been quite the MW3 fiend, and I primarily play FFA and Search and Destroy (SnD). Hopefully I don't ramble too much trying to get to my point, but I think a brief description of how SnD works and how I came to the realization is necessary.

In SnD, everyone only has one life. You have an offense and a defense. On the map there are two different bomb sites, and it is the job of the offense to plant the bomb on one of them, and it is the job of the defense to prevent them from planting the bomb, or defuse it within 40 seconds after them planting. Either team can also win by killing all of the opposing team. So to the point, there seem to be 2 main ways to approach each round. The first way is to play based on your opponent's locations. You can analyze which parts of the map are the most popular, and attempt to flank and outposition the enemies in any way possible. This type of play is most common for the offense because the offense cannot just sit back and wait, whereas the defense has the luxury of being able to wait for the offense to make the first move (otherwise the time runs out and the defense wins the round). As a result, the defense tends to play more to the map than to the offense. Players choose locations on the map to best increase their chances of finding and killing opponents, and obviously these locations tend to be near the two possible bomb sites. I have noticed that my own personal style is to play more to the players. I love playing stealthily, constantly flanking, etc. As you can imagine, playing too aggressively often gets me killed because I can't possibly predict where people may be hiding all the time, and it only takes a split second for you to get picked off. As a result, I have found myself playing better as I play increasingly by the map. I am still aggressive sometimes, but when I am, I view it as locking down peripheral areas of the map as opposed to flanking opponents. In this way, I am playing to the map, and then reacting to players as I find them, as opposed to simply trying to find players and move around/through them.

So on to how this relates to Melee. I believe I play with a similar mindset of "playing to the player, not the stage" in Melee. I tend to focus on how my opponent is moving, what he is doing, what he is planning to do, etc. To be honest, I very rarely consider the importance of where I am on the stage. I obviously know the center is better and that I shouldn't be by the ledge, but I am not sure I use the positioning to the fullest extent that I should be. So I was wondering, how would you say you prioritize stage space vs. your opponent? Do you find it easier to lock down the center of the stage and then react to your opponent trying to move out of a disadvantageous situation, or do you tend to look at your opponent and try to play based off of predictions of where they will want to move and what attacks they will want to do? Do you prefer limiting your opponent's space until they have to make a move, or do attempt to invade their space when they are least prepared for it?

Rereading this, I don't really feel like I did a good job of explaining the two concepts, but I guess I'll just see how much people understand, and hopefully someone will be able to explain it better if I am unable to clarify something.



Also, random questions:

1. If you continually SHL, will Fox/Falco be able to side-B towards the stage fast enough (assuming they are side-Bing as soon as the laser's stun ends and they haven't lost any height)? The reason I ask is because I like doing the run off LHDL vs. people who are trying to recover with up-B to make them lose height, but obviously if they can't up-B or side-B above the ledge because I can SHL over and over then they will be forced to recover from below.

2. Is wavelanding in place faster than just letting go of shield? Especially with Falco, it seems like it would be way slower. You need 5 frames for jump squat, then 10 for landing lag I believe. Idk, it just doesn't seem like letting go of shield and moving would take 15 frames. Thanks if anyone can answer these.

I would say you should prioritize taking the middle, and then mixing up exactly how you push that advantage on the opponent. You could gradually push and choke stage away until the opponent is forced to act, or you could run in hard and surprise the opponent before they know exactly how bad the situation is.

There are many ways to handle stage control once you have it, and of course this all runs deeper depending on character choice and opponent's character choice. Saying there is one "best" way to control stage(outside of taking the middle and exploiting that advantage) would be more of an opinion of someone thrown together from their own experiences and probably character choices.

If you are curious about how I personally handle stage control(which was in your original question), then I would tell you that my goal once center stage is acquired is to make a decent push and see how that increased pressure affects my opponent and play from there. For Falco, this is usually a SHL towards the opponent. For Marth, this would be a dash/WD towards the opponent or maybe a Dtilt poke out of a dash cancel. From there, I can choose if I want to attack later(as I will be at a good position in terms of spacing and have much of the stage to fall back on if needed) or bait reactions or simply pressure safely(spaced Falco Bairs for example). The point is, when I have stage, I can control the spacing game much better between my opponent and myself since I have more room and, therefore, more comfort to work with.

People today often think about all of the options the opponent has and waiting for them to make the first move. While you can do that with stage control, it seems odd to just sit back and wait so much when the opponent could be pressured into dying much easier(the punishment would likely push them offstage too so it could be a greater punishment than if one waited). Therefore, I think it is also important to consider controlling the opponent and making them select the options you WANT them to select rather than allowing them to pick from the few that they still have remaining at times.


@1: I don't think you can SHL fast enough to stop their recovery, but if they keep side B'ing then it's a free hit once you stop lasering anyway lol. If you LHDL to reduce the height of a spacie in their up-B, then just be prepared to catch a side B because otherwise you have time to shoot/intercept an up-B.

 

[Rh1thmz]

Hey, guys, I recently went to SWEET V, which was a MI tourney with about 50 entrants, and I finally got my first recorded match there thanks to DJnicholasRAGE aka Carroll . It's a couple of friendlies with his Fox. Good matches, Carroll! Here's the YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGvpR2IRVnA&context=C3184536ADOEgsToPDskIC6ydZ5uBum2at67qOALci

Critiques, please? Any general/time specific/whatever advice and constructive criticism you guys have for my Falco would be great I'm a reasonably new Falco to the tournament scene, as this was my third tourney ever. I don't get any Fox experience on the west side of the state at the moment, so, as you can see, my ability to play the Fox matchup is a little shaky Any comments for me on my Falco/Fox matchup would be awesome, too.

 

[Warhawk]

The biggest thing that comes to my mind were the technical mistakes. You missed the jump-cancels on some shines and some l-cancels and that got you in trouble and hurt your pressure on your opponent. You also had some bad rolls on Yoshi's Story when pressured, especially in some instances where you could have done something else to reverse the pressure instead of rolling away and letting your opponent keep control.

 

[Mastermooseman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEvtR_RTrs Match starts at 0:42.

1:47- Double rolls to bait attacks or mix the opponent up is pretty good because then they get reckless in their desire to hit you and fall into the bait Shiz sets up next(the shine OOS). Rolling while someone is invincible is just a good way to trip someone up in general because rolls are invincible, they move your position, and their startup and cooldown are pretty low.

Repeat of Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=ULPHYvlYs9xwo&v=PHYvlYs9xwo#t=393s (time=6:35)

 

[Deleted member]

he goes by ****** and he thinks he's knowledgable because he's been in the scene for a long time.

You're just mad that I said Javi would wreck you, because he would. Or you're mad because I give Kevin really gay ideas on aim and he probably tried them on you.

I hope it's the latter because that's funnier to me.

 

[~Twitch~]

You're just mad that I said Javi would wreck you, because he would. Or you're mad because I give Kevin really gay ideas on aim and he probably tried them on you.

I hope it's the latter because that's funnier to me.

i ain't even mad, i just enjoy the fact that you think i would stalk kevin's aim discussions to see if you had any ideas that might make me mad.

but yeah i am mad about your opinion's on javi's skill. that makes sense.

 

[Rh1thmz]

The biggest thing that comes to my mind were the technical mistakes. You missed the jump-cancels on some shines and some l-cancels and that got you in trouble and hurt your pressure on your opponent. You also had some bad rolls on Yoshi's Story when pressured, especially in some instances where you could have done something else to reverse the pressure instead of rolling away and letting your opponent keep control.

Yeah, looking back, I'm noticing these things, among some others, that I'd attribute largely to nerves and pressure getting to me. I'm still learning to cope with tournament pressures (even in just a friendly ), and it can kinda affect my play. I have a way to go on confident and consistent (shield) pressure, though, for sure; I was mostly focusing on keeping my spacing as tight as I was capable of, I feel like. Thanks for pointing out the rolls, too...I'll be looking to cut out the unneccesary ones in future (Fox) matches.



Anything else?

 

[Van.]

seems like pp is really umbreon tolerant and twitch is anti umbreon

a house divided

 

[oliman]

im probably repeating this, but has anyone tried shield pressure with fair? i dont know how well it would work but in my mind im playing peach, who can OoS you or grab you, and in my uninformed perspective it would counter both of these options.

 

[Veetaak]

Pretty sure fair's shieldstun is too terrible to do anything.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey, guys, I recently went to SWEET V, which was a MI tourney with about 50 entrants, and I finally got my first recorded match there thanks to DJnicholasRAGE aka Carroll . It's a couple of friendlies with his Fox. Good matches, Carroll! Here's the YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGvpR2IRVnA&context=C3184536ADOEgsToPDskIC6ydZ5uBum2at67qOALci

Critiques, please? Any general/time specific/whatever advice and constructive criticism you guys have for my Falco would be great I'm a reasonably new Falco to the tournament scene, as this was my third tourney ever. I don't get any Fox experience on the west side of the state at the moment, so, as you can see, my ability to play the Fox matchup is a little shaky Any comments for me on my Falco/Fox matchup would be awesome, too.

Hard to watch because you don't have much tech skill yet. Make sure you can get lasers out quickly, can hit all of your L-cancels, and don't do any noob habits like shielding a ton after SHFFL'ing(because you end with a shoulder button lots of people hold this....don't do that), rolling out of shield often(learn to use other OOS options so you don't telegraph yourself), and aerial'ing towards someone RIGHT after you laser all of the time(they aren't going anywhere usually lol just take your time and read them).

seems like pp is really umbreon tolerant and twitch is anti umbreon

a house divided

Twitch randomly hates things which I enjoy laughing about every time we talk.

It's mostly just Umbreon and strange Eggm hate though lmao.

im probably repeating this, but has anyone tried shield pressure with fair? i dont know how well it would work but in my mind im playing peach, who can OoS you or grab you, and in my uninformed perspective it would counter both of these options.

I've thought about it, but the ending lag on Fair makes it kind of a bad idea(relative to the stun on each hit, which is 7 for the first hit and then 6 for each one afterward). Like, Peach can counter your move after she sees it so Fair doesn't really trick her usually(can work once every other stock I guess based on raw conditioning if she's just reacting after her shield gets touched).

 

[Rh1thmz]

Thanks!

10thanks

 

[Druggedfox]

and strange Eggm hate though lmao.

lmao

10lols

 

[Bones0]

Thanks for that response. Gonna go reflect.

 

[Deleted member]

i just think javi is godlike in general, but particularly so vs fox and falco. i watched him play before the bracket at apex and pegged him for auto top 5 and was not disappointed.

he's a tier 1 player and the real deal. ofc i'd bet on him over anyone in this thread except kevin and jason. kevin can do better than he did at apex by a lot and played kinda bad in bracket. vs jason it's just another fox for combo practice lol

 

[Bones0]

Do you think M2K would be able to beat Mango's Fox?

 

[choknater]

nah son

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'd love to see the match played out. I think M2K would pwn first game or two, but the Mango would come back or something. You know, whatever it is that Mango does. But it would still be close.

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

has M2K lost to a fox before?

 

[Divinokage]

PC Chris, KDJ.. for examples.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

He rarely lost to their foxes, even at their peaks

 

[CK Momentum]

Nice new avatar Kage.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

he lost to kirbykaze's fox like last month in tourny :3

 

[FoxLisk]

He rarely lost to their foxes, even at their peaks

Yeah, and even more rarely with marth.

 

[Divinokage]

"Rarely" We are talking about if he ever lost to one.. what the heck, is that an attempt to defend him?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, considering there's been like 5 Fox mains ever on his level, it doesn't make sense to make any exceptions. x_x

"OMG dude, PP wrecks Peach players. The only one that beats him is Armada!"

derpderpderpderpderpderp

 

[FoxLisk]

The original question was "Do you think M2K would be able to beat Mango's Fox?"
Your post was in response to a related question, "has M2K lost to a fox before?" to which it was a - perhaps even unnecessarily - complete answer. In the context of that subthread, your indignation is reasonable as there's no point in further questioning.

However, in the context of the initial question, qualifying just how rarely M2K has lost to foxes is valid as it can affect the readers' judgements of how likely it is that M2K would be able to beat Mango's fox.

edit @Bones I would argue that there has never been a fox main in the true sense that was at his level. When PC and KDJ were on his level, PC mained falco and KDJ sorta dual-mained sheik and fox.

 

[Bones0]

The original question was "Do you think M2K would be able to beat Mango's Fox?"
Your post was in response to a related question, "has M2K lost to a fox before?" to which it was a - perhaps even unnecessarily - complete answer. In the context of that subthread, your indignation is reasonable as there's no point in further questioning.

However, in the context of the initial question, qualifying just how rarely M2K has lost to foxes is valid as it can affect the readers' judgements of how likely it is that M2K would be able to beat Mango's fox.

edit @Bones I would argue that there has never been a fox main in the true sense that was at his level. When PC and KDJ were on his level, PC mained falco and KDJ sorta dual-mained sheik and fox.

My indignation was in response to Sveet acting as if PC and KDJ beating him with Fox weren't valid examples of when M2K has lost to a Fox.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually, find me an example of PC or KDJ beating m2k with fox (or if you read this PC/KDJ, speak up) because I seem to recall a recent PC post saying that he never beat M2K's marth with fox back then and I'd bet KDJ would have either marth ditto'd or played sheik against M2K.

 

[Divinokage]

Actually, find me an example of PC or KDJ beating m2k with fox (or if you read this PC/KDJ, speak up) because I seem to recall a recent PC post saying that he never beat M2K's marth with fox back then and I'd bet KDJ would have either marth ditto'd or played sheik against M2K.

It's not that hard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0hRszMlF8 I seem to recall lots of classic matches where PC beat M2k's Marth plenty of times.