PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[trahhSTEEZY]

wow, just as i thought, deeper than i would see. don't you feel risky doing that?

 

[AvengerAngel]

Like I said though, that's all really general and I don't think there's any way nodding your head will have a significant influence on your attitude or vice versa. I'm actually leaning towards any sort of gesture of recognition as being a bad habit because it gives unnecessary hints to your opponent. A lot of the people I saw shaking/nodding their heads vs. me at Apex, I anticipated their adjustment the next time the situation came up. So like if they teched in the same direction twice and I punished both times and then they nod their head, I know to expect a different tech the next time. Although I guess you could mindgame me by nodding and then picking the same option again, and thus Melee has developed another layer of yomi. FML

LOL this post *****. Next time I'm going to mindgame my opponent with similar strategies x)
Also let's play a game. It's called "ignore the obvious troll". Whoever ignores Merkuri for at least 3 months straight wins a Mango shaped doll that says "ahh ****". He'll eventually get bored and leave =D


@PP: Will you critique Shiz's vid? Just a reminder lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Not

usually

please don't ask about this anymore <.<


@AA: I TOTALLY FORGOT!!!

okay yeah I can do that in a bit. it's vs eggm right?

 

[AvengerAngel]

Either my pc sucks (it does) really bad or you're too fast at posting... I saw your post appearing just a second after I sent mine lol xd
yup, it's the first match of the set vs. Eggm, thanks =D

 

[genkaku]

... I want that doll

 

[tarheeljks]

I played a "certain someone" at Apex who nodded his head every 3 seconds. lol

I think gestures can be indicative of attitude, but it isn't all black and white and doesn't really apply to everyone. I know when I SD or make a dumb mistake I shake my head, but I'm not really upset. Shaking my head is just my way of shaking off the mistake and my mindset as I shake my head is usually "okay, dumb mistake, it happens, focus harder." I think that can often be way better than nodding your head and simply accepting that it happened because then you are less intent on making adjustments accordingly.

Like I said though, that's all really general and I don't think there's any way nodding your head will have a significant influence on your attitude or vice versa. I'm actually leaning towards any sort of gesture of recognition as being a bad habit because it gives unnecessary hints to your opponent. A lot of the people I saw shaking/nodding their heads vs. me at Apex, I anticipated their adjustment the next time the situation came up. So like if they teched in the same direction twice and I punished both times and then they nod their head, I know to expect a different tech the next time. Although I guess you could mindgame me by nodding and then picking the same option again, and thus Melee has developed another layer of yomi. FML

eh, you may be putting more into gestures than is actually there. brain loves searching for patterns. you would need quite a sampling to determine that they are more likely to change up their tech the next time, given that they did (not) nod their head upon being punished. i'd say you should expect a different tech after punishing the same tech twice more b/c you just punished the same tech twice than b/c they reacted visibly

edit: not that it can't matter for anyone, but just observing the results from recent tech choices is prob adequate

 

[Wake]

I didn't know you needed to have a good attitude to be able to play Falco (assuming that this is still a Falco thread, lol).

Seriously, Merkuri, I don't think it matters how much of a good sport someone is (or how much of a bad one you seem to want to make PP out to be). What matters is what you see on the screen. Nothing else.

Also, I played as Falco vs Peach for the first time yesterday (first time against her, not as playing Falco). I want to personally apologize on behalf of Peach for being SO annoying.

I had fun playing your Peach as Falco at Apex, but I can definitely see it. She's just so weird, and things happen that seem like they shouldn't happen when you play against Peach. She's a monster, but I love her.

 

[Bones0]

eh, you may be putting more into gestures than is actually there. brain loves searching for patterns. you would need quite a sampling to determine that they are more likely to change up their tech the next time, given that they did (not) nod their head upon being punished. i'd say you should expect a different tech after punishing the same tech twice more b/c you just punished the same tech twice than b/c they reacted visibly

edit: not that it can't matter for anyone, but just observing the results from recent tech choices is prob adequate

It's mostly common sense that people who show no visual recognition of a bad tech choice are more likely to repeat it than those who consciously acknowledge their mistake, and are thus more likely to adapt and adjust.

 

[Mastermooseman]

... I want that doll

 

[CK Momentum]

What can i do against when falco cc's my shine in the ditto? im thinking i should just shine wl the platform alot since i get hit alot by buffer get up attack in that situation. but like if that's not viable will i be able to shield/ground dodge the get up attack if i think its coming?

 

[FoxLisk]

Uh I'm gonna just say that does not fall under 'common sense.'
(to head off the possible semantic argument, feel free to read it this way: "that being 'common sense' doesn't mean it's right")

edit: that was at Bones

Tom: James likes to doubleshine me when I CC his shine, which can work out pretty well if you pull it off cause the first shine breaks the CC. if they're always buffering getup attack you can just like full hop and come down with a dair or something.

 

[CK Momentum]

but theres def time to fh/shield/ground dodge?

 

[Divinokage]

You could also grab him if you expect a CC.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What can i do against when falco cc's my shine in the ditto? im thinking i should just shine wl the platform alot since i get hit alot by buffer get up attack in that situation. but like if that's not viable will i be able to shield/ground dodge the get up attack if i think its coming?

Reacting with double shine is what Mango does. I'll just react with a delayed Dair(not nearly as good unless the percent is like 40% or something and shine is possibly staled). If you waveshine quickly you may be able to uptilt or dtilt or shine again but it will have to be a fast shine(aka probably not reacting you'll have to be committed to the waveshine in advance).

You could waveland onto a platform as well, that's certainly an option too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dashizwiz vs Eggm: Match 1

I will be keeping this fairly straightforward since I am not completely better yet. It should still be beneficial though. =)

Match starts at 0:42. link to set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEvtR_RTrs

0:47- Shiz attempted to Dair Eggm after lots of lasers and gets grabbed. Shiz probably assumed it was okay to attack since he had shot quite a few lasers(makes most people uneasy and wanting to attack), and Eggm looked like he messed up with his shield(especially since his back is facing Shiz) or possibly tried to run and put it up just before Shiz attacked. Eggm WDs OOS and JC grabs Shiz because Shiz did not attack from a close enough spacing to account for a WD OOS away. At least, not on reaction so quickly. That Dair at that spacing would probably cover any hesitation and most other movement OOS without much fear of being punished(save upsmash OOS I suppose). To fix this situation, Shiz should be attacking closer to Eggm to catch him OOS or lasering into Eggm when he gets closer because Eggm has not crossed the middle of the stage yet in this match and it can be assumed from there that he will play defensively(at least initially).

....okay see this is not me being straightforward LOL that is way too much for one situation. I'm gonna try to write less overall in the interest of finishing this critique haha.


0:48- Not a bad decision to Dair there(had he been closer to the stage), but the height Eggm jumped at would have allowed Shiz to DJ immediate side B safely. Not sure if Shiz DI'd out or not, but that is worth considering before DJ Dair'ing Fox anyway(unless Shiz just figured he might've been dead regardless and wanted to trade stocks).

0:54- okay AC Bair but it's unlikely Fox would land on the ground through the platform, especially when Falco is invincible.

0:56- Rather than keeping a fairly constant laser stream going, Shiz opted to try and outmaneuver/bait Fox here before lasering, so it's a small wonder he was caught on his laser immediately. He allowed Eggm to run for too long.

0:59- Not sure if he meant to do a later Dair or a rising one....tech skill....

1:15- Whiffing that Dsmash SUCKS. There are a few ways to avoid missing this edgeguard though....

1. Stay onstage and Dair/Dsmash. More likely to tech but you get to switch up exactly when you hit as well.

2. Hold edge with invincibility and react to which way Fox goes(nothing if straight up, shine or Dair or Bair if Fox goes horizontal....timing can also be mixed up depending on invincibility length and how horizontal Fox goes).

3. Not Dair'ing on so far so Dsmash still hits offstage. Lol.


1:17- I can understand Shiz's intentions with that side B(get back to the stage before Fox gets set up), but Eggm did bait him pretty well with that WD back(he shined to Bair Shiz's side B but that shine may have also stopped air control to grab the edge....so he may have covered tons of options or just reacted to Shiz's side B with tech skill lol). There's a lot I could say about this situation, but ultimately I think Shiz side Bs a little too much against non-Florida Fox(they all go out there to shine lol so I understand that more but he has to adjust based on opponent) and may need to up-B more. Or side B to the edge more...he doesn't do that too much.

1:21- I think Shiz did that Uair all tournament lol. Most Foxes he fought didn't get above him like that, so he should have stuck to double lasering/doing that DJ Nair he does to recover. An edgedash would've been great, but I don't think he does those.

1:22- Really bad roll. Waiting until Fox uses the DJ means he WILL be coming back down onto you when you land. WD'ing OOS in place or even backward a little bit would have been safer, as well as holding a moment longer after Fox did the second shine to see where Fox is positioning himself to land. If he lands on the platform, he's in a little lag and could be attacked or maneuvered away from, etc.

1:35- Hit again due to tech skill(missed the falling Dair L-cancel). Well, not entirely because he reacted to Eggm's WD towards him with a laser in place, which is easy to dodge if Fox will be out of lag in time(which, if he WD'd to get the reaction, he will). Couple that with Shiz trying to run after lasering instead of shielding/spotdogding/rolling/uptilting/etc I guess means he's in an even worse place(in terms of overall momentum and positioning).

1:37- I'm inclined to think this Fsmash was to catch Eggm OOS, but it didn't do that because Shiz wasn't close enough(which may have made Eggm move OOS and give Shiz the hit he wanted). This is mostly a result of Shiz not having momentum.

1:40- Shiz does an up-B. Wasn't at the edge(would've gotten Ftilted if he had even if it is usually more safe), but at least he learned from the side B shenanigans earlier.

1:48- Eggm probably had time to shield because his percent was too low for Shiz to DJ Dair him before Eggm would be out of stun so he wouldn't be able to be comboed(it's like jumping into Dair below 40% and having no stun on landing, same idea). Shiz should have shine grabbed(could have grabbed on reaction since Eggm probably wasn't expecting to get his shield up) or maybe straight grabbed from the shine....or even Nair to Dsmash/Fsmash(should still combo at that percent and possibly take a jump).

1:51- Really bad laser off of the platform. Shiz putting himself up there is questionable because he just called Eggm not going directly forward off of the platform wrongly. Him jumping off with a laser there pretty much only covered Eggm jumping up to hit him, which again is an option more likely for an aggressive Fox(something Eggm has proven himself before this point not to be). Shield dropping, SH'ing/FH'ing away to the top platform, even WD'ing OOS after Eggm hits his shield would have been much safer. Shiz honestly could have SH'd off the platform and reverse lasered since Eggm was waiting so long, but that is definitely a hard read type of option and not one I'd normally advocate.

Then Shiz misses more tech skill and gets shined then Bair'd.

2:01- Always expect the side B to the edge. React to everything else(even side B into you is something you have more time to react to, even if only a little more). Dsmash before he gets there works, but Shiz could have shine turnaround WD'd to the edge and kept Eggm from recovering more securely if he wanted to(Eggm had no jumps).

2:07- I'll give Shiz the whiffed edgeguard, but that DJ no FF Bair was bad. He had to intentionally avoid FF'ing too in order to not land on the platform, so that was just a bad idea. Falco is easy to read and punish when he burns his double jump so carelessly like that. He should have just fallen from the wind blowing him off of the platform and regained laser control afterward or DJ wavelanded onto the platform.

2:10- up-B was fine but he did the same horizontal angle again. Could have been an accident though.

2:16- Two ridiculously hard reads. The initial Dair kept Eggm from crossing him up(which is something Eggm hasn't done yet), and the second aerial, Bair is used to keep Eggm from retreating to the platform or over his head. Sadly, if there are no lasers and such quick retreating movement off of an aerial, then Falco's mobility shows itself quite plainly and he is easy to see and avoid(as shown by Eggm wavelanding off of the platform to bait Shiz to jump and then running directly under him once he saw Shiz fully committing to the read).

2:35- A great read on the uptilt, but he should have uptilted again since he hadn't done much uptilt and a couple shines already. He may have been able to get away with another Dair or at least a Dsmash/turnaround Usmash if he wanted to choose different options.

2:38- I'm pretty sure this upsmash was on purpose, and not necessarily a bad idea either. It would catch most OOS options and be safe if Eggm had WD'd OOS away(I don't think he could have punished in time anyway). It looks like he let it charge a little bit instead of using it immediately(as with the c stick) upon further inspection, so that was probably the main issue with the success of this option rather than the option selection itself. A safer route to go would be to jab or Ftilt to quickly catch Fox and possibly combo/edgeguard depending on the way the move connects.

2:42- Those Dairs kinda work for Shiz, but they're usually better for him when they're spaced. He may have been trying to catch a retreat OOS though, but that spacing he Dair'd from is easy to react to a grab from so Eggm had no reason to be wary of Shiz's attack due to his shine OOS he used. Shiz should have delayed his aerial or spaced it or.....empty hopped if he felt it was better lol. Pretty much any standard "good" option from that spacing is fine since I doubt Eggm was ready to move at that point since he was losing, getting hit so he had little momentum, and had been stuck in that corner of the stage for quite a while.



Annndd that looks like the first game is critiqued. Shiz adjusted his recovery and pressure/approach options well but most importantly he got the most off of his hits from these adjustments.

 

[CK Momentum]

Staled means that the a move deals less knockback/damage cos it's been used a lot of times during the match right?

Hmm, I can cancel the shine before the hexagonal part of the move appears. Shine utilt is kind of challenging I just tried it 20-30 times and usmash/uair came out alot. But I will definitely try these things out.

Double shine seems to be Druggedfox's optimal combo though, so I'll have to start working that in.

Also what is falcos best option against lhdl? Right now I just shield it or sometimes I'll try to fsmash it, but I dont know how to get it to consistently work. lhdl I think is the best way to get off hte ledge in the game haha. its so good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Staled means that the a move deals less knockback/damage cos it's been used a lot of times during the match right?

Hmm, I can cancel the shine before the hexagonal part of the move appears. Shine utilt is kind of challenging I just tried it 20-30 times and usmash/uair came out alot. But I will definitely try these things out.

Double shine seems to be Druggedfox's optimal combo though, so I'll have to start working that in.

Also what is falcos best option against lhdl? Right now I just shield it or sometimes I'll try to fsmash it, but I dont know how to get it to consistently work. lhdl I think is the best way to get off hte ledge in the game haha. its so good.

Gotta waveshine uptilt lol sorry.

Depends on the height of the lasers. Super low and you can go over top and hit Falco(usually from a jump or platforms). Anything higher and you can Ftilt/Fsmash/maybe other stuff to hit Falco after the first laser. Mango likes to run up shield shine OOS after the first laser sometimes, so you could do that.

 

[tarheeljks]

nice pp. do you still intend to do you vs sfat

It's mostly common sense that people who show no visual recognition of a bad tech choice are more likely to repeat it than those who consciously acknowledge their mistake, and are thus more likely to adapt and adjust.

maybe, i just feel this is begging the question. doesn't seem like common sense to me though

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd really rather not unless there's something in it worth talking about you saw/wanted me to focus on.

 

[tarheeljks]

nah, i just asked b/c you mentioned it earlier.

/i see my boy has you shook

Spoiler

since some people suck at identifying sarcasm, that's a joke

 

[Deleted member]

yo i would **** javi tho why does no one believe me??

on a good day...

because we have eyes and a cognitive thought process.

this thread still sucks. back in 3-5 days to check again.

kevin/sami i'll just catch you on aim as usual.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Thanks for the critique =D
There were some things I could notice and understand, but reading your critique made me more aware of what was going on. The first point is like... OMG MIND = BLOWN. I didn't notice how Eggm's back was facing Shiz and how he didn't cross the middle of the stage yet, therefore one could assume he was going to be more defensive. I just saw it and thought "meh it was badly spaced and easy to punish" LOL
@2.38 the main reason why Usmash didn't work may be because Eggm got pushed off the platform by Shiz's pressure and he DJ'd immediatly, going out of Usmash's range pretty quickly D:

Also reading this made me rethink of the Marth MU and why I was having problems. I think I had a revelation lol x)
I was a bit too scared to approach and get punished, so I was trying to lasercamp more and from a further distance, meaning that when I tried to approach, most of the time I wasn't close enough for it to work. But I feel like Marth can easily punish any hesitation if you're too close to him and don't respect his space. I'll have to watch my vids to see how my spacing was off xP

 

[FoxLisk]

Yo PP can you talk through that match (or another one or whatever) and point out the things the falco player does right that arent obvious? i mean that was really interesting but i think learning what to do is as important as learning what not to do.

 

[ArcNatural]

Staled means that the a move deals less knockback/damage cos it's been used a lot of times during the match right?

Hmm, I can cancel the shine before the hexagonal part of the move appears. Shine utilt is kind of challenging I just tried it 20-30 times and usmash/uair came out alot. But I will definitely try these things out.

Double shine seems to be Druggedfox's optimal combo though, so I'll have to start working that in.

Also what is falcos best option against lhdl? Right now I just shield it or sometimes I'll try to fsmash it, but I dont know how to get it to consistently work. lhdl I think is the best way to get off hte ledge in the game haha. its so good.

Are you shine -> wavedashing down uptilt?

It would be impossible to actually shine -> uptilt, you can shine -> JC upsmash or shine -> sh upair which would make sense.

If your trying to shine wavedash down uptilt, you can just hold up IMMEDIATELY after wavedashing down (so during the 10 frames or so of lag your basically buffering the up command) and then just hit A.

Dr. PP Sorry I've been busy lately, I'll be on the next few days or so though.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ledgehop double laser isn't that great.

it sets up the unholy combo really well though for ganon. i know this from experience lmao. so don't get read trying that ****. at least not the high low.

 

[Lightsyde]

I kinda like ledgehop really high/mid height double laser.

I feel like it covers the platform or jump options better than double laser at the same height. Obviously not a good idea if they are close or you've been abusing it, but as a mix up, I have a lot of random success with shooting people's feet through the platform when edge hopping or knocking them out of their jump if they are closer to mid stage. I was just thinking it's not something I see people do very much but I tend to be able to get combo opportunities off of it (Shoot their feet -> Land -> Immediate Shine waveland if they are still on the platform etc). Seems like a lot of people are convinced that shooting only a particular set of lasers from the edge is the only way to do it (aside from turn around stuff laser stuff).

Thoughts?

EDIT: Yes, this is a better or worse idea depending on stage/platform heights and what match up you're playing.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i remember when i asked lovage about countering ledge hop double laser, he said if you do it right, it can't be countered. and that mango does it perfectly right almost always and never gets punished, maybe i misunderstood tho.

 

[ruhtraeel]

I kinda like ledgehop really high/mid height double laser.

I feel like it covers the platform or jump options better than double laser at the same height. Obviously not a good idea if they are close or you've been abusing it, but as a mix up, I have a lot of random success with shooting people's feet through the platform when edge hopping or knocking them out of their jump if they are closer to mid stage. I was just thinking it's not something I see people do very much but I tend to be able to get combo opportunities off of it (Shoot their feet -> Land -> Immediate Shine waveland if they are still on the platform etc). Seems like a lot of people are convinced that shooting only a particular set of lasers from the edge is the only way to do it (aside from turn around stuff laser stuff).

Thoughts?

EDIT: Yes, this is a better or worse idea depending on stage/platform heights and what match up you're playing.

It's free when someone expects the LHDL at the same height so they try to jump high and then attack but then they get hit by the high laser and then you b-throw f-tilt and then gimp

 

[JPOBS]

ledgehop double laser isn't that great.

it sets up the unholy combo really well though for ganon. i know this from experience lmao. so don't get read trying that ****. at least not the high low.

lol what is "the unholy combo" ?

is it something specific or just any move -> death

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GFGVqfhJAE

 

[choknater]

wow what a combo

 

[JPOBS]

i rofl'd

no seriously i died. I'm spekaing from the grave.

 

[choknater]

"Come with me to hell." - Cervantes

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Yeah you have no jump and you're by the edge. **** is free lol. The two low ones are hard to deal with though .

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo PP can you talk through that match (or another one or whatever) and point out the things the falco player does right that arent obvious? i mean that was really interesting but i think learning what to do is as important as learning what not to do.

Yeah but I'm worse at that LOL.

I'll see if I can take the same game and maybe rework it in that way. Not sure exactly when it'll be done though.

Dr. PP Sorry I've been busy lately, I'll be on the next few days or so though.

aight I'll try again lol

ledgehop double laser isn't that great.

it sets up the unholy combo really well though for ganon. i know this from experience lmao. so don't get read trying that ****. at least not the high low.

Doing the LHDL on Ganon is not that fun lol. If he's kinda far away though then it's more fun.

 

[CK Momentum]

Yo PP can you talk through that match (or another one or whatever) and point out the things the falco player does right that arent obvious? i mean that was really interesting but i think learning what to do is as important as learning what not to do.

Foxlisk do u wanna write notes to each other over FB or something where we try to figure this out?

I think I'm gonna start doing more video analysis anyways in my journal since im basically on a quest, but I can just send what I write to u if u want.

If u don't thats okay, I still hate u. <3

-ck.

 

[FoxLisk]

Foxlisk do u wanna write notes to each other over FB or something where we try to figure this out?

I think I'm gonna start doing more video analysis anyways in my journal since im basically on a quest, but I can just send what I write to u if u want.

If u don't thats okay, I still hate u. <3

-ck.

that emoticon changed my life

and i dunno if i have the energy to do that myself but if you message me stuff id be happy to talk through whatever ideas you have about it, im sure we'd both learn a lot doing stuff like that.

 

[SSBMLahti]

This is off-topic, but...

Who exactly is Umbreon? Who does he go by outside of SmashBoards?

I'm a stalker.

 

[CK Momentum]

His name was Robert Paulson, but now he goes by the name Meat.

that emoticon changed my life

and i dunno if i have the energy to do that myself but if you message me stuff id be happy to talk through whatever ideas you have about it, im sure we'd both learn a lot doing stuff like that.

^^ yeah definitely i'll let some videos of falco dittos buffer so i can watch them in the car ride then I'll hit u up on fb, or maybe visit you at work (who was it who said programmers do no work? idr). Foxlisk, Ilu. You're the fox to my falco. The butter to my bread. The shine to my dair. The downthrow to my knee. The PP to my mango. The Zelda to my sheik. You're the meat to my potatoes. The hax to my jman (jmans snores are TOP TIER). You're the fashion to my crush. what Im trying to say is.... shut the **** up *****. youre the upthrow to my rest. and thats what I'm gonna do now... rest, because there's a tournament tomorrow and I'm hoping to do good.

Fashion for LIFE.

 

[~Twitch~]

This is off-topic, but...

Who exactly is Umbreon? Who does he go by outside of SmashBoards?

I'm a stalker.

he goes by ****** and he thinks he's knowledgable because he's been in the scene for a long time.