PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are we talking game wins or set wins? I was talking set wins.

 

[Bones0]

Exposed .

 

[Divinokage]

Wait.. who got exposed now? There has to be at least one tournament where he did it.. I forget when..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I remember M2K won FCD then PC won 0c3, but i seem to remember PC playing falco to beat m2k and not fox

 

[FoxLisk]

My indignation was in response to Sveet acting as if PC and KDJ beating him with Fox weren't valid examples of when M2K has lost to a Fox.

gah i was takling to kage, sorry.

 

[CK Momentum]

Bones, you're right. Foxlisk, you're wrong as always. <3.

 

[JPOBS]

I remember M2K won FCD then PC won 0c3, but i seem to remember PC playing falco to beat m2k and not fox

pretty sure when PC beat m2k at oc3 it was falco vs fox.

We should just get m2k in here. He remembers every single match he has ever played including stock and time remaining.

 

[Dr Peepee]

.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjXTiKC0GRE this is the first video of GFs of oc3(PC wins going Fox after playing mostly Falco in WFs and losing). This occurred AFTER FCD when M2K ***** PC's everything(including Peach and both spacies probably) with Marth.

 

[stingers]

how do you know more about tourneys you were too young to see than I do...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Because shelby is excruciatingly boring.

Also I like smash history LOL.

 

[JPOBS]

tru that. TBH I'm terrible with smash history and remembering specifics

 

[Aber]

Who calls games wins???? Of course its set wins.


I'd like to see the set though itd be great or at least a MM Marth vs Fox

 

[Riio]

When someone's approaching from above, how good is crouching to lower your hurtbox and shining when they're in range? Is this reliable? If you **** up, you're CCing anyway.

 

[Vaccine]

i never use retreating SHLs! i feel like all they do is give the opponent room to work with...?

when should i use them? do they work better against certain characters?


also when the opponent is on the top platform is it better for me to be under the top platform or under one of the side platforms or somewhere else?


i want to try different approches in the falco ditto. ive tried DD pivot lasers -> DD nair/dair. doing only that has failed me before. i find that if my techskill is off ill regress to only doing that (happens more than i would like lol). im thinking about doing more walking -> _____ after i gain control... any tips?

 

[AvengerAngel]

.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjXTiKC0GRE this is the first video of GFs of oc3(PC wins going Fox after playing mostly Falco in WFs and losing). This occurred AFTER FCD when M2K ***** PC's everything(including Peach and both spacies probably) with Marth.

Lol as I was reading through all those nonsensical post I thought of that set x)
Also I kinda remember M2K saying he ***** Mango's Fox, but I'm not 100% sure about it D:

 

[Battlecow]

They went even in friendlies.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That set from 0c3 was siiiick!

 

[ArcNatural]

I did think their was one tournament that PC beat M2k with Fox (crazy set) , and M2k was sad because the previous tournament he played AMAZING but someone lost the footage where he destroyed PC. Would of had two epic sets of videos if it weren't for that.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I did think their was one tournament that PC beat M2k with Fox (crazy set) , and M2k was sad because the previous tournament he played AMAZING but someone lost the footage where he destroyed PC. Would of had two epic sets of videos if it weren't for that.

It's the set posted by PP lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

When someone's approaching from above, how good is crouching to lower your hurtbox and shining when they're in range? Is this reliable? If you **** up, you're CCing anyway.

It's actually not a half bad idea, but you have to remember everyone is spacing their moves for the most part so this strategy is somewhat unlikely to work. Now if it's against spacies then I'd say your odds of connecting are a little better.

i never use retreating SHLs! i feel like all they do is give the opponent room to work with...?

when should i use them? do they work better against certain characters?


also when the opponent is on the top platform is it better for me to be under the top platform or under one of the side platforms or somewhere else?


i want to try different approches in the falco ditto. ive tried DD pivot lasers -> DD nair/dair. doing only that has failed me before. i find that if my techskill is off ill regress to only doing that (happens more than i would like lol). im thinking about doing more walking -> _____ after i gain control... any tips?

SHLs: They're great when you have stage or suspect an opponent will approach. Doing small SHLs(either direction) can be great for micromanaging spacing. I'd say RSHLs are about worthless in Falco dittos(unless someone's coming from off of a platform at you lol) but otherwise they're useful in every matchup.

Top Platform: You can try to laser from a side platform(camping or approaching), or you can work your big vertical mobility from below(to attack), or you can just chill on the bottom and bait their attack. It just depends on what you wanna do and what your opponent wants to do.

Approaching in the ditto is tough, but honestly get your tech skill down before you worry. Tech skill problems account for a decent amount of stocks taken in Falco dittos, even between better players lol. Chances are it's not your method of approaching it's that you don't mix up your approach timing and spacing well enough.

Walking could be good in Falco dittos if you have control(aka your lasers are the ones out and the other guy is shielding lol), but otherwise I'm not sure when you'd use it except as a bait maybe....

Lol as I was reading through all those nonsensical post I thought of that set x)
Also I kinda remember M2K saying he ***** Mango's Fox, but I'm not 100% sure about it D:

I think he tells me he beats Mango's Fox a little more than he loses, but that's like Mango's "I don't care I haven't been playing this game and it's a local" Fox. Eh I dunno exactly I haven't seen their friendlies so I'm just speculating on some random matches lol.

 

[Rubyiris]

Falco mains: Do any of you guys have experience teaming with Samus players? Since my previous teams partner has effectively retired, I've been teaming with Coreygames for the past three months, and I'm looking to make her a permanent teams partner since our results are pretty consistent.

If any of you do, it would be really awesome if the lot of you could chime in on your experiences, and what you did/did not like to do.

 

[FrootLoop]

When I teamed with Rat we just sorta played separately because samus is pretty self sufficient and falco gets railed too quickly for samus to help a lot of the time. A big thing to decide is if samus should use missiles to help out or whatever. I am against them because they're slow and things can change by the time they get across the screen, and apart from low %, falco just gets gimped/destroyed once a missile hits him, while non-fastfaller opponents won't lose as much to the missile. Lasers worked well though to disrupt situations where samus has no control. Watch out for teams abusing samus long recovery and just generally keeping samus out to work falco in a 2v1

edit: it was just one tourney so maybe you can work up better teamwork to really incorporate playing as a unit, when you don't know your partners actions as much it can be better to stay away because if you both move for the same positions falco can die to erroneous dsmashes in the confusion.

 

[Druggedfox]

The vids where m2k played amazingly--> footage lost were indeed FCD where iirc he beat pc 6-0.

 

[Vaccine]

thanks pp

i think i know when a RSHL would help me out but i suck at explaining stuff so w/e.

u said RSHL r pretty much useless in falco dittos does that also go for those lasers ppl do when they dash away from their opponent and they sh in place and turn around and laser? i spam those

sorry i came up with more questions. i know im a scrub but im just trying to get better lol.

how do i deal with a peach thats floating at me just above SHL range on fd? i tried out running them and it didnt work.

when my back is to my opponents front and im pressuring their shield is it safe to shine them and wave dash away from them? im guessing it depends on grab range and where im at when i hit their with my shine..? im hoping it works on marth lol.

i had more questions but i forgot them. thanks in advance pp lol. i appreciate it!!!

 

[Dr Peepee]

thanks pp

i think i know when a RSHL would help me out but i suck at explaining stuff so w/e.

u said RSHL r pretty much useless in falco dittos does that also go for those lasers ppl do when they dash away from their opponent and they sh in place and turn around and laser? i spam those

sorry i came up with more questions. i know im a scrub but im just trying to get better lol.

how do i deal with a peach thats floating at me just above SHL range on fd? i tried out running them and it didnt work.

when my back is to my opponents front and im pressuring their shield is it safe to shine them and wave dash away from them? im guessing it depends on grab range and where im at when i hit their with my shine..? im hoping it works on marth lol.

i had more questions but i forgot them. thanks in advance pp lol. i appreciate it!!!

Those lasers you listed are alright pretty much anytime as long as you can keep having them out in Falco dittos lol.

FH'ing can screw with Peach's float because she has a hard time reacting to your height and aerial manipulation with hers. She usually goes back to the ground then but either way you can falling laser and hit her.
Any sort of feints to attack are good as well. If you can ever call when she will attack you can usually Nair her before her Fair comes out(or just punish her Nair on reaction).
Otherwise you should stick to holding your ground and punishing her after she FCs.

That last scenario works even if it's Marth I think(unless you're super deep on their shield lol).

No problem man glad I can help. =)

 

[-ACE-]

I bet twitch would 3-0 n00breon lol

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, definitely do NOT try to shine WD back in front of Marth. PP does the cross up fairly often, so I'd suggest trying that if anything. Personally, I would just recommend an immediate fade away aerial or just shield poke him cause it's Marth. lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think it's necessarily a good idea vs Marth(or really necessary given what you can do vs him in the current metagame at least), but used sparingly it's probably not too bad.

 

[Bones0]

I just get grabbed/up-B'd OoS almost any time I try it, and the only way I get a punish off of it is if they grab way too late, which is why I'd rather just bait the grab with a fade away aerial and stay safer. If you're behind him, he'll usually go for a wavesmash OoS, and if you don't get out of there asap you end up west coasting a tipper. It's a risk even with the cross up, but they'd have to read it in order to switch their WD direction because otherwise you'll catch them out of it going back. It also depends a lot on what you're conditioning with. If you fade away aerial all the time, it will obviously work more often than if you just go for regular shield pressure over and over and they go for the grab.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I'm thinking more long-term here. I'd never try it outright or right away, but if you have conditioned Marth to hold shield(aka you're pressuring more or fade away aerial'ing more or double shining more etc etc) then it seems like a solid mixup. If you're pressuring doing delayed stuff a lot or doing shine grab a lot then yeah this may not be as successful lol.

 

[Bones0]

Let's face it, if you've conditioned Marth to hold his shield you've already won.

 

[leffen]

why do people think fade away aerials are safe against marth... he can literally just react to it and fair oos

just do another jcshine/grab if you think hes gonna try to do something after your shine ;o, that way you're not making shieldpressure 70-30 in his favor lol

 

[Bones0]

why do people think fade away aerials are safe against marth... he can literally just react to it and fair oos

just do another jcshine/grab if you think hes gonna try to do something after your shine ;o, that way you're not making shieldpressure 70-30 in his favor lol

No he can't... M2K was trying to practice that vs. me at Pound and he didn't hit me once. Someone was talking about this a while ago and I'm pretty sure Niko agreed with me that Marth can't reach if you fade away properly.

Yeah, I hate seeing people get ***** by Marth's OoS... if you can't shield poke, just grab him bro. LOL

 

[leffen]

"Fade away properly" means that you were really far on his shield anyway, so hes gonna be safe from your next aerial->shine repetition anyway since you wont be able to reach enough into his shield that your next shine will hit anyway.

Also-If you use shield DI when you fair oos (like I/armada and other europeans do)- its not even close to being out of range lol.

At worst, he could still get you with jump->side b.

Oh, and shield poking marth shouldn't really happen if you actually know how shield poking/falco works. If he aims his shield upwards after shines (and a little infront to avoid shield pokes from 3+ jc shines) you can't really shield poke his shield. Sure, you can try and do latenair->dtilt, but he can just always be safe from it by always holding his shield down for a moment after your aerial and then punishing your dtilt with a reactionary fair/dair oos.


btw, mixxing in lightshielding raaaapes if the falco uses shine grab since the grab won't hit AND the falco has to guess since he can't react to you lightshielding or not.




oh nvm, just spam aerials because theres no way this game can develop anymore right.

 

[JPOBS]

No he can't... M2K was trying to practice that vs. me at Pound and he didn't hit me once. Someone was talking about this a while ago and I'm pretty sure Niko agreed with me that Marth can't reach if you fade away properly.

Yeah, I hate seeing people get ***** by Marth's OoS... if you can't shield poke, just grab him bro. LOL

lolwut?
When I play marth I fair falco's retreating nair oos ALL THE TIME.

 

[Niko45]

Leffen your 2nd point is made null by your first point about how if you aerial shine from too far away on his shield you're not threatening him further cause the next shine will miss (so why the **** would you shield DI in).

And then fair oos and jump side b (rofl) is still CCable into more **** even after that.

@jpobs they can space better

The problem with marth fair oos is that you have to do it instantly rising in order to still get the punish but by doing it instantly you lose a lot of range you would get by being able to wait even just a little bit.

 

[JPOBS]

yea it has its problems, and if you do it slowly they can CC it and then you're dealing with a whole other world of problems. My point was that you can fair it tho.

what do you mean they can space better? Retreating nair assumes they are close enough for the shine to hit your shield, and then retreating nair out of it. There's only so far you can go in a single shorthop backwards from a stationary position.

 

[Niko45]

it will whiff if the falco spaces at the edge of marth's shield

but yea it will punish aerial shine fade pressure on typical shield pressure spacing, but falco has better options than fading anyway

 

[Bones0]

The issue isn't so much as the spacing prior to the aerial, but how they fade away. Falco has to do the actual jump backwards where he flips, not just jump and then drift backwards. It makes a huge difference, and most people can't nair after a jump backwards (dair is really easy cause you can just c-stick it).

Also, yeah Niko, stop being so goddamned negative ya big idiot. jeez

 

[leffen]

You'd shield DI in at the ranges where its doubtful if you can reach without it (and where he can still continue his nair->shine pressure without fear of it missing)

This does not at ALL nullify my first point - its just another option that makes marth shield game better


Oh, and you are apparently just as lost in the CC debate as Hax and all the other omgccdestroysthegame fools.

YOU CAN NOT CC IN LAG.
When you'd punish falco he would still be in lag, so the best he could do is ASDI.
ASDI does not reduce your hitstun, and by moves that cause knockdown (say, marths tipper fair after ****ING 20%) _still_ cause knockdown! So if you asdi a marths fair above 20%, you hit the ground but you need to tech, and this no tech/tech marth could still punish

Remember, this is a punish that can be done on reaction, so expecting to an entire stock taking properties of fair oos is just ridiculous lol (altho its very possible to go from 20%-death if you read their tech after you fair)


stop talking being so ****ing negative and just try this out instead, you obviously haven't tried it enough to know that CC doesnt work >_>



@Bones - When falco jumps backwards, his animation doesn't change how far his total distance will be, it just indicates that you're holding back at the frame of your jump

and if you're waiting with your aerial that much (so that you can see what animation) marth could just wd oos/do whatever before your aerial anyway
and why would you not be able to do backwards jump-> nair, people do it ALL THE TIME for mango type pressure (when you have your back turned against him and use falcos/fox's animation backwards jump animation to bait whiffed grabs vs characters with low grabhitbox)