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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Dekar173

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Just throwing this out there:

Best player in NY:
Shadow (MK)

Best player in Cali:
Tyrant (MK)

Best player in Texas:
Dojo (MK)

Best player in NJ:
Atomsk (MK)

Best player in Florida:
Seibrik (MK)

Best player in Arizona:
Darklink (MK)

Best player in Utah:
Yaz (MK)

Best player in Louisiana:
Lee Martin (MK)

Best player in the world:
M2K (MK)



There's a pattern but I can't put my finger on it.
 

DMG

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Best player in NY is debatable. Anti could give Shadow a run for his money I think. Although you could still count that as MK depending on who Anti needs to win lol.
 

Dekar173

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Best player in NY is debatable. Anti could give Shadow a run for his money I think. Although you could still count that as MK depending on who Anti needs to win lol.
I just put Shadow because Anti doesn't enter as often as Shadow does lol. And ya, it's still a big fat MK right next to that name. ><
 

DMG

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I think Atomsk, recently, has proven himself a tad over ADHD. Him beating ADHD with MK also helps his case. However I would not list Atomsk as solely MK.
 

HRNUT (Honey Roasted)

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Just throwing this out there:

Best player in NY:
Shadow (MK)

Best player in Cali:
Tyrant (MK)

Best player in Texas:
Dojo (MK)

Best player in NJ:
Atomsk (MK)

Best player in Florida:
Seibrik (MK)

Best player in Arizona:
Darklink (MK)

Best player in Utah:
Yaz (MK)

Best player in Louisiana:
Lee Martin (MK)

Best player in the world:
M2K (MK)



There's a pattern but I can't put my finger on it.
I completely agree, its true if you look at the PRs of most states the No. 1 players on average are mk, and even if atomsk uses more d3 than mk, he still wouldn't be able to be No. 1 with just D3 imo, its just not gonna happen that way lol

In a few rare instances the top player in a state is not an mk, but that's usually mainly because not many players in those states play mk, or the mks in that state are just bad lol i think an example of this is, Georgia/Alabama, not many players there play mk or they aren't near top lvl mks by a long shot
 
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yes, I play B+... but I played vBrawl for longer and I have recently started playing vBrawl MK again.

Its disappointing that the actual idea in my post wasn't responded to AT ALL despite being the only thing even resembling original thought on this page.
I was trolling and obviously too lazy to read your big fat post. :laugh:

Looking at it again, it seems like a good idea. Would it be possible to turn one of MK's specials into literally ledge-drop->uair->jump->ualr with PSA? I figure if we can do that, making one do ledge-drop->downB up->regrab should be a snap. If it's just one special (say, sideB), then we have opportunities for a player to do it frame perfectly automatically, but still have options out of it should he want to change it up.

Just throwing this out there:

Best player in NY:
Shadow (MK)

Best player in Cali:
Tyrant (MK)

Best player in Texas:
Dojo (MK)

Best player in NJ:
Atomsk (MK)

Best player in Florida:
Seibrik (MK)

Best player in Arizona:
Darklink (MK)

Best player in Utah:
Yaz (MK)

Best player in Louisiana:
Lee Martin (MK)

Best player in the world:
M2K (MK)



There's a pattern but I can't put my finger on it.
Now the important question-are they the best players because they main MK, or do they main MK because he's the best character?
 

Mew2King

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Ummm are you serious did you just say ADHD Wasn't the best player in NJ and then not include Anti for NY? Best in FL is up in the air because they all have inconsistent results. CO18 can beat Ally half the time, ESAM did the best at MLG, Nick Riddle is just an oddball. FL is pretty well rounded. Arizona, Utah, and Louisiana have no competition, and DEHF was the best on WC for a really long time until recently. In fact, right now I would just say Tyrant is a better player than DEHF. Tyrant beat MikeHaze in a friendly set with Falco the night before Tourneyplay 5, and then the first day of tourneyplay 5 mikehaze beat DEHF in bracket. Tyrant for best Falco? As far as Dojo, yes he IS the best PLAYER in TX. Just his Diddy does better than almost everyone else's main vs me in that state, and has 2-0d Mikehaze in tourney before and does well at MK banned events despite using MK countless times more than he has practiced those other characters.
 

DMG

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His Diddy is pretty good. He reminds me a bit like aggressive ADHD.
 

theunabletable

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I agree with pretty much everything M2K said, except about the Florida stuff; because I don't know much about Florida :p

Oh and there's no doubt that Dojo is an incredible player. If you can take a set off M2K in the ****ing ditto, you're **** good.
 
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Ummm are you serious did you just say ADHD Wasn't the best player in NJ and then not include Anti for NY?

Best in FL is up in the air because they all have inconsistent results. CO18 can beat Ally half the time, ESAM did the best at MLG, Nick Riddle is just an oddball. FL is pretty well rounded.

Arizona, Utah, and Louisiana have no competition, and DEHF was the best on WC for a really long time until recently. In fact, right now I would just say Tyrant is a better player than DEHF. Tyrant beat MikeHaze in a friendly set with Falco the night before Tourneyplay 5, and then the first day of tourneyplay 5 mikehaze beat DEHF in bracket. Tyrant for best Falco?

As far as Dojo, yes he IS the best PLAYER in TX. Just his Diddy does better than almost everyone else's main vs me in that state, and has 2-0d Mikehaze in tourney before and does well at MK banned events despite using MK countless times more than he has practiced those other characters.
DEAR GOD SIR PARAGRAPHING HAVE YOU HEARD OF IT

Seems legit enough, I suppose?
 

etecoon

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I can do this too

best in NE: fatal(snake)

best in NJ: ADHD(diddy)

best in MD/VA: candy(snake)

best in canada: ally(snake)

best in the UK: calzorz(snake)

best in PA: squall(snake)

best in NY state: san(IKE)

best in pacific northwest: felix(diddy)

BAN SNAKE

(but seriously why does no one discuss MK's intrinsic properties anymore? the first few ban threads actually discussed his character, got into his MU's and how effective his range/frame advantages were and stuff...now it's only "_____ uses MK!!! btw planking is broken we should ban MK because other characters can't do it and it happens CONSTANTLY given the current LGL!", lame)
 
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I can do this too

best in NE: fatal(snake)

best in NJ: ADHD(diddy)

best in MD/VA: candy(snake)

best in canada: ally(snake)

best in the UK: calzorz(snake)

best in PA: squall(snake)

best in NY state: san(IKE)

best in pacific northwest: felix(diddy)

BAN SNAKE

(but seriously why does no one discuss MK's intrinsic properties anymore? the first few ban threads actually discussed his character, got into his MU's and how effective his range/frame advantages were and stuff...now it's only "_____ uses MK!!! btw planking is broken we should ban MK because other characters can't do it and it happens CONSTANTLY given the current LGL!", lame)
Because they've been ignored to death? We've pointed out that he's ridiculously safe, that his options beat everyone, that he's like a faster marth that can't clash with ****, and has a recovery that would be worse if it just teleported him to a random point on the field as soon as he regains full aerial control.

EDIT: Also, seriously? How many of those are national level? And SAN? Seriously?
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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Etecoon strikes again. :)

Seriously though, all that MU, frame safe and his 'intrinsic properties' as you've said has been discussed to death in 'the first few ban threads' and at the beginning of this thread. It would just be repeating the same points everyone's heard a million times, goin round in circles.
& lol at your best for each state.
 

etecoon

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It would just be repeating the same points everyone's heard a million times, goin round in circles.
kind of like...this thread?

& lol at your best for each state.
I checked power rankings for most of those before posting soooo...don't blame me : p that post in no way reflects personal opinion of mine as to who is and isn't the best, it's simply either something I grabbed off of PR's this morning or was PR as far as my memory serves me

Also, seriously? How many of those are national level? And SAN? Seriously?
define "national level". and LOL random that doesn't go to tournaments disrespecting san, seriously WTF
 

Gnes

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Ummm are you serious did you just say ADHD Wasn't the best player in NJ and then not include Anti for NY? Best in FL is up in the air because they all have inconsistent results. CO18 can beat Ally half the time, ESAM did the best at MLG, Nick Riddle is just an oddball. FL is pretty well rounded. Arizona, Utah, and Louisiana have no competition, and DEHF was the best on WC for a really long time until recently. In fact, right now I would just say Tyrant is a better player than DEHF. Tyrant beat MikeHaze in a friendly set with Falco the night before Tourneyplay 5, and then the first day of tourneyplay 5 mikehaze beat DEHF in bracket. Tyrant for best Falco? As far as Dojo, yes he IS the best PLAYER in TX. Just his Diddy does better than almost everyone else's main vs me in that state, and has 2-0d Mikehaze in tourney before and does well at MK banned events despite using MK countless times more than he has practiced those other characters.
LMAFO at dojo's diddy being good. His Kirby is WAYYYYYYY better than his diddy.
I can do this too

best in NE: fatal(snake)

best in NJ: ADHD(diddy)

best in MD/VA: candy(snake)

best in canada: ally(snake)

best in the UK: calzorz(snake)

best in PA: squall(snake)

best in NY state: san(IKE)

best in pacific northwest: felix(diddy)

BAN SNAKE

(but seriously why does no one discuss MK's intrinsic properties anymore? the first few ban threads actually discussed his character, got into his MU's and how effective his range/frame advantages were and stuff...now it's only "_____ uses MK!!! btw planking is broken we should ban MK because other characters can't do it and it happens CONSTANTLY given the current LGL!", lame)
Because the properties have been discussed. Everyone knows what he can do, whats the point in talking about it anymore.
 

Akaku94

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I hate how the pro-ban keeps showing argument upon argument why MK is broken, and how anti-ban's argument amounts to "So?" By avoiding argument, the anti-ban side is winning, because nobody sees a reason to ban with no debate!

:kirby:
 

Nidtendofreak

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I can help anti-ban. A tad. Ever so slightly. Kinda. With something that isn't being argued over.

Nobody should ever get Uair chained by MK, as seen in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM

Look at 50 seconds in.

learn2SDIpeople

And BPC has obviously never seen San play. He beat Ally
's Falcon in Low Tier Grand Finals at WHOBO2.
 
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I can help anti-ban. A tad. Ever so slightly. Kinda. With something that isn't being argued over.

Nobody should ever get Uair chained by MK, as seen in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM

Look at 50 seconds in.

learn2SDIpeople

And BPC has obviously never seen San play. He beat Ally
's Falcon in Low Tier Grand Finals at WHOBO2.
Yeah, CF is an even worse character than Ike. Not saying San is a bad player (in fact, he's probably amazing to be that high on the PRs with IKE), but it's like that quote with Xyro-national-class skill, terrible, terrible character.

I hate how the pro-ban keeps showing argument upon argument why MK is broken, and how anti-ban's argument amounts to "So?" By avoiding argument, the anti-ban side is winning, because nobody sees a reason to ban with no debate!

:kirby:
Yeah, welcome to the MK ban thread.
 

san.

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The funny thing is san is really ****ing good but pikapika beats him simply by switching to mk. I don't think san has won in a while.
I won 2-0 vs his MK last time I played him. My record vs his MK is pretty much even from all the tourney sets. He didn't just switch MK before he started to win against me. It took him at least a tourney or two to understand how I played when he used MK.
 

DanGR

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How bout you guys look at the character in question and not it's many players.

I'd just like to point out that LGLs are a direct response to MK being really good on the ledge. The limits are premature and unwarranted, as the strategy itself was new and relatively UNTESTED before TOs decided to limit it. Not only that, but the limits directly affect other characters that need the ledge as well.

I basically quit Smash because all the TOs in my area are too stupid, ignorant, and anti-competitive to realize how dumb a rule it is.
 

Veril

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How bout you guys look at the character in question and not it's many players.

I'd just like to point out that LGLs are a direct response to MK being really good on the ledge. The limits are premature and unwarranted, as the strategy itself was new and relatively UNTESTED before TOs decided to limit it.

I basically quit Smash because all the TOs in my area are too stupid, ignorant, and anti-competitive to realize how dumb a rule it is.
:mad:
"screams"

OK, I'm gonna repost the wall of text I supplied before the ~3 pages of bulls*** covered it up. This is how to go about proving any point that requires planking data.

The data supplied for MK's planking is nearly enough proof to show that perfect planking is unbeatable. Not just really good, completely beyond the capacity of any human, regardless of skill, to counter except by never letting MK have the lead. That advantage is so great that I believe it would meet even the strictest criteria for a surgical ruling to limit planking.

You should have taken note of the "nearly" I put in there. The evidence is extremely strong, however given that it is within our capabilities to prove beyond any doubt that it is not possible to punish the vulnerability period of perfect planking, with the tools we have available (visible hitbubbles, psa, frame advance, skill trainers... I've been working on a research plan for this). It would be a large time and work commitment that would require several people working on it but it is possible to test, perfectly and completely, all the options that could be used against perfect planking and weigh them against the many permutations of planking the MK can take advantage of.

Basically create several frame accurate input maps for the best permutations of planking (variable spacing, frame perfect execution) and create a skill trainer based around this. In frame advance, using visible hitbubbles and with all the characters of A-tier or higher demonstrate that there is no safe way to position a hitbox to intercept MK during his frame of vulnerability on the down-b ledge regrab (the only true counter option to planking). Its frame perfect so skill and reaction time aren't an issue for the tester. If there is any option this would reveal it. Get video. On paper MK flat wins, but this would be concrete irrefutable proof of the broken nature of planking and you could even show this by making the plank trainer available, providing much more detailed info than even what DMG has (DMG is amazing though fo' reals), and having the visual proof that people unfamiliar with frame data analysis can understand more readily.



I hate the MK debate btw. I'm sure most of us do at this point, ESPECIALLY people who are conflicted about this and feel sort of alienated from both pro and anti-ban. This is my first major post regarding the issue and I hope it at least adds something new to the debate. Like many people I main metaknight in Brawl, and I am not persuaded by the pro-ban argument that he is detrimental to the game. Brawl is what it is, if I don't want to play it I'll play B+. MK has a really amazing set of capabilities and no hard counter. That's a reflection of the poor balance of this game, but not a reason to remove him. On the other hand if MK genuinely has a strategy that is proven as unbeatable, and which requires a surgical rule that hinders EVERY other character unnecessarily, than I would support either a ban or a lgl specifically targeting MK. Though people can argue that it is a slippery slope, this isn't really a substantive argument if there is a very specific problem and effective enforceable means to deal with it.

Don't flame me plz :(
 

DanGR

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:mad:
"screams"

OK, I'm gonna repost the wall of text I supplied before the ~3 pages of bulls*** covered it up. This is how to go about proving any point that requires planking data.
What sort of logic are you using to conclude that universal LGLs are justified because MK's planking is unbeatable? (assuming it is unbeatable)

Would you ban JUMPING in SF2T because Akuma's aerial fireball was so monstrous?
 
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