Official Metaknight Discussion

[napZzz]

I had just edited my thing from pages to posts because I forgot how not everyone has that **** the same before you posted lol

 

[Tien2500]

and yet it's completely ok for us to make casual reference to **** and call everything we don't like gay. lol smash community hypocrisy

I'm not being hypocritical, as I haven't endorsed or used either of those terms.

 

[cutter]

Regardless, it's still over 12,000 posts for a single thread in about 4 and a half months.

All I really care about is that the community doesn't die out... because when the community falls, the site falls.

Spoiler

This is of course, not disregarding all the pointless spam lol.

 

[etecoon]

just saying that in general no one gets upset about those things, we have a double standard where it's acceptable to make fun of some things but not others that is pretty silly IMO

 

[rathy Aro]

I think the smash community very accepting of all types of offensive jokes. From racist to homophobic.

I think talking about planking is useful. If pro-ban can show that planking is broken even with LGL then anti-ban can't deny mk is ban worthy. That said. Mk mains need to be more gay so we can ban your character faster.

 

[napZzz]

Planking IS that broken for mk. Its just that most metaknights dont have to resort to it because it isn't necessary, he's just that good.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ban all stages with permanent ledges. Problem solved.

 

[etecoon]

or you could ban the actual problem(meta knight)

 

[Karcist]

Metaknight is my new doubles main. Sorry, he is just too overbalanced in doubles to pass up.

 

[AllyKnight]

I think we're getting to the point where the BBR needs to wake up and tell us something about what's going on back there. It's clear from this thread that the vast majority of people agree that something must be done about MK...it's been dozens of pages since someone came in here supporting anti-ban to didn't later turn out to be a *******. BBR, anything you can tell us about anything?

Your mom has alot of potential.

 

[giuocob]

Your mom has alot of potential.

Excellent! We have a new point to debate about.

I personally believe my mom has very little potential. What evidence do you have to support that claim?

 

[AllyKnight]

Excellent! We have a new point to debate about.

I personally believe my mom has very little potential. What evidence do you have to support that claim?

She mains MK. LOL

 

[swordgard]

I am still unsure whether we can actually ban MK. I mean, to hit him with a banhammer, he'd need to be onstage, but he's still planking near MLG for safety.

 

[Akaku94]

You'd think the best Smash message board on the net would have better discussion than this... seriously, guys, how about we figure out a solution instead of debating the same points and quit the flaming and trolling? I'm in favor of an experimental temporary ban for a few months, just to see how the metagame changes in his absence. After that, the Back Room can make a descision based on that, instead of all these hypotheticals and how much potential my mom does or doesn't have... lol

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So, how do we define a rigid LGL?
And why are we limiting other characters offstage potential just because of one character who can't be beaten without an LGL?

 

[John12346]

Mk mains need to be more gay so we can ban your character faster.

This is why I secretly wish to myself MK mains will someday find that MK has a Dedede chaingrab or a GaW bucketbrake or something lol

 

[Kith]

I see not much has changed since the last time I was on this thread. :-/....

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, how do we define a rigid LGL?
And why are we limiting other characters offstage potential just because of one character who can't be beaten without an LGL?

We don't. We apply one only to MK.

 

[BSP]

If anyone's willing, we should talk about what MK's planking does. I know DMG made a thread about it, but it doesn't seem to get as much attention as it should. But anyway, from looking at that thread, MK has 1 frame of vulnerability if he planks right. So, if he's vulnerable and can be stopped, why are we putting limits on his planking? Why are we limiting other character's ledge games with beatable planking because of one character with (almost) perfect planking?

 

[bigbucks]

Can we just put a Set Ledge grab limit when somebodys recovering? or going to the ledge?


If the MK or *insert decent planker here* is blown offstage an reaches the ledge, he should have a limit of 10 Ledge grabs before hes forced to go onstage again. If he goes to the ledge on purpose, he should have 5 ledgegrabs before hes forced to grab the ledge again.

Oh well, i'm not an expert when thinking or rules. So i will probably have flaws in my post. .-.

 

[DMG]

There's a difference between beatable, and reasonably beatable. 1 Frame Window is not something reasonable for people to punish. That's just for Down B. For Uair, he's basically untouchable unless you can OOS down air fast enough with your character frame perfectly, and the only character that can probably do that range and speedwise is another MK himself. The one last thing is an Upb OOS if it will reach low enough after he hits your shield. Only two people I think that could pull it off are MK and Marth, and Marth IDK if he reaches low enough.

 

[rathy Aro]

So, if he's vulnerable and can be stopped, why are we putting limits on his planking?

If you're being practical you would know ONE FRAME of vulnerability is not enough to say MK's planking isn't the most powerful strategy in the GAME. Think of mk's worst matchups (you know, the ones that are 55-45 in his favor). Snake and Falco only do that well, because they are supposed to have some ability to force on approach and camp MK. With planking all he has to do is get the advantage once and he can now force an approach in the worst possible way. He actually forces you into the most dangerous scenario in the game (fighting mk off the edge). Think practically about how this would change the whole way the matchup plays out.

I still think we should get rid of LGLs until MKs actually start ****** with it.

 

[bigbucks]

MK has 4 frames of vulnerability to be exact

 

[Tien2500]

Can we just put a Set Ledge grab limit when somebodys recovering? or going to the ledge?


If the MK or *insert decent planker here* is blown offstage an reaches the ledge, he should have a limit of 10 Ledge grabs before hes forced to go onstage again. If he goes to the ledge on purpose, he should have 5 ledgegrabs before hes forced to grab the ledge again.

Oh well, i'm not an expert when thinking or rules. So i will probably have flaws in my post. .-.

The problem is that this is unenforcable. Unless you have a ref watching every single match there is no way to tell if someone grabbed the ledge 5 times or 10 times. With a total ledge grab limit you can always check after the match. Unfortunately any limit you make has to be arbitrary.

 

[DMG]

1 frame grabbing the edge with Down B

Something like 3 frames vulnerable if he hits your shield and you drop it perfectly. Not enough time for anything but a MK Ftilt which will probably not hit low enough. You can Upb OOS but the only things that will likely hit are a Marth or MK Upb OOS. Marth IDK if he hits low enough but he might. This is also for only the second Uair, the first one is completely invincible and retaliating is futile lol.

If you can PS it, you CAN try to run off and punish it, or jump and Dair, or if they rise too high use a low hitting fast attack like a Marth Dtilt, but a lot of that is based on the MK messing up on his height. Running off will take some time though, might be hard to punish with anything.

 

[Judo777]

Man i swear i have said this like 10 times but ill say it again. Pit CANNOT plank as well as MK for one great reason. If the Pit screws up which btw he doesnt even have to, YOU CAN ACTUALLY GO OFFSTAGE TO FIGHT HIM. MK beats EVERYONE OFFSTAGE BY ALOT! Even if MK screws up you cannot goo offstage with out risking getting absolutely *****. Pits air game is good at best but i know about 5 characters off the top of my head that can go offstage and mess him up.

Tell me a character that beats MK offstage and ill be impressed.

inb4somebodycomesinandsayssomestupidcharacterlikepitbeatsmkoffstage

Wait DMG so what u just told us i think is that we would need to effectively powershield both uairs or jump in after the first uair and powershield the second? Lol good luck with that people!

 

[Kewkky]

The problem is that this is unenforcable. Unless you have a ref watching every single match there is no way to tell if someone grabbed the ledge 5 times or 10 times. With a total ledge grab limit you can always check after the match. Unfortunately any limit you make has to be arbitrary.

Why's that unfortunate? Isn't pretty much every rule "arbitrary"? If you ask me, as long as a general consensus is made and the majority agrees to X limit in Y rule, then that rule is good enough for competitive play (of course, agreed upon by people that know what they're talking about).

Why 8 minutes? Why not 7 or 9? Timer's number is arbitrary, the only reason it was chosen to be 8 was because of people deciding that it was enough to prevent winning by timeouts all the time, and short enough to not drag on tourneys for far too long.

Why 3 stocks? Why not 2 or 4? Same thing, pretty much. 3 is an arbitrary number here, since it's not set in stone anywhere that it should be 3, just like how in Melee it's 4 stocks instead of 3 or 5.


Now, you might want to point out that "it's what everyone would like the rules to be", but it's only so because everyone has gotten accustomed to playing with the rules that way. If everyone would've started out playing with 4 stocks, and to this day everyone would still be playing with 4 stocks, then people would be skeptical of lowering the stock count to 3. Why? Because the majority doesn't like it. Does it mean it's the best choice to keep it that way? No, which makes it arbitrary: completely dependent on what people want it to be, and not what the game forces it to be.

 

[Veril]

I still think we should get rid of LGLs until MKs actually start ****** with it.

This is an incredibly bad idea. I don't think we should even need to debate why that is a bad idea, but for the sake of that being this threads purpose... The data supplied for MK's planking is nearly enough proof to show that perfect planking is unbeatable. Not just really good, completely beyond the capacity of any human, regardless of skill, to counter except by never letting MK have the lead. That advantage is so great that I believe it would meet even the strictest criteria for a surgical ruling to limit planking.

You should have taken note of the "nearly" I put in there. The evidence is extremely strong, however given that it is within our capabilities to prove beyond any doubt that it is not possible to punish the vulnerability period of perfect planking, with the tools we have available (visible hitbubbles, psa, frame advance, skill trainers... I've been working on a research plan for this). It would be a large time and work commitment that would require several people working on it but it is possible to test, perfectly and completely, all the options that could be used against perfect planking and weigh them against the many permutations of planking the MK can take advantage of.

Basically create several frame accurate input maps for the best permutations of planking (variable spacing, frame perfect execution) and create a skill trainer based around this. In frame advance, using visible hitbubbles and with all the characters of A-tier or higher demonstrate that there is no safe way to position a hitbox to intercept MK during his frame of vulnerability on the down-b ledge regrab (the only true counter option to planking). Its frame perfect so skill and reaction time aren't an issue for the tester. If there is any option this would reveal it. Get video. On paper MK flat wins, but this would be concrete irrefutable proof of the broken nature of planking and you could even show this by making the plank trainer available, providing much more detailed info than even what DMG has (DMG is amazing though fo' reals), and having the visual proof that people unfamiliar with frame data analysis can understand more readily.



I hate the MK debate btw. I'm sure most of us do at this point, ESPECIALLY people who are conflicted about this and feel sort of alienated from both pro and anti-ban. This is my first major post regarding the issue and I hope it at least adds something new to the debate. Like many people I main metaknight in Brawl, and I am not persuaded by the pro-ban argument that he is detrimental to the game. Brawl is what it is, if I don't want to play it I'll play B+. MK has a really amazing set of capabilities and no hard counter. That's a reflection of the poor balance of this game, but not a reason to remove him. On the other hand if MK genuinely has a strategy that is proven as unbeatable, and which requires a surgical rule that hinders EVERY other character unnecessarily, than I would support either a ban or a lgl specifically targeting MK. Though people can argue that it is a slippery slope, this isn't really a substantive argument if there is a very specific problem and effective enforceable means to deal with it.

Don't flame me plz

 

[Kaffei]

Ban Brinstar & RC

 

[BSP]

If you're being practical you would know ONE FRAME of vulnerability is not enough to say MK's planking isn't the most powerful strategy in the GAME.

I was gonna go somewhere with this, but I forgot what I was going to say >.> Nonetheless, I agree that's it's a really powerfull tactic.

Just wondering, what's considered "wrong" with character specific limits?

 

[Slashy]

I suggested making all banned stages available when countering him. Who do you honestly think will win on Mario Bros.

MK or Sonic?

 

[John12346]

I've seen Metaknights beat Diddies and ICs on FD.

Given that, I honestly don't think banning RC and Brinstar will drop him from #1. Granted, it will help anyone facing against a MK main by significant margin, but MK will still be way too dominant regardless.

 

[Kaffei]

I've seen Metaknights beat Diddies and ICs on FD.

Given that, I honestly don't think banning RC and Brinstar will drop him from #1. Granted, it will help anyone facing against a MK main by significant margin, but MK will still be way too dominant regardless.

I know, but it would still help other characters slightly win more often. Notice how M2K wins vs Ally when he CPs Brinstar but whenever he doesn't pick Brinstar at tourneys it can go either way? I know M2K and Ally are outliers but still..

 

[Orion*]

I've seen Metaknights beat Diddies and ICs on FD.ive seen ganon beat metaknights. what about it? dont use that as an example lolu

Given that, I honestly don't think banning RC and Brinstar will drop him from #1. Granted, it will help anyone facing against a MK main by significant margin, but MK will still be way too dominant regardless.

if you get rid of those two stages mks best cp is delfino. which with one ban (which is standard) he cant take you to some stupid *** stage. and dont say frigate or something, ceiling is mad low and hes really not amazing on that stage in comparison to other characters.
it doesnt really matter if you drop mk from #1 spot or not, there will ALWAYS be a best character. the problem is that the cp system favors mk so greatly that he will ALWAYS have a obnoxiously gay counterpick stage.

 

[Kaffei]

if you get rid of those two stages mks best cp is delfino. which with one ban (which is standard) he cant take you to some stupid *** stage. and dont say frigate or something, ceiling is mad low and hes really not amazing on that stage in comparison to other characters.
it doesnt really matter if you drop mk from #1 spot or not, there will ALWAYS be a best character. the problem is that the cp system favors mk so greatly that he will ALWAYS have a obnoxiously gay counterpick stage.

That's my point chars like IC who do pretty well vs MK on like FD are not so good on RC or Brinstar. The MK will ban FD and IC can only ban RC or Brinstar, even if you ban Brinstar/RC MK still has Brinstar/RC...

 

[Judo777]

Actually bar snake and maybe wario MK has an enormous advantage on just about everyone on Frigate. Shuttle loop someone in the right direction at any percent above 40 and they are probably gonna die in the first phase. because most of the cast especially the higher tiers dont have the ability to recover that far with leaving themselves wide open. Diddy, IC's, Marth, Falco are all gonna have a pretty hard time getting back on that right side. While that maybe true for them against alot of characters on that stage its amplified by the fact that Shuttle loop sends you soo stupidly far offstage at any decent percent.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Brawl is what it is, if I don't want to play it I'll play B+.

You do.

 

[Veril]

You do.

yes, I play B+... but I played vBrawl for longer and I have recently started playing vBrawl MK again.

Its disappointing that the actual idea in my post wasn't responded to AT ALL despite being the only thing even resembling original thought on this page.

 

[Throwback]

welcome to the interwebs Veril.

 

[Kitamerby]

I suggested making all banned stages available when countering him. Who do you honestly think will win on Mario Bros.

MK or Sonic?

MK will. He has more tools to get and utilize the items.

Fox is a better option when considering Mario Bros lol.