Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

people get INTO the mbr by talking knowledgeably on the public forums. just because they made it in doesn't mean they can start saying things in public forums without giving any reasoning or evidence to back their statements up.

 

[ShroudedOne]

1) Chok has a lot of confidence in Ylink. I'm not sure that I see why, but it seems a little odd to me that Falco/Ylink wouldn't be 70:30 in Falco's favor. Peach/Ylink at even actually makes sense to me, too.

2) Is Zelda THAT good against ICs? I mean, she has f-smash and kicks for separating them, but I think I'd need to hear a little more than that to convince me that she handles them.

3) Marth can combo well and has awesome range, but it seems like when you apply pressure to him, he doesn't have quick answers (which I guess makes the Peach and Samus MUs not that bad?)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Zelda loses slightly to ICs.

Sure, she has tools for keeping them out and KO'ing Nana, but they are nowhere near comparable to those of the top tiers who beat ICs.

 

[choknater]

ic's are supposed to camp zelda. IMO the matchup is 70:30 ic's if ic's camp properly behind desynched ice blocks and blizzards

trust me i know my young link!

sheik vs ylink is his worst matchup, falco is not that bad.

here is the best reference (falco is decent, slightly above average but not super great.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gi6DZh5IEE

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm with Chok, YL is mad underrated. His KO ability is underrated and his ledge game and momentum game are amazing.

 

[Niko45]

based on my discussions with otg and what I've seen doc is significantly better than samus and ganon and should be in IC's tier

as far as his recovery goes we've sorta agreed that it's average/above average for the cast. If he has all his options (DJ, cape, tornado, pills, didn't miss DI) he is probably getting back. If he missed DI or lost his DJ he is probably not.

Luigi's recovery, as ******** as it seems, is actually pretty ok imo. Some characters bone him pretty badly, but a lot of characters have big problems edgeguarding him. Luigi is significantly better than DK or Link and could potentially move up to the bottom of the Ganon/Samus/Pikachu tier.

 

[choknater]

doc's recovery is amazing imo

as long as he recovers high and uses his double jump early and throws pills, he is probably getting back

you take a risk by challenging pills but imo it's the only reliable way to edgeguard him

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

people get INTO the mbr by talking knowledgeably on the public forums. just because they made it in doesn't mean they can start saying things in public forums without giving any reasoning or evidence to back their statements up.

how far should i have to explain myself? To what level of thought are we going down? To someone who knows nothing of the game, i might have to explain how its possible to waveshine usmash peach or uthrow uair and how that makes it easy to kill her. Some of these people then say "no thats not possible" and at that point i stop discussing with them because they obviously don't know what they are talking about and all i can really say is "yes you can" or play against them and show them. Similar things have happened to me so many times in the public forums that I stopped explaining at all. If you understand what i'm talking about, you can agree or refute. If you don't then you can simply try to say i'm wrong.

tl;dr walls of text are overrated, i feel its best to keep my point as simply stated as possible.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Doc's recovery is either decent or really bad. I'll give you that his high recovery is pretty solid because of his ridiculous dair priority, pills, cape, etc. but his low recovery is pretty easily dealt with by most good characters, IMO.

 

[Kal]

3) Marth can combo well and has awesome range, but it seems like when you apply pressure to him, he doesn't have quick answers (which I guess makes the Peach and Samus MUs not that bad?)

Yeah, Marth has serious issues when he is put into pressure. This is why spacing with him is so vital. His inability to quickly punish things is what causes worse players (and even some better players) to "noob roll," or roll aggressively behind the opponent, so often. Only a Marth who's really on top of things will punish you for it.

 

[choknater]

Doc's recovery is either decent or really bad. I'll give you that his high recovery is pretty solid because of his ridiculous dair priority, pills, cape, etc. but his low recovery is pretty easily dealt with by most good characters, IMO.

like how? his up B is really solid.

for his low recovery, he has a few options to stall so i think it's even comparable to marth's. he can cape once, down-B, double jump, and use a multi-hit high priority up B much like the start of peach's parasol. solid recovery.

also, it's pretty rare that he'll be forced to do a low recovery anyway.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ignoring the plausibility of whether or not he should be recovering low or not, during all of those air stalls and strange options it's really easy to ledgehop an invincible aerial him. The invincibility on Up+B's startup doesn't mean much when the opponent's also invincible (and for much longer).

 

[choknater]

if you did an invincible ledge hop, that means you just grabbed the ledge. in order to grab the ledge, you need to quickly get onto it. normally for that fast up-B type recovery (peach, doc, marth, mario) you can scout when the person can grab the ledge quickly enough or when they can't. it's up to the player recovering to find this moment and try to hit the edgeguarding player with the up-B or stall with whatever options he/she has

basically to avoid the invincibilty

i think doc can do it just as well as marth can

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Ignoring the plausibility of whether or not he should be recovering low or not, during all of those air stalls and strange options it's really easy to ledgehop an invincible aerial him. The invincibility on Up+B's startup doesn't mean much when the opponent's also invincible (and for much longer).

i think i know how to edge guard shroomed now

 

[choknater]

shoutouts to ganon's invincible edge stall

 

[V3ctorMan]

shoutouts to Yoshi, Shield w/no shield stab....EVER!! <3

Sorry.. >.> i wanted to fit in.. <3

 

[KirbyKaze]

stuff

If Doc is so close to the edge that he can hit the opponent with Up+B before they grab the edge then yeah it's a good recovery under those specific circumstances. But if he has to double jump > cape, or double jump, or whatever then it's very easy to grab the edge from him and use a systematic timing to cover his options from there.

.

 

[KAOSTAR]

On a more light-hearted note, I'm sort of afraid to ask people if they feel Mewtwo is better than Zelda or not. But I'm curious to whether anyone has anything new to say about that one. Though, there hasn't been much development for either character in the past few months (that I know of) what with Cosmo playing OOT and Taj playing Marth at Genesis 2. But maybe I just missed something important?

Overall zelda is probably slightly better. Her lightning kicks do way better against floaties. M2 has to pretty much play the slow spacing game. They both get ***** by fox, falco is a bit easier. Im assuming zelda falcon is no fun, but I dont know how zelda players feel about it. Close enough to be tied, but I wouldnt see any problems with either being directly above the other.

 

[choknater]

alright kirby wind, i see what you're getting at

i'm currently watching the s2j vs shroomed WF set, amazing set, and s2j's way of edgeguarding him seems to be hitting him before he can throw pills out. it seems that hitting him before he can get any moves going is also good, as opposed to waiting for him to use those moves and then punishing him for them

 

[leffen]

Hi KK.

I actually agree with you a huge deal (ganon is really overrated, Doc Samus and maybe pika and luigi are better imo and I think Y.link is better than link but worse than DK.

I also agree with Taj that mewtwo is prob better in the current metagame.
I think Yoshi belongs in high mid tier too tbh but I dont know where yet ;o

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think Yoshi belongs in high mid tier too tbh but I dont know where yet ;o

I suggested that once and everyone laughed at me.

I bet everyone is going to be like "Hmm, I don't necessarily agree, but I can see where you are coming from leffen! Great post!" just because of your reputation

 

[Winston]

^ No, I was actually going to be like "wtf are you talking about leffen? explain", but didn't because I don't know jack about yoshi and didn't really want to get yelled at by leffen.

 

[choknater]

it takes a yoshi player to know yoshi's potential. normal people like me have always considered him "too technical to access." but apparently in 2011 that isn't a barrier for anyone.

i'd like to hear what leffen has to say about the character

what do you think his strengths are?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Also, this thread is cool, imma gonna hang around here a bit more.

 

[leffen]

Oh god.

I'm going to write a post soon but I gotta do some **** atm ;p

but yeah, if you havent played yoshi for 100+ hours in the last year then you have NO right whatsoever to speak about his potential, his metagame atm can only be compared with Fox's before SHFFL, Lcancel and canceling shine with jump.

Honestly, I'm probably the only one who know about his true potential since the only other high level yoshi player is V3ctorman and he is not active+he isnt focusing on yoshi when he plays (and he isnt trying to implement a lot of imho, essential stuff).

I'm gonna do my best to deliver a lenghty, indepth post sometime in the near future than will go through his new techniques, their uses in the top tier matchups, how yoshi actually functions and how yoshis new metagame is gonna be like.

 

[choknater]

thanks! that'd be pretty awesome. i'ma take notes so that i can actually learn to play the character well too. i've always considered myself very diverse, but there are two characters in the game that always put up a brick wall for me

bowser - because he sucks
yoshi - because he is too technical. even mewtwo is easy compared to yoshi.

i'm looking forward to this

 

[leffen]

Yeah Yoshi is the hardest character in the game to be consistent with and the most technical imho.

(I'm pretty damn technical with fox/falco/etc so I wouldnt call me biased, I'd call me experienced).

 

[choknater]

special shoutoutz 2 fumi.

 

[Veetaak]

Yeah Yoshi is the hardest character in the game to be consistent with and the most technical imho.

(I'm pretty damn technical with fox/falco/etc so I wouldnt call me biased, I'd call me experienced).

What's up with you having new and random girls as your avatar every day?

You are like the only one who does that on this forum

 

[ShroudedOne]

You only have to watch Vman or leffen play Yoshi, to get a glimpse of how technical he is. If I didn't care about developing arthritis at 22, I'd try to pick up Yoshi.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I think Y.link is better than link

Why? I always felt the range was too much of a sacrifice for a character who is still overall slow.

 

[leffen]

What's up with you having new and random girls as your avatar every day?

You are like the only one who does that on this forum

Oh and who are you to talk, you have a falco picture in every single one of your facebook pictures


and Ylink is so much faster I think it makes up for his range being shorter.

 

[choknater]

shrouded

just gotta stretch your hands a lot to avoid things like arthritis, tendonitis, carpal tunnel, etc. take breaks and stuff. i can play tryhard fox for a couple hours straight before i start hurting, then i just stretch and switch characters. tournys and stuff have plenty of breaks too

and yes

ylink is WAY faster than ylink. frame data, running speed, horizontal aerial movement, jump speed, everything. he's way faster.

link has to play a lot of footsies with his range, and he's far better than ylink in that regard. out of all the clones, these two are probably the most different.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Oh and who are you to talk, you have a falco picture in every single one of your facebook pictures


and Ylink is so much faster I think it makes up for his range being shorter.

is that LIGHTS???

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

shrouded

just gotta stretch your hands a lot to avoid things like arthritis, tendonitis, carpal tunnel, etc. take breaks and stuff. i can play tryhard fox for a couple hours straight before i start hurting, then i just stretch and switch characters. tournys and stuff have plenty of breaks too

and yes

ylink is WAY faster than ylink. frame data, running speed, horizontal aerial movement, jump speed, everything. he's way faster.

link has to play a lot of footsies with his range, and he's far better than ylink in that regard. out of all the clones, these two are probably the most different.

Ganon and Falcon are definitely the most different....

 

[choknater]

haha alright

well judging that is entirely subjective anyway

so my opinion is that ylink and link are the most different

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No marth and roy are the most different

Spoiler

on the tier list

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pichu and Pikachu are not the most different.

 

[Stevo]

Doc and Mario are the most different

Spoiler

in salary

 

[choknater]

Popo and Nana are the most different

Spoiler

in sex