Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda and Sheik are the most similar.

 

[choknater]

haha anyway back to serious talk.

this is my current personal conception of the tier list. i can see peepee quoting this and saying "why" so i am ready for any explanations!

letter tiers are weird so i'm just gonna number them

1.
FOX
FALCO
(tier separation? idk i don't think i'd put one, but i'd consider it.)
SHEIK
MARTH
PEACH

no surprise here

2.
PUFF
FALCON

3.
ICE CLIMBERS
DOC
SAMUS
GANON

4.
MARIO
YOUNG LINK/PIKACHU/LUIGI/DK <- idk how to separate these, it's like apples and oranges.

after this i don't really care. well i do but i don't think it's really that important because almost all of them except bowser are just underexplored.

edit: maybe both puff and falcon in tier 2. haha.
edit2: yeah i'll do that.
edit3: fine no ylink exaggeration

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You think Young Link is better than Pikachu.

Choknater you're a funny guy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I still view Puff better than Peach.

 

[choknater]

okay, let me put a disclaimer that young link is the character i will exaggerate the most out of anything.

at least i am honest about my real main, ice climbers

kk, why do you say that? i still think puff can be figured out and has some really bad matchups and is bad against projectiles.

 

[KirbyKaze]

No matter how much Armada's combo game or spacing improves, Peach will forever be limited to some degree by her horrific movement speed. Also, I don't think we're using Puff anywhere near her full potential right now, especially in terms of punishment.

In terms of MUs, I think Peach struggles more with a lot of important, common characters (Sheik & Falcon for sure, Marth probably, and then I think they're the same except Peach ***** ICs) and I also feel Puff beats Peach herself. So even though Puff has a rougher time versus Y.Link, Doc, and ICs... well, I'm not convinced Peach is even that good against Doc and Y.Link anyway.

I'm not going to address the "Puff is bad vs projectiles one" mainly because I'm not sure if I agree with it, and partly because Peach isn't particularly good against them either (super slow movement speed, remember?).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Popo and Nana are the most different

Spoiler

in sex

woah thats cool. If you do the spoiler first and then size, you can see the black text behind the spoiler block. I assume if you do size first there will be a big black box

Spoiler

TESTING MY THEORY!!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach better than Puff? I'm going to have to side with KK on this one, though I do think she handles projectiles a little better just cause she has projectiles of her own. Puff's aerial mobility makes up (in part) for her slow ground movement, but I don't think Peach has anything to make up for hers (maybe her perfect WD?)

 

[choknater]

peach's movement speed is not a big deal as long as she wins each head to head encounter. which she can do with turnip follow ups to gain the upper hand, and great hitboxes/damage in general. armada clearly does not NEED movement speed to win matches, just as hbox doesn't and neither do shroomed or ka-master.

how do you feel puff's punishment game can be improved further?

i agree that puff might slightly edge out the puff vs peach MU, but only slightly.

peach vs spacies is very difficult to compare to puff vs spacies, because the matchups have an entirely different flow
peach - intercept approaches by beating baited attacks with high priority trades or just outspacing them. or stop approaching all together with full jump fc fairs/turnips. then edge guard. fairly slow paced and arduous fight, with peach having to adjust to the spacies

puff - get single hit confirms or grabs into rest death, space with bairs and try to preemptively stuff jumps. avoid lasers because even 2% is significant on puff. very tense matchup because one punish leads to a lot both ways.

i think puff is better vs spacies. hm... vs sheik and marth and falcon as well...

okay, after some thought, puff's web of matchups among the TOP characters is better than peach's. however, puff still loses to braindead strategies like ylink projectiles and ice climbers camping.

(IMO ice climbers desynch camping HARD COUNTERS every character without a projectile except for marth because he just barely has the range to combat blizzard.)

ice climbers vs puff is an easy 60:40, maybe even better for ic's. ylink puff is also 60:40.






lmao

maybe the fact that i main 2 of ic's worst matchups makes me underestimate her


alright


in my own train of thought while writing this post

maybe puff is better than peach

but i'll never lose to her <3

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

I know nobody on this forum values my opinion, but I've been thinking of a new tier list for awhile now and this is what I've come up with so far:

S tier:
1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Marth
4. Falco

A tier:
5. Puff
6. Peach
7. Falcon (I'm still on the fence as to whether Falcon and Peach should be tied or not. I dunno.)

B tier:
8. ICs.

C tier:
9: Doc
10: Samus
11: Ganon

The rest I really couldn't care less. I have explanations if you care enough.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Uh...

Explain why Falco is so low? He literally controls everything on-stage (well, almost everything).

 

[choknater]

that is a good order, wizzrobe. (because it's the same as mine LOL)

as for tier separation, i think there is no real difference between ic's and doc. and i don't think falcon and peach belong in the same tier either, her top potential seems quite a bit higher. tournament results and matchups seem to confirm this.

i was very conservative with them, if i was very liberal with tier separations, i'd keep that order, but it'd look like this.

1.
FOX
FALCO

2.
SHEIK
MARTH

3.
PUFF
PEACH

4.
FALCON

5.
IC'S
DOC

6.
SAMUS
GANON

i know this looks funky but i can kinda feel those differences haha.
this is not a realistic tier list but i believe there could be tier separations here.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Keep in mind that every single character in S tier is extremely close together. You could mix around any spot except for Fox's, who I think should always be number 1.

While I certainly agree that Falco's on-stage game is among the best in the game, he has some of the worst survivability of any high tier character because he gets comboed and chaingrabbed hard by a lot of characters, and he's stupidly easy to gimp with virtually any character. He's offstage and he's basically dead.

EDIT: Um, how was mine the exact same as yours, choknater? Pretty sure I had Puff higher than Peach and Sheik and Marth higher than Falco.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox Falco Sheik
Puff Marth
Peach Falcon
IC
Doc Samus Ganon Pikachu

 

[choknater]

oh lol you're right it's not the same. i only paid attention to below top 8. i think that says something about the tiers (and also about my poor attention span LOL)

anyway

as for falco's survivability, i think that is a pretty small factor for tiering him. he is like strider/phoenix in marvel. low health, high offense. his overwhelming offense enables him to take entire stocks with full momentum through the whole thing. i'm sure falco players kinda accept that if they get hit once they probably made an offensive blunder, or just pulled back a little too much and let the opponent get to them.

at least, that is my mentality when i play falco. i don't think of getting hit, i think of pressuring the hell out of my opponent and if i die, i better have the lead. of course he is gimpable but that is not as considerably significant as his offense.

 

[KirbyKaze]

peach's movement speed is not a big deal as long as she wins each head to head encounter. which she can do with turnip follow ups to gain the upper hand, and great hitboxes/damage in general. armada clearly does not NEED movement speed to win matches, just as hbox doesn't and neither do shroomed or ka-master.

Movement would have helped him a lot against Silent Spectre. On a related note, how is Peach winning every single head to head encounter? Turnips do not just magically materialize in between her and the opponent whenever she needs them like a normal projectile; she has to pull them, which takes time, commitment, etc. They cover a limited space with mediocre priority at best and she only gets one shot of the projectile at a time. Winning every encounter is not that simple (or even plausible).

Maybe if platforms were removed from the game entirely I could see how a systematic Peach turnip thing could cover almost everything in her little zone but there are a lot of angles and positions she actually sucks at covering...

how do you feel puff's punishment game can be improved further?

Have you seen a King match ever?

i agree that puff might slightly edge out the puff vs peach MU, but only slightly.

Fine.

peach vs spacies is very difficult to compare to puff vs spacies, because the matchups have an entirely different flow
peach - intercept approaches by beating baited attacks with high priority trades or just outspacing them. or stop approaching all together with full jump fc fairs/turnips. then edge guard. fairly slow paced and arduous fight, with peach having to adjust to the spacies

puff - get single hit confirms or grabs into rest death, space with bairs and try to preemptively stuff jumps. avoid lasers because even 2% is significant on puff. very tense matchup because one punish leads to a lot both ways.

i think puff is better vs spacies. hm... vs sheik and marth and falcon as well...

That's a lot of useful characters she's better against.

Camping stuff

This isn't totally far-fetched but I'd need to see it to believe it.




edit:

Sheik is too limited in too many respects and too vulnerable to situations where she can't do anything for long period to be the 2nd best character. She might be 3rd, but currently she's kind of exploitable in terms of recovery and some other crap.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If we can use M2K's Sheik as an example, I think her recovery is not actually that bad, in terms of it's versatility. *shrug* I can see her being third, perhaps...

 

[choknater]

Movement would have helped him a lot against Silent Spectre. On a related note, how is Peach winning every single head to head encounter? Turnips do not just magically materialize in between her and the opponent whenever she needs them like a normal projectile; she has to pull them, which takes time, commitment, etc. They cover a limited space with mediocre priority at best and she only gets one shot of the projectile at a time. Winning every encounter is not that simple (or even plausible).

Maybe if platforms were removed from the game entirely I could see how a systematic Peach turnip thing could cover almost everything in her little zone but there are a lot of angles and positions she actually sucks at covering...

fair enough. i didn't think too much about the platforms but that is a good point. they increase the likelihood of opponents getting in since they can all use them better than her. but like we pointed out in the pp thread, she has moves that beat other moves. pretty much her whole moveset has the priority to beat other stuff to either win an encounter or at least trade. in this area, it isn't the movement speed that hinders her but her range. the hitboxes on moves like fair, nair, usmash, dtilt, dash attack are freaking ridiculous.

maybe it was a stretch to say every encounter, but winning most of them is definitely a possibility for peach.

Have you seen a King match ever?

i didn't realize we could refer to the past when talking about pushing puff's punishment game further. but yeah, i see your point. still though, hbox and mango clearly showed that level of punishment (the greatest punishment is death) so maybe you're referring to ways of actually getting that punishment.

This isn't totally far-fetched but I'd need to see it to believe it.

haha yeah, this is why i am sad my set vs sheridan didn't get recorded. my 4-week old young link lost, but my ice climbers bodied the S*** out of that puff. i have demonstrated the same vs every other puff i've played (3-stock at will depending on how dedicated i am to camping), so i still want to play better ones.

edit: i think sheik is a definite 3rd.

 

[Veetaak]

Oh and who are you to talk, you have a falco picture in every single one of your facebook pictures

LOL

I wish I could say that it wasn't true...

 

[KirbyKaze]

fair enough. i didn't think too much about the platforms but that is a good point. they increase the likelihood of opponents getting in since they can all use them better than her. but like we pointed out in the pp thread, she has moves that beat other moves. pretty much her whole moveset has the priority to beat other stuff to either win an encounter or at least trade. in this area, it isn't the movement speed that hinders her but her range. the hitboxes on moves like fair, nair, usmash, dtilt, dash attack are freaking ridiculous.

Her nair is the most overrated move in terms of hitbox brokenness in the game. It's just really fast. Seriously. If you space against it with almost any of the good characters (using a "normal" or "standard" zoning move like Sheik bair or Falco u-tilt) it's really not that hard to beat.

maybe it was a stretch to say every encounter, but winning most of them is definitely a possibility for peach.

Yeah but that's a reasonable argument for any good character because every character has some sort of condition where their move will stuff or beat the opponent's stuff. I'd argue Peach's ability to win clashes is probably one of the most dynamic just because there's such a difference in how effectively she can use her truly ridiculous hitboxes when she's got her float spacing set up versus when she's not got her float spacing set up (or other forms of spacing, but yeah).

i didn't realize we could refer to the past when talking about pushing puff's punishment game further. but yeah, i see your point. still though, hbox and mango clearly showed that level of punishment (the greatest punishment is death) so maybe you're referring to ways of actually getting that punishment.

It's kind of both.

I feel a lot of combo setups King did with Puff (especially with edgecancels and whatever) have not been emulated effectively. I don't feel this is the case of "Oh, the metagame has obsoleted it because <easier-gayer-strategy> is better". I think a lot of his combo setups and whatever are still viable and legitimately the best option in some situations but they go unused anyway.

 

[choknater]

but her nair beats samus' fully charged shot!! no clank, just straight up beats it! cmon man too broken

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus might be better than Ganon but she's still garbage.

 

[choknater]

*looking forward to plup going to nationals*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Plup can be good and place well despite using a bad character. Look at Kage.

 

[choknater]

yes, on the assumption that samus and ganon are "bad," which is also highly subjective.

they got this man.

i can go out on a limb and say sheik is bad and what can you do about it!

Spoiler

yah samus and ganon are kinda bad

 

[Divinokage]

Plup can be good and place well despite using a bad character. Look at Kage.

I'm pretty sexy, right? =)

 

[choknater]

hngggg

 

[kevo]

I think moving Pikachu, Ganon, Peach etc up on the tier list kind of diminishes how BEAST Axe, Kage, and Armada really are. Yes, of course they discover new things and change the metagame to a degree, but if Ganon was A tier or something, Kage is just another really good player playing a good character. Mid/Low-tier mains feed off their unconventional play and underdog mentality.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i can go out on a limb and say sheik is bad and what can you do about it!

If you do that, either:

1) I'm doing well with a bad character so I'm slightly more amazing than I think I am

2) That doesn't really work anyway because Sheik's objectively a good character given her MUs and how her pros massively outweigh her drawbacks. With Ganon and Samus you can kind of make a case for being anywhere from bad to severely underrated depending on how you stack their pros vs. their cons (and factor in flagship players like Kage, Linguini, HugS, etc).

So I don't mind, really.




edit:

I was kidding about the Samus sucks thing, btw. I was gonna edit an earlier post and just say "special moves have weird rules" but since we already started going on a weird tangent, I figured I'd let it run its course.

 

[choknater]

sheik is bad

you're amazing

amazingly gay!

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The definition of a tier list is:
A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

So if Taj places as well as he did at Genesis2 in a few other nationals does that mean Mewtwo is more likely to perform well based on recent relevant tournament results?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I am amazingly gay. So gay, in fact, that I'm craving a gargantuan bucket of man milk straight from the source(s)!

But I'm also feeling incredibly lazy so I don't wanna go out.

:/

 

[choknater]

hm

with that tier list definition, tournaments are probably the way to go.

however in my mind, that's not the criteria i use to base my ranking of the characters. i feel like that is too past-oriented when i prefer discovery of the new.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Tournament results was always a horrible way to do it and it never should have been implied to be the most significant factor (or one of the most significant factors).

"How good is <character> at winning a set?" In general, and also against other characters. If there's anything weird about them that has to be taken into account like having auto-lose levels (not much of an issue now but in the past that was something we needed to address) or requiring a much higher technical endurance (which is one of the big arguments in the Falco > Fox as a character camp) then that should also be considered.

I think, in theory, tournament results should loosely reflect the tier list's power separations because our game is way too gay to let someone hit the top 32 circles going a truly abysmal character like Bowser in the same way that I really don't think Link can get top 16 at a 250+ man National just because there's too many simple strategies that give him a huge headache (and that he doesn't really have a counter for).

...But our game kind of fails at using tournament results in that way too because we don't have online and therefore still have regional differences. Matchup unfamiliarity consequently affects results a lot more than it should because not everyone can practice versus a quality Ganon, etc. Tournament results are still usable data and they show interesting trends so they shouldn't be discarded or anything but... I think there are more important factors than tournament results.



.

 

[choknater]

that math equation that ankoku has for tournament result ranking lists is clearly better for a ranking list based on tournament results.

speculations based on new thoughts and ideas about the characters based on experience and analysis of each character's design and matchups, like the stuff being posted in this thread as of late, are much better for tier lists IMO.

at least, that's how it's always felt for melee.

i wanna be in the MBR

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

that math equation that ankoku has for tournament result ranking lists is clearly better for a ranking list based on tournament results.

anyone remember when i did that for this game? and then the list was fox falco puff top 3? then everyone screamed the tier list was wrong when it reflected it?

 

[choknater]

yeah. peach would easily be top 3 now if that thing were still in effect. armada never freaking loses now.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach would probably be 2nd because he's only had 2nds, a 1st, and a 4th here.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nah she would probably be 5th. The sheer number of high placing marths and sheiks would probably put them above peach. This is because armada is an outlier and there arent really any other peach's that get lots of points for her. Puff probably will drop below them all, though, since theres basially only hbox and he had a slump period recently (compared to being APEX champ last year i think)

 

[Divinokage]

I am amazingly gay. So gay, in fact, that I'm craving a gargantuan bucket of man milk straight from the source(s)!

But I'm also feeling incredibly lazy so I don't wanna go out.

:/

Nah you are washed up, remember? lol. How dare you do this mindgame to me when I obviously saw right through you that I'm going to get massively *****?