Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Max?]

*catches up*

Really great assessment of the mid/low tiers Kirbykaze. I noticed you didn't place Luigi tho, what gives? Where would you put him given the option?

 

[Strong Badam]

DK sucks

but so does young link
the only char that YL does better against that is relevant is Puff, but he gets ***** harder by Sheik and Fox than DK does. also same for Falcon.

 

[Max?]

imo DK is trash and I would argue the Link's as better.

 

[choknater]

ylink doesn't suck!!! especially not vs falcon.

these are his matchups vs the top characters IMO

fox - 40:60
falco - 38:62
sheik - 38:62
puff - 60:40
peach - 50:50
falcon - 45:55
ice climbers - i need to look more into this, but i think it's either even or ylink's favor. i used to think ic's **** him but recent experience has proven me wrong
samus - 60:40
doc - not sure, probably doc's advantage though because of damage.
ganon - 60:40

his matchups are just pretty bad vs top 3. if that constitutes being sucky then sure, but the rest of his matchups he can do quite well.

how to fight the the top 3

fox - don't be afraid to challenge him with nair and uair. straight rang and bomb will make him think about his approach. shine spike and grab are very deadly so be weary of those when spacing/recovering.

falco - run away and try to pull bombs. bombs are the only way to get through lasers straight on. trying rang or arrow from different angles is alright but bombs are way better because you can control their trajectory. lasers control this matchup, so if falco gets in on a ylink without a bomb, it's really bad news.

sheik - don't get grabbed UGHHHHHH

i can explain the other matchups too if you'd like.

 

[Winston]

As for Luigi I'm really not sure at how I feel about him. I think his on stage game is fantastic, probably comparable to Doc's, but he is just so gimpable and his revocery can be exploited so danm hard. If someone could truly fine legitimate ways to recover with Luigi then he has the potential to be at the top of mid-tier imo.

Luigi's recovery is approximately as good Doc's or Ganon's. The 1/8th chance of misfire makes up for Doc's active hitbox during his up B or Ganon's weight. (Doc's is probably a bit better, but I don't think the difference is big enough point to it as the sole reason Luigi can't compete.)

Luigi is far more gimpable than Doc, but about gimpable as Ganon. People just cite Luigi as being particularly susceptible to gimping because he slides far from fox's shine, but most of the time you can fastfall and grab the edge. Traditionally this is a bad place to be, but I'm of the opinion that if you get consistent enough with his ledgedash this isn't too bad a spot (and if they aren't accustomed to fighting it, it's a fairly advantageous spot.)

Luigi > Mario on the list for sure. I already said why I think Mario sucks. Doc is better than Luigi though because he's better at KOing, less vulnerable to being trapped in the air, and his grab punishment game isn't DI dependent like Luigi's.

Luigi vs. Pikachu is hard to say cause there's an absolutely amazing Pikachu player, and compared to him the Luigi players are mediocre. (Everyone from WC says Eddy Mexico is insanely good and I believe them, but I don't think he's on Axe's level in terms of how much he's optimized his character). But from theorycrafting I'd put Pikachu > Luigi based on matchups. Both do really bad vs. Sheik. Luigi does better vs. Peach, Jiggs, ICs, and Doc. Pikachu does better vs. Fox, Falco, Marth, and Falcon. I don't know how the Ganon or Samus matchups go for Pika. Long story short, Pikachu's comparatively better matchups have greater representation. There's also an argument to be made for Pikachu > Luigi because Luigi is a more one-dimensional character and so is easier to use abusive strats against (intelligent laser camping Falco, or platform camping from the faster characters on big stages).

So I think it's something like

Doc ? Samus > Ganon ? Pikachu > Luigi > Mario > DK

 

[choknater]

on luigi's recovery:

what makes a character's recovery bad isn't always the movement options, it's also the ease of edgeguarding

luigi has 4 options to recover
- air dodge. same pros and cons that every other character has
- side b - 1/8 chance of misfire which neither character can predict. so it's an anomaly. otherwise it just moves horizontally and has very bad priority so it's easy to intercept
- down b - good height, but not great for getting back on the stage since it can be easily intercepted
- up b - just goes straight up and vertical DI after the move is extremely bad, just like zelda's up-B going straight up. very easy to intercept and also can be light shield edge hogged like marth. even if a character is hit by this move, they won't flinch so you can basically just come down and hit him

luigi is very easy to edgeguard unless he misfires, which is again an anomaly.

doc
samus, ganon, pika
mario, ylink
dk, luigi

IMO

i also think doc belongs in the same tier as ic's

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't think doc is significantly better than samus, and not comparable to ICs.

 

[choknater]

i might be biased since i come from norcal where shroomed and HMW reside

i've always thought of him as a strong character that has potential to win tournys and with good matchups against all the higher tiered characters

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^Whats your thoughts on YL v. Marth?

The way I always thought of the tier list is as so:

The 8 top tiers - everyone ICs and up
The 6 super viables (characters you can make your main without any real need of a secondary) - everyone Luigi and up
The 7 "specialists" (characters who have major flaws overall but are still great at certain matchups; ex: Y.L v. Puff, Link v. Marth/Samus, Zelda v. ICs, Roy v. Falcon, etc) - Yoshi and up
The 5 at the bottom (characters that struggle, and struggle hard, at just about every matchup) - Kirby, Pichu, Bowser, Ness, and G&W

Nearly every national has one player or more of each of the top 14 make bracket. Those are the core matchups that every tournament player can expect the face often. The next 7 after that are used selectively but are still seen in bracket, usually as a surprise secondary, so they are still relevant to know but much less so. You can just **** around and press buttons to beat the bottom 5.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i personally dont believe luigi is worse than young link. Young Link has some decent match ups vs floaties but the rest of the cast can stomp him in very one sided matchups, which i believe luigi has less of.

 

[SamusPoop]

To be fair seeing the best doc marios would farther your point compared to average doc players so I would think you have more right to say that.


luigi can hit hard and slip in pretty fast and is meant to be patince YL however makes me think of peach in the way if you can punish him everytime he trys to pull out a bomb you'll win and a lot of if it is knowing when he'll jump.

 

[choknater]

i usually judge the potential of the characters based on personal experience and my own unique opinionated concepts of the characters, which are usually different from others'

edit: about punishing ylink's bomb pull, it's VERY different from peach's turnip pull in that he can pull one out while jumping. and even if you know when ylink will jump, he a fast aerial in nair and a disjointed aerial in fair, as well as various projectiles which can block your attack.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Winston, I am very surprised you think Mario sucks with Boss in our region...

I think Mario is a very underestimated character. He combos for days, especially against top tiers. What he lacks in bair gimp setups he can cover with dair.

 

[choknater]

IMO one of mario's weaknesses is short duration of attacks. for example this is why ic's aerial game is weak apart from uair.

also short range and weak projectile game

he is underestimated, sure, but outclassed in other regards.

 

[Veetaak]

Choknater you should show everyone YL's hidden potential :D

 

[choknater]

^Whats your thoughts on YL v. Marth?

oh oops, i missed that one. i think it's 55:45 marth. marth can swat his projectiles which is really useful for getting in. once marth gets in, he can force ylink to run away and corner himself (by cornering i mean moving closer to the ledge, or using up his double jump) and also outrange all his attack. ylink also has a weakness against grabs because grabs are like automatic momentum for the other character in order to prevent ylink from running away

what works in ylink's favor though is that he obviously wins the long range game very hard. by forcing marth to block/evade/swat attacks, it gives ylink breathing room to throw more stuff. just like ylink vs puff, the matchup is played best when staying out of certain ranges, and then hitconfirming projectiles into aerials. projectile -> uair against marth is very high damaging and puts ylink in a great situation.

he also has a very fast nair which he can use to rush in if he wants. this might not seem safe to most people but think of the way that fox and falco use nairs to get in. ylink's shffl is not as fast, but the nair itself is comparable to theirs.

i personally dont believe luigi is worse than young link. Young Link has some decent match ups vs floaties but the rest of the cast can stomp him in very one sided matchups, which i believe luigi has less of.

ylink has 3 "one sided" matchups in fox, falco, and sheik. luigi is better againts them, sure. but i feel that luigi struggles heavily against ALL projectile based characters. even a desynched ice climbers spamming blizzard and ice block can beat him. the fact that his only horizontal movement on the ground is very easy to exploit.

he's played similarly to ice climbers, but without projectiles

edit: veetaak, i plan to. i see more in his character than most people do, but i am still working in the lab on executing it. i lost to a puff (hyuga) and a ganon (bizzarro flame) recently. however that ylink only had about 3 weeks of exploration and not much tourny experience. i've been improving lately and i think i can take hyuga now, not sure about bizz.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i might be biased since i come from norcal where shroomed and HMW reside

i've always thought of him as a strong character that has potential to win tournys and with good matchups against all the higher tiered characters

Yeah but samus has a better match-up against spacies, similar difficulty against marth, doc might do a bit better against sheik and most likely puff too. I can see doc being better than samus overall, but not by a tier division.

 

[choknater]

yeah, i don't see a tier division between them either.

also, doc vs marth is not that bad. it's very, very similar to peach vs marth. it might seem bad at first, but pills/turnips as well as high damage and good positioning options really help their marth matchups a lot.

 

[rhan]

I dont get why you put Doc over Samus.

Between those three though I think Ganon beats Samus. Samus beats Doc and Doc beats Ganon.
It's like the starter Pokemon from any generation

This was regarding KK's post a page or so back..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think samus vs marth is quite that bad either.

 

[SamusPoop]

I think marth is overhyped a bit he has a problem like ice climbers where none of his useful moves (in said case) last long enough to wall off as well as it seems even moreso against projectiles

 

[choknater]

samuspoop: marth is definitely not overhyped. he is an incredibly strong character. his ability to 0-death spacies is nearly unrivaled by pretty much the entire cast (except maybe the spacies themselves LOL.) and also his ability to actually get combo STARTERS on them. that "overhype" you might see is that people sometimes ignore that he does have a few weaknesses, albeit small ones.

sveet: yes i agree, it's not that bad. haha i didn't say anything about her, i was just describing the other matchups.

haha

when thinking of ssbm tiers, i am reminded so much of yun and yang.

 

[KirbyKaze]

*catches up*

Really great assessment of the mid/low tiers Kirbykaze. I noticed you didn't place Luigi tho, what gives? Where would you put him given the option?

I literally forgot he existed.

 

[choknater]

not as bad as me. i forgot marth existed for a second there. LOL

 

[SamusPoop]

I mean I argee with his placement maybe with debates against puff but I feel like he's treated like Gannon is to power as marth is range and space level of seriousness like over respecting the power and range of both.

 

[choknater]

not sure if i understood that post

his range is good, and has reason to be respected

but it also has reason to be disrespected because the speed of his moves is not the best

 

[Winston]

on luigi's recovery:

what makes a character's recovery bad isn't always the movement options, it's also the ease of edgeguarding

luigi has 4 options to recover
- air dodge. same pros and cons that every other character has
- side b - 1/8 chance of misfire which neither character can predict. so it's an anomaly. otherwise it just moves horizontally and has very bad priority so it's easy to intercept
- down b - good height, but not great for getting back on the stage since it can be easily intercepted
- up b - just goes straight up and vertical DI after the move is extremely bad, just like zelda's up-B going straight up. very easy to intercept and also can be light shield edge hogged like marth. even if a character is hit by this move, they won't flinch so you can basically just come down and hit him

luigi is very easy to edgeguard unless he misfires, which is again an anomaly.

Yea, all that is true. But Ganon's recovery is far, far worse in terms of ease of edgeguarding. After a certain percent, Sheik and Marth become easier to edgeguard as well. My point is, why aren't those things always brought up every time the tier positions for those characters are discussed? Because it's just accepted. It's not like Luigi's recovery is worse than Falcon's, Ganon's, Marth's, etc. by so much that it justifies dropping him by that many places. Luigi's recovery sucks, but I think most characters' recoveries suck. I'm of the opinion that most people are just not good enough at the edgeguarding algorithms vs. non-space animal characters, so they don't really appreciate how bad they really are.

The fact that Luigi can misfire 1/8th unpredictably of the time means that people edgeguarding him either have to change what they are doing to account for this, giving up the ruthless efficiency of edgeguarding algorithms they might otherwise be able to do (such as jumping out and hitting ganon every time he down Bs), or they let him back 1/8th of the time. Sometimes they will even get KOed while edgeguarding because of it.

In general, Luigi either gets to down B first to gain a lot of height, then gets a couple chances to misfire as he makes his way back, or he gets to charge side B to get under the stage and then use his double jump/down B/airdodge to mix it up vs. characters who can't drop down shine him/don't have good ledgestalls. It's not good but it's not the worst among the playable characters.

Doc's recovery is better, but his options are entirely predictable at every point, and in many cases they all lose to good use of ledge invincibility. Pills are annoying but can be worked around by cutting through them, lightshield edgehogging, etc. I admitted that on average his recovery is better, but again I don't think the difference is as big as people make it out to be when you throw in the 1/8th unpredictability factor of Luigi's misfire.

Winston, I am very surprised you think Mario sucks with Boss in our region...

He is good, but it's not like he's a top level competitor with Mario. I don't see why his existence should change my opinion about how good Mario is at top level. Besides, he mains Doc in tourney as far as I can tell...

In the couple times I've played him I've gone about even vs. his Mario with Fox/Falcon, in large part because of all the weaknesses of Mario I mentioned, and most people would say he's a better player than me.

I think Mario is a very underestimated character. He combos for days, especially against top tiers. What he lacks in bair gimp setups he can cover with dair.

His combos are extremely conditional to begin with. Top it off with the fact that a good sized combo from him will often result in ~ 1/2 of their stock being taken away, and he's not a good character. (What I mean by ~1/2 isn't in terms of damage necessarily, but how much work he has to do still to actually get the KO).

 

[SamusPoop]

not sure if i understood that post

his range is good, and has reason to be respected

but it also has reason to be disrespected because the speed of his moves is not the best

Marth in air RUNNING SHEILD AT HIM marth on ground sheild whatever non grab move if goes for grab throw out long lasting tilt or waveback.

He feels underwhelming like roy in some respects and relies so heavily on his grab if you can understand that much of my point. unless they are a slidey like luigi he can also d-tilt like he does grabs. or if they are just too slow like kirby,

Just doesn't seem as flexible as everyone near his level as far as approach or getting going.

 

[KirbyKaze]

SamusPoop:

I think you're pushing his recovery out a bit more than it should get landing on stage/platform(hardly an option) you either die or get reset into a place of their
choosing his pills are decent but I would think marth, sheik, and maybe falco could easily bair through the pill only to hit doc in the face. puff would likly go out there to get him so it
wouldn't matter much fox could edge stall the pill and beat him like nomral. I really don't see why he would have a note worthy recovery other than his down-B being hard and
could count as a stall unless i'm missing something. but I feel like shroomed has shwon how pills can be useful traps in keeping people would you want removing his speed issues
moreso than marios with them semi locked down.

Even if Doc's recovery is explicitly worse than Samus's (which I don't even agree with if we consider gimp setups and ledge pressure to be components of recovering and edgeguarding) I still think his versatility and generic answers to problems put him above Samus. He's more conducive to bullcrap wins than Samus because of his spontaneous death combos and severely damaging 2-steps, but he doesn't have the handicap of being made of glass like Ganon.

I like how mario compared to doc is basically saying do you want to combo them for damage or space/control? space/control/pressure seem to be better than raw
damage if I'm looking at it right.

Space control is generally better than raw damage. Being able to kill your enemy is important. Spontaneous KOs help you win.

I feel you should compare DK to gannon here just with a bit better ground speed, but lacking a fast jab but being replaced with a fast up-B(has it's ups and downs
like oos and to escape air combos a bit but lacks range and safeness) and DK gets comboed forever too and doesn't have any match-ups that anyone would use him just for
like YL or maybe even zedla vs ice climbers. I feel he should be below the links even if I've slowly seen more impressive DK players lately(they might work him up in time). Links
can get the ball rolling much easier and aen't as easy to get going on.

I am unsure of how to order DK in relation to the Links, so perhaps. I am not really willing to budge on YLink > Link though.

Link an be said to be better for having better match-ups that count for more like you said vs fox, but I think he could also be lower to the fact YL is more useful
as a gimmick vs the fairly rare puff and peach. I think the only way we'd know is to know just how many people really use LY for those matches as couterpicks if it's only a few
maybe it really isn't worth saying YL is overall better in our current metagame due to lack of use for his claim to frame.

In terms of the YLink vs Link MU thing, the important word was "approaching". Fox is so much faster than Link, he can actually play to never be hit if he plays a super homosexual camping game. Link's toys are too slow, and his movement is bad at best.

Against a campy Fox, I would almost certainly want to be YLink instead of Link.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I bet if you took statistics on tournament videos of good players, Doc would be the character who made it back the most other than Pikachu of the top 14. As much as the theory of the routine edgeguards against him make sense, he makes it back A LOT with the current player base. ****, the most common thing that happens is Foxes get countergimped, Marths overextend themselves, and Falcos just look confused. The only character I've seen effectively edgeguard him nowadays is Sheik, and even that isn't overwhelmingly ****.

In the couple times I've played him I've gone about even vs. his Mario with Fox/Falcon, in large part because of all the weaknesses of Mario I mentioned, and most people would say he's a better player than me.

His combos are extremely conditional to begin with. Top it off with the fact that a good sized combo from him will often result in ~ 1/2 of their stock being taken away, and he's not a good character. (What I mean by ~1/2 isn't in terms of damage necessarily, but how much work he has to do still to actually get the KO).

What exactly is conditional about his combos? They aren't very DI dependent...

 

[SamusPoop]

My bad for misreading the link thing. But I still think LY will only hold your idea place as long as puff/peach are still doing well.

DK just keeps getting hit like gannon just a bigger target, shorter techs, and worse sheild. And DK can't really get going without a grab or which can only be gotten by a close bair if they don't react fastish or tech chase from a gaint punch. Without a grab he's lost links can geet rolling by a few more means and have more well rounded punishment that isn't as limited to against floaties. Dk comboing ffers is nothing new even ness can do that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I hate discussing things when people ignore my posts

 

[SamusPoop]

I don't think anyone way talking about samus vs marth nor did you explain yourself.

explain how you hate discussing things so when we see that long post we know we are sitting down for quite the story.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That samus one was replying to chok who said that doc vs marth isnt that bad and he compared it to peach vs marth. My post was basically saying i think samus vs marth is comparable to those. Samus has many things she can do to marth.

 

[SamusPoop]

You could've gone on to say it, but there's always enough love for anyone no more saltiness.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I hope your MBR posts are as constructive as "Samus has many things she can do to Marth"

 

[Winston]

I bet if you took statistics on tournament videos of good players, Doc would be the character who made it back the most other than Pikachu of the top 14. As much as the theory of the routine edgeguards against him make sense, he makes it back A LOT with the current player base. ****, the most common thing that happens is Foxes get countergimped, Marths overextend themselves, and Falcos just look confused. The only character I've seen effectively edgeguard him nowadays is Sheik, and even that isn't overwhelmingly ****.

If we're talking about practice rather than theory, Luigi makes it back a lot also. Against good to top level players. Both from personal experience and from watching videos/matches in person.

What exactly is conditional about his combos? They aren't very DI dependent...

Uair combos require DI in, techchasing requires guessing, chaingrabbing only works on FD really. So what's he got, platform waveland regrabs? Those are sort of ok, but even if you get all of them right in a row (which requires some prediction as to when they will tech in place/miss the tech) the reward isn't huge.

Am I missing something? I think my Mario is reasonable as far as Marios go.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

MBR is so much easier to discuss cause when you say something you dont have everyone questioning you for details down to the input. People generally know what works and what doesnt, ect.

For example, if i said "samus can trap marth in his shield and zone him out of the middle of the stage", the MBR would basically be like "yeah that sucks but marth can do ____ to samus" but public forums people are like "no marth can just do ____ and get out"

 

[SamusPoop]

You left it as it's not that bad, bad normally reffers to 14 places down or so and we can mostly argee I can see that and it's seems like a waste to just say I argee so in truth you didn't give us much to work with, unless you're the type that expects us to try to decode your words to something greater like comparing samus vs marth to the past said match-up in the sense of sheild games and what have you.

However i'd much rather go on to a real solid topic we can wrap ourselfes around more than it's not that bad. Also you're part of the public forums yourself it seems how about we all step it up.

 

[Deleted member]

i think falcon would absolutely take a diarrhea dump on young link

thats just my take on it though